best muscle gaining program?

[joej627]

Hey guys,

Recovering from probably lyme, adrenal issues, toxic overload, etc.  Not much spare energy in the tank.  Trying to regain some of my muscle weight from before i was ill.  Lifting heavy weights is out of the question as my nervous system needs resting.  So basically I'm using bodyweight training, good nutrition, and loads of rest, with some qigong to facilitate recovery.  Any ideas on eating plans, regimes, etc?

-Joe

[HIT_it_RAW]

Lots of organ, lots of fat

[Ferocious]

I find I am able to lift better on an empty stomach. Eating beforehand doesn't make me feel as strong, and I'm sure there's a reason behind that.

So don't eat before you lift and lift heavy. 5 sets, 5 reps on bench, squats, deadlifts... is what I've found to be most worthwhile. I like to keep it simple. Just eat raw and lift heavy! You'll see results fast.

[HIT_it_RAW]

I like to keep it simple. Just eat raw and lift heavy! You'll see results fast.

yes obviously but he just said he cant lift heavy. nervous system ehaustion is not a joke.

@joe Have you tried eating marrow?

[Polyvore]

I am not sure about the difference between being on raw vs cooked food and training, but as a trainer, I would suggest "nervous system exhaustion" is a non-concept. The body will get weaker before it gets stronger, and you have to work through that. Strength gains are the quickest gains a beginner will develop, and high frequency is integral to learning motor patterns and developing strength.
If you are exhausted, even then you should be able to train. The best way to train through this period is to do concentric-only training. I remember for a period I trained maximally, the same movements, 5-7 days a week like an olympic weightlifter would. The several times my numbers started dropping I would simply do concentric-only training for a few days before switching back and this worked for me, and I came out much much stronger.

Obviously I don't expect anyone to train 7 days a week like me, but everyone should be doing low volume training as often as they can unless they have a specific goal such as sports or bodybuilding.

[Ferocious]

yes obviously but he just said he cant lift heavy. nervous system ehaustion is not a joke.

@joe Have you tried eating marrow?

Ah, sorry, I guess I didn't read it properly.

[joej627]

Not with what i have Polyvore.  Reserve energy = recovery as long as i moderately exercise.  Bodyweight is plenty to get muscle growth for me right now.  Basically i'm focusing on supersetting different exercises.  Pushups/pullups, chair dips/wide grip pull ups, lunges/ab work, etc.  Popping back and forth quickly creates a pretty challenging workout for me right now.  My nervous system just does not want the hardcore recruitment right now that lifting heavy brings into play.  I will get there eventually.  And besides that, I plan on adding in sprints once a week or so soon.  I know that will help gain muscle mass, growth hormone, etc.

Hit_IT_RAW, yea i have some bone marrow around but i don't eat it much it seems like.  I still sear my red meats and it doesn't seem that the raw marrow exactly goes with it.  I have an amazing mix though from a lady around here that is liver/heart/tongue/ground beef.  Pretty fatty.  What else would you use marrow with?

-Joe

[HIT_it_RAW]

I am not sure about the difference between being on raw vs cooked food and training, but as a trainer, I would suggest "nervous system exhaustion" is a non-concept.

The difference is huge I know from personal experience! Nervous exhaustion is a very real thing.

The body will get weaker before it gets stronger, and you have to work through that.

Not necessarily true. exercise damage the body so yes that is weakening to a very limited amount. However the first thing the body does is recover. only after full recovery are strength gains possible. If you have an exhausted nervous system, rest, sleep, and good nutrition are the first requirements. Only when recovered to a reasonable degree should exercise be resumed. And at a very infrequent rate, allowing plenty of rest.

Strength gains are the quickest gains a beginner will develop, and high frequency is integral to learning motor patterns and developing strength.

Yes those are the fastest gains because neurological efficiency improves. this is only possible with fully functional, fully recovered nervous system. Frequency is linked to intensity, is one is high the other must be low. And it happens to be true that it takes high intensity, and thus low frequency, to develop strength. Try doing both and you will overtax your recover ability/nervous system.

If you are exhausted, even then you should be able to train. The best way to train through this period is to do concentric-only training. I remember for a period I trained maximally, the same movements, 5-7 days a week like an olympic weightlifter would. The several times my numbers started dropping I would simply do concentric-only training for a few days before switching back and this worked for me, and I came out much much stronger.

Obviously I don't expect anyone to train 7 days a week like me, but everyone should be doing low volume training as often as they can unless they have a specific goal such as sports or bodybuilding.

Concentric only training is always a mistake regardless of circumstance. The eccentric part of the movement is safer(no jerking possible thus no impact forces) and more productive in any type of recovery/rehabilitation. This has been proved numerous times. It should however be noted that eccentric training is harder/intenser so if you don't reduce frequency you will overtrain again.

Training 7 days a week is never more productive than training less frequent and harder. No rest days are a good way to, over time, totally exhaust the body's resources.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Hit_IT_RAW, yea i have some bone marrow around but i don't eat it much it seems like.  I still sear my red meats and it doesn't seem that the raw marrow exactly goes with it.  I have an amazing mix though from a lady around here that is liver/heart/tongue/ground beef.  Pretty fatty.  What else would you use marrow with?

-Joe

no special use just eat it. Its great for recovery. in some primitive cultures babys that cannot be breast fed receive marrow instead.

[Polyvore]

Training 7 days a week is never more productive than training less frequent and harder. No rest days are a good way to, over time, totally exhaust the body's resources.

You obviously have not trained clients yourself, and you have not trained in olympic weightlifting. Ask any national weightlifting coach and you will realise this is a false statement. I may be a newbie in terms of raw nutrition but I have years of experience strength training. Bulgarian, Chinese and Australian teams (and many more!) all work up to 5-7 day a week training, and if you define intensity as being how close you are to maximal strength lifting, then high intensity and high frequency go hand in hand.

Do not say a normal person cannot train like an olympic lifter. A normal person may not acheive even close to olympic level standard strength, but I have trained tens of 'burned out' untrained individuals and literally tripled their strength by doing this kind of training.

When the body gets weaker at first, this is an adaptation mechanism, not a result of damage. Similar to how the body will have sickness symptoms, not because of the damage due to infection, but as a way to adapt to and reject the infection from the body. The nervous system  gets inhibited by the body so that the structure of the nervous system can change and old nervous tissue junk can be rejected as waste. When the adaptation has occured it will uninhibit, and you will become stronger, whether you stopped training to 'recover' or not. Training through the recovery period makes adaptation faster, because the frequency of the stimulus is constant and so it knows what to adapt to. Obviously you don't want to overreach yourself by, for example, linear progression, when in the adaptation period, but some level of stimulus is important.

[joej627]

I will try adding in more marrow, butter, etc.  I think saturated fats are helping my nervous system and i'm eating lots of protein to recover.  Lots of raw eggs, some raw kefir.  I see everybody's points here.  It really is just about listening to your body.  Paul Chek, a guy i respect from the health field would say that if you get back to working out and you are not 1-3% stronger/faster than you were last time, then you don't belong working out.  I find this true for me as well.  Right now, bodyweight exercises are the "stimulus" I need.  I plan on adding kettlebells once i get a little better.  And i can tell you right now for sure, if i tried to train heavy weights 5 days a week i would completely stop and probably reverse all of my recovery.  Currently, the best program seems to be bodyweight supersets 3 times a week.  The first "heavy" exercise i add will be sprints and kettlebell exercises.  And after I feel REALLY recovered, I will probably add in very basic weight exercises (squat, deadlift, bench) but these will be supplemental exercises.  I think focusing on form, nutrition, recovery and not focusing on raw lifting power is the best way to achieve healthy, solid gains.  I am not interested in being an olympic powerlifter.  More like UFC style fitness.

-Joe

[Chris]

Joe, you don't need to go heavy to build muscle. Use gravity with moderate weights. Concentrate on your form and movements. The slower you go, the harder it gets. Don't kill yourself with very heavy weights. Every time when I would go to the gym, I can't tell you how many people I would see doing exercises wrong. If it get's too easy, slow down your movements. Slow going up, and slow going down.You will get much more out of your workout, and you will target those muscles that you want to build much better. Too many people use gravity the wrong way (using momentum, and bouncing weights off their chest). Nutrition wise, I think you have some enough good info with the following posts. Pasture feed meats and fat's are always a great foundation to start with. Good Luck.

[joej627]

Thanks chris,

Yea i agree.  I plan on just doing supersets bodyweight for now.  Maybe 3 sets each.  Alternating.  Like push/pull 3x, abs/low back 3x, legs 3x.  When I can comfortably do that 3 times a week without overtraining I will move up.