Vegetable Oils

[Chris]

How do you guy's and Gal's feel about adding plant based oils to meats to increase fat content? Examples: extra virgin olive oil, avocado oil, extra virgin coconut oil, or any of the virgin nut oils. I'm currently using organic grass fed ghee, and organic duck fat ( from pasture raised of course). Granted these are not "raw", so I guess they would be frowned upon on this forum. I'm trying to get additional idea's on "fat's" an what's out there that is currently used and acceptable in this diet. I can get raw butter when it's available. I love that stuff! I don't have current access to just fat from grass fed animals (my local store's don't carry them), unless I order it online. Whole foods has stopped carrying organ meats, and I never see tongue, marrow, ect., available. Also, are grass fed fats much more preferable, than the plant based fat's listed above? Thanks!

[CarnivorousApe]

Raw full cream sour milk or sourcream might be helpful, in addition to butter.

I heard that vegetable oils have bad omega3/6 ratio, I think macadamia, olive and avocado oils are relatively ok.
How about just eating avocados, olives and nuts instead of using oils?

I got some raw free range pork fat, I salt parts with skin on (raw) and render internal fat to get lard (not raw). I was thinking about mincing raw internal fat with salt and spices, should produce nice spread.

Chris, just curious, what diet did you try before switching to raw paleo?

[Chris]

CarnivorousApe, thanks for your reply. My last diet was a form of the Ayurveda diet, which was based on the warming and cooling of foods on the body. I've been on, and tried just about every diet you can possibility think of. The all raw fruit, vegetarian, macrobiotic diet, ect. None have met my expectations to be quite honest with you, and they never got me to where I wanted, or expected to be with them. Let me tell you a little more about myself. I'm allergic to Soy, Pasteurized Dairy, raw milk I'm actually fine with, I don't get the negative reactions at all. I have digestion problems when it comes to grains/beans, and when I eat a little too much of fruit for some reason. My diet the last 15 years has been so vague and different, I've searched high and low. But, I've tried to keep it as clean as I can, especially these last few years. I try to eat only grass fed meats (beef, lamb, buffalo when I can find it 100% pasture based), wild fish (mostly salmon/sardines), pasture based eggs (no soy/corn based), organ meats when I can find them (grass fed of course). I've stayed away from chicken recently, due to the fact it is so hard to find poultry that isn't grain based from Soy/Corn. I haven't tried raw pork yet, but the pork that is available in my local stores is not wild, and is grain fed. So far that I've been on this diet, it has been a positive experience, and I look forward to the future. Sometimes to be quite honest with you, I wish I was like everyone else ( that I could eat whatever I wanted to, without consequences). Which is unrealistic, because there's always consequences to every action. But, then again at the same time, I'm glad i'm not like everyone else. I am different, and it's taken me a while to accept "me" for who I am. I just try to do the best that I can, day in and day out. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me, I really appreciate your feed back. My purpose is to get to know as much as I can about this diet. My original question about EVOO, EV coconut oil, and EV nut oils, is to gage in the community what is acceptable and what is not. I know certain nuts and seeds have high phytic acid levels that make digestion and nutrients hard to assimilate. I don't know if the oils have that same problem, so that's why i asked. Thanks again!

[eveheart]

I like the taste of grassfed beef back fat and bone marrow. It took some looking around to find a local butcher who got the whole animal, and that's where I get my chunks of back fat and marrow bones.

Regarding EVOO and other bottled fats/oils, I avoid processed, packaged, and "un-whole" foods. It's not actually a rule, rather a simplification. In addition to back fat, I also get fat from eggs, avocados, fatty fish, and occasionally nuts. Local availability plays a role in what I eat, but relentless searching uncovers new sources from time to time.

[Chris]

Thanks eveheart for your reply and advice. You bring up very good and valid points, and I feel that your right, about avoiding processed, packaged, and "un-whole" foods! I plan on keeping it 100% natural! I mean, our ancestors didn't reach for a bottle of EVOO, or Nut Oils, ect! Thank you for your post. It kind of put's things in perspective.

[CarnivorousApe]

Chris, I was curious about your previous diet in case if you came from lowcarb cooked paleo. I found this  way easier for me, can't tolerate any fruits and carbs myself.
But I'm curious about cooked lowcarb paleo dangers. Is cooked saturated fat really that toxic?

[Chris]

CarnivorousApe, that is a great question, regarding cooked saturated fat and It's potential toxicity. I personally have no clue, I know that I've used ghee and duck fat, without any negative effects that I know of so far. It does make sense though, that since this diet is based on raw meats/eggs/fat. That the use of other processed fats would be unnecessary, as eveheart pointed out  (even if they are in their raw state; their still processed). Let's face it, our ancestors didn't sit around camp making ghee, pressing olives for their oil, or rendering "duck fat" day in and day out. It makes sense to avoid these items, not based on their potential toxicity, or products in question, but because they have no place in this diet. I think I was trying to over analysis additional fats on this diet, rather than keeping it simple. I plan on taking evehearts advice and stick to raw animal fats only. Raw butter makes more sense than rendered ghee or duck fat. JMO. This diet is simple if we want it to be. But, it can also be as complicated, if we make it that. I think when in question, keep it "simple". To me it makes perfect sense. I hope this helps you too.

[CarnivorousApe]

AFAIK, modern hunter gatherers eat fat raw, right at the hunting site. The rest of the carrion is taken to camp, where it can be roasted.

I find it hard to eat internal fat raw though, so rendering lard is an option for me, at least for the time being.

[Chris]

CarnivorousApe, I think you'll be fine with rendered fats. As long as they agree with you, I say go for it. Like I said in a previous post, I've had rendered duck fat and ghee, and they never gave me any problems. This diet is very subjective, I see where some people eat vegetables/some don't, some eat fruit/some don't, and some eat certain foods cooked (?). If I were you, I'd eat whatever that I felt comfortable with. As long as the substance agrees with you. Do a little experimenting if you have too. I'm actually still eating the rest of my ghee, and duck fat to be honest with you. I've heard duck fat is really good for you, and the same for ghee. Do a little research on them, and form your own conclusion.

[jessica]

one of the best thing i have ever done for my diet is totally removing olive oils, flax and hemp oils, and seed butters....my gallbladder could not agree more

[CarnivorousApe]

In context of your original question Chris, I wonder which one is healthier: cooked animal fats or cold pressed vegetable oils?

I just finished "Vegetarian Myth" book, comparative studies were done, when people replaced animal fat with oil (I think it was corn oil though) and had higher mortality rates than people who ate animal fat (cooked obviously)

[Chris]

Hi jessica, when I first started this post, I was thinking EVOO, hemp, coconut,  or other seed butters/oils would be a valuable addition to our diet. Because, they are considered healthy, by the mainstream health "professionals and nutritionists". I have since changed my mind. I like you, I believe they have very little place in the RawPaleo diet, even if they are considered "raw" (too processed, there's better choices for fat out there).  I think a lot of rawpaleo dieter's choices are so objective, they kind of make up the rules as they go along (which is fine with me, just pointing that out). I believe simplicity works the best, and that's what I'm sticking too. But, I guess too each his own, and i can respect other people's choices and decisions.

CarnivorousApe,
"I wonder which one is healthier: cooked animal fats or cold pressed vegetable oils?" Good question. IMPO, I'd probably would stick with "cooked animal fat's if I had to choose". I think it's more in it's natural form. JMO. About corn oil, most corn in this country is GMO, unless it's organic of course. I can only imagine the problems that may encounter, if you used that in your diet.

[eveheart]

I think a lot of rawpaleo dieter's choices are so objective, they kind of make up the rules as they go along (which is fine with me, just pointing that out). I believe simplicity works the best, and that's what I'm sticking too.

I notice that many authorities write their findings about paleolithic man's or modern hunter-gatherers' lifestyles, but I don't think of these findings as the rules of RPD. I think of the findings as habit, customs, or serving-suggestions for my RPD. I'm sure this is how my paleo-grandmother lived - trying things out, and spitting or swallowing as she saw fit. 

About corn oil, most corn in this country is GMO, unless it's organic of course. I can only imagine the problems that may encounter, if you used that in your diet.

Here is what Wikipedia says about corn oil:

Corn oil (maize oil) is oil extracted from the germ of corn (maize)....

Almost all corn oil is expeller pressed, then solvent extracted using hexane or isohexane. The solvent is evaporated from the corn oil, recovered, and re-used. After extraction, the corn oil is then refined by degumming and/or alkali treatment, both of which remove phosphatides. Alkali treatment also neutralizes free fatty acids and removes color (bleaching). Final steps in refining include winterization (the removal of waxes), and deodorization by steam distillation of the oil at 232 - 260C (450 - 500F) under a high vacuum.

Some specialty oil producers manufacture unrefined, 100% expeller pressed corn oil. This is a more expensive product since it has a much lower yield than the combination expeller and solvent process, as well as smaller market share.

Another 

[CarnivorousApe]

All vegetable oils are machine processed to some extent. While people used to cook meat for very long time, vegetable oils are recent invention. And some of them (canola, corn or soy oil) have more common with synthetic fuel than food.

[Chris]

eveheart: I totally agree! I'm sure we're no different than your grandmother.  or  . Some things or idea's are going to agree with us, and other's won't. About corn oil, WOW!!!! I new it was bad, but the way "Wikipedia" describes corn oil, it sounds like it should characterized as a toxic substance or bio hazard. It's a wonder we have so many health issues in this country, when we keep ingesting poisons like these into our systems. Thanks for the info. Too bad most people don't care, or fail to educate themselves on what they are constantly putting into their bodies. If they only knew?

CarnivorousApe, I agree, it makes you want to avoid all these's oils all together.