Your experience with raw dairy?

[JaX]

I'd like to hear what experiences you guys have with raw milk (if you have tried it)

Do you stick mostly to cow or goat milk? And how much do you drink?

Has it improved your health in any way, and what effects do you feel it has on your body when you drink it (positive/negative)?

For those of you who drink it: are there things raw milk shouldn't be mixed with (should it be drunk separately from meat)?

Please explain

[Sully]

I had some raw cows cheese after I been off it for a long time. Later that night I experienced massive aches in my knees. I mean massive. I think it was caused by the dairy.

However, I ate raw goat's cheese and did not experince it.

Never had raw milk.

[goodsamaritan]

I experiment weekends.

For 3 or more weekends I experimented with raw cow milk, 1 liter at a time.  Caused my stomach to rumble and my colon to be gassy... I fart all day and night.

For 3 or more weekends I experimented with raw carabao milk (water buffalo), 1 liter at a time... Caused my stomach to rumble and my colon to be gassy... I fart all day and night.

For 3 or more weekends I experimented with raw goat milk, 1 liter at a time... Caused my stomach to rumble and my colon to be gassy... I fart all day and night.  The last time the gas was so bad, it caused me too much pain.

So I gave up on raw milk.

I voted on NEVER.  What I mean is I tried raw milk, but it obviously does not work for me.  So I don't want to drink raw milk again.

[lex_rooker]

Dairy of any kind has not proven to be a great food for me.  Though I'm not allergic to dairy products according to the results of allergy tests taken over the years, I find that I get congested with mucus, experience post nasal drip, and it seemed to aggravate (or cause?) my cystic acne from my teenage years into my early 30's when I finally quit consuming it altogether.

Lex

[glennm01]

I started drinking raw milk (as well as raw cream and butter) a couple months ago. At first, it gave me smelly gas for a few weeks, but I stuck with it, and the gas has since subsided. By now, raw milk doesn't seeem to be affecting me adversely at all. I've read that raw milk contains the lactase enzyme, and the lack of that is what gives most people trouble digesting lactose. That might explain why I had gas upon first beginning to consume raw dairy, and my theory is that I slowly repopulated my digestive tract with the lactase from the milk I was drinking, to the point that I'm having no problem digesting it now. It would be interesting if some of you guys who think it doesn't agree with you would try sticking to it for a month or two to see if the same doesn't happen.

[Raw Kyle]

I used to consume a lot of raw dairy according to the Primal Diet and it didn't seem like an optimal food. Milk seemed to effect me the worst, nothing too serious but after a big AV style milkshake with honey and eggs in it my stomach would feel bloated and I would feel like I didn't want to do anything for a while. I can consume the same amount of calories in muscle/fat/organs and not experience anything like that.

I stuck with butter and cheese longer. I was making Primal Diet moisturizing formulas for a while as my main source of fat, and although these digested better than milkshakes they still didn't digest as well as meat, and it's considerably more expensive.

Cheese I was eating with my meat for a while and it made it quite enjoyable. Cubed or grated cheese with cubed meat, cubed pineapple and chopped jalapeno pepper was very tasty, one of the few times I've enjoyed the simple and rather bland in comparison tastes of raw to SAD foods. But for the most part I've given up raw dairy as it seems the evidence points to it being at worst harmful and at best less beneficial than meat, and it's usually more expensive than meat calorie for calorie.

Coincidentally I got a half gallon of raw goat milk today and a dozen eggs to see how some milkshakes would digest. I remember goat milk digesting better, but a big shake would still give me that bogged down feeling. One thing that is undeniable is that dairy is tasty!

[Guittarman03]

I tried cows milk/cheese/cream for a week or so.  My nasal cavities got all backed up, sore throat, and had quite a few digestion problems.  I gave up on raw dairy for awhile after that.  1/2 a yr later (very recently actually), I started drinking raw goats milk as a mid-night snack.  I will say it digests much better, and I don't have nearly the allergic reaction.  There are definitely both pros and cons:

Pros:
-Helped quite a bit with sleep. 
-GREAT midnight snack to put on some weight if that's what you're going for (esp combined w/ egg)
-Great to use moderately in a honey/egg/berry post work-out shake
-Tons of high quality nutrients

Cons:
-Still doesn't digest perfectly for me, but no stomach problems
-Possible humans (generally) still lack ability to completely digest
-Still causes somewhat of a mucus/allergic reaction.

Right now I'm pretty torn about it.  I like to sing/guitar and the mucus reaction kills the singing voice, but it tastes so great, and is so good for recovery/building.  I might use it sparingly for recovery or when I have trouble sleeping.

Once again, don't forget about genetics.  Studies show that while most all northern European decedents have most enzymes and fairly good ability to digest the stuff, south Pacific people almost always do not.  We have had some time to adapt, and the genes for us to process milk already exist within us.  I would say some of us are near completely able to process, and some of us are near completely unable.  But goats milk; if you do, definitely go with goats milk.     

[TylerDurden]

Early on in the raw diet, I would try lots of raw dairy, I would get massive cravings for it( a common reaction for those allergic to a food) so that I would lose my taste for raw meats. My health-problems from it grew worse and worse(rectal bleeding/nasal mucus/poor skin-condition/sensitive skin/ chronic stomach-aches(as with any cooked-animal-food at the time  plus chronic fatigue and acute anxiety among a 100 other symptoms). It took months for some of the symptoms to go away and a couple of years before 1 or 2 of the rest to disappear.

Because some raw-dairy-fanatics insisted that I was "to blame" for my health-problems with raw dairy and suggested that my gut just needed time to heal, I tried raw dairy twice within a 6-year-period, at 2-3(?) years and 6 years after the beginning of quitting raw dairy, and the symptoms gradually increased in severity as before. I've tried fermented dairy, dairy from cows/goats/sheep/water-buffalo - they are all hamrful, though some like goats' dairy takes a day or two longer than the other types to do its evil work on my body.

[Flymaster]

I'd love to have raw milk but it is illegal in Scotland so is just unobtainable.

[Michael]

I'd have to go along with Geoff's comments.  For a few years following the primal diet I consumed large quantities of raw butter, milk, cream and butter.  It was all organic and of very high quality (100% grass-fed pedigree jersey herd etc) but caused nothing but problems - stomach cramps, congestion, hives, terrible brain fog, fatigue, excessive weight gain, severe leg cramps (to the point that I sometimes got caught out unable to walk home!!) etc.  I slowly phased it out via soiree's with homemade goat kefir and, in a similar way to raw kyle, was still using 'fat shakes' - butter, eggs, honey - until comparatively recently. 

I've toyed with dairy on and off over the last few years hoping that I could get it to work for me but I am now totally avoiding ALL dairy and feeling much better for it!  Maybe it works for some people (perhaps dependent on genetics, ancestry, blood-type et al) but, despite great hopes and efforts, it doesn't appear to work not for me.

[Carnál]

I'd love to have raw milk but it is illegal in Scotland so is just unobtainable.

    I don't know this farm personally, and no one recommended them to me.  I found them in the regular directory.  You could see if they are close enough to help you.

Wales:
Cnwc Goats is a small goats' dairy farm selling raw milk by mail order and some raw goats' cheeses.
The goats seem to be pasture fed too.

Cnwc Goats, Ysbyty Ystwyth, Ystrad Meurig,
Ceredigion SY25 6DA,

Tel: 01974 282634, www.cnwc-goats.co.uk/   


I use milk, but I just used my last today.  I cannot get more for about two weeks.  I'm not sure if I will want to though.

[Carnál]

    I checked the link now.  It says the goats are now housed in Carmarthenshire.  I don't know where that is or whether they do business as stated now.

[livingthelife]

Before adding raw meat recently, we ate only a small amount of raw dairy and the rest grain & plants. Uncultured raw dairy has seemed kind of indigestible, with that bloating feeling. When we have a little goat milk in cereal it doesn't seem to bother anyone. Cheese, yogurt, cultured cream and cultured butter digests very well.

Over the past week I tried to increase our fats but have only dairy at the moment, so we drank goat milk. It gave me reflux, which I haven't had in awhile.

[Michael]

Hi Carnal,

I used to source my raw goat milk from CNWC in Wales.  It was only a young farmer that used to run it and he seemed to be doing well with ambitious plans.  The milk was fantastic (as quantified by my cat's ferocious appetite for it!) and I used to receive fortnightly deliveries.

Unfortunately, the business struggled financially and he had to call it a day.  It was a great shame.  As far as I know, he is not back up and running.  I eventually found another goat milk source closer to home which was actually even better milk.

But, I no longer consume dairy at all and have really noticed the benefits.  Even the kefir'ed goat milk was just not a good food for me no matter how hard I persevered with it.  I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad food for everybody though.  With my problems continuing sourcing a reliable source of other animal fats (marrow, suet..) I am considering going back to butter as I am currently fading away to nothing!  I'm trying to find a source of raw GOAT butter as an alternative to the raw jersey butter I gave up a couple of months ago.  Any UK links anyone?

[Raw Kyle]

Everyone's experiences seem to jive with mine. It works well sometimes, although not considered optimal. And cultured is better than milk.

[Carnál]

    I really only like cultured too.  Does anyone use this source click here?  When you get to the page, click on "Where".  From there click on "outside US".

[Flymaster]

    I checked the link now.  It says the goats are now housed in Carmarthenshire.  I don't know where that is or whether they do business as stated now.

Thanks for your trying to help but Wales and Scotland are literally a country apart, England stands between them, and a 900 mile round trip for a pinta is, to say the least, out of the question.  I have considered goat milk but am put off by the pong.  Maybe I can smuggle some over the border when I go south at Easter.

[feral]

Everyone's experiences seem to jive with mine. It works well sometimes, although not considered optimal. And cultured is better than milk.

Agreed.

The raw milk helped me transition over to mostly raw without losing too much weight.   Soon however it became clear that it messed with my sinuses and stomach, especially compared to raw meat.

[donrad]

I tried raw milk home made yogurt recently and it was fantastic. It was from grass only fed cow. It is hard to find grass only dairy here in the winter. Rich and creamy.

I just made some raw goat milk yogurt and kefir. It is runny but good. The goats were grain fed. The farmer said goats are browsers and it's hard to raise dairy goats without grain.

I drink some every morning. I believe in symbiotics. The bacteria digest the lactose also.

Sources:

http://www.realmilk.com/where2.html#ks

www.westonaprice.org

The Weston A. Price Foundation
PMB 106-380
4200 Wisconsin Ave., NW
Washington DC 20016
Phone: (202) 363-4394
Fax: (202) 363-4396


Here are additional online resources:

Raw Milk Powerpoint Presentation:
http://www.realmilk.com/ppt/index.html

Short Film: “The Whole Truth About Milk” by Organic Pastures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHcyAH0rOPE&feature=related

Short Film: "The Meatrix"
http://www.themeatrix.com/

Short Film: "The Meatrix 2"
http://www.themeatrix2.com/

Short Film: "Store Wars"
http://www.storewars.org/

Short Film: "Greening the Desert"
The Ultimate in Local, Sustainable Agriculture: Geoff Lawton's Permaculture
http://permaculture.org.au/category/geoff-lawton/

Acres U.S.A.
A Voice for Eco-Agriculture
http://www.acresusa.com/

American Grassfed Assn. Recipe Page
Features Recipes for Beef, Bison, Goat, Lamb, Pork,
Poultry, & Dairy
http://www.americangrassfed.org/recipe_main_page.htm

Apitherapy Raw Honey from Honey Gardens
Raw Honey Products and Information
http://honeygardens.com/

Article: A SIMPLE CHANGE IN MINDSET - Learning to Maximize the Use of Your Real Milk and Cream Pasteurized milk doesn’t sour, it rots.  But naturally soured raw milk and cream are highly useful and nutritious items. In fact, it can be argued that the soured versions are even more healthful than the “fresh from the cow variety” due to the higher level of enzymes and friendly bacteria present.
http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/maximize_rawmilk.html


Article: Is Your Honey Really Raw?
http://www.zianet.com/sunmountain/rawhny.htm

Chelsea Green Publishing
The Politics and Practice of Sustainable Living
http://www.chelseagreen.com/

Cholesterol and Health - A WAPF Chapter Leader’s site focused on cholesterol
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/

David Suzuki Foundation - "Solutions Are in Our
Nature"
Since 1990, the David Suzuki Foundation has worked to find ways for society to live in balance with the
natural world that sustains us.
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/

Eat Wild
The #1 Site for Grass-Fed Food & Facts
http://www.eatwild.com

Fankhauser's Cheese Page
Recommended Site for Cheesemaking
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/Cheese.html

Fieldstone Organic Farm
Good Raw Milk information:
http://www.fieldstoneorganicfarm.com/educational/milk_information.htm

Fourfold Path to Healing
Dr. Thomas Cowan's website (he wrote a companion book to Sally Fallon's "Nourishing Traditions")
http://www.fourfoldhealing.com/

Local Harvest
Find your local food growers!
http://www.localharvest.org/

New Trends Publishing
Important Books on Diet & Health
http://www.newtrendspublishing.com/

Nourishing Connections (Colorado)
The Colorado WAP Chapter -- a good resource
http://wss.nourishingconnections.org

Nourishing Our Children
http://www.nourishingourchildren.org/

“Nutrition and Physical Degeneration” by Weston A. Price - The Book - Free on the internet!
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html

Organic Consumers Association
Campaigning for Health, Justice, and Sustainability
http://www.organicconsumers.org/

Radiant Life Company
Excellent Information & Products.  The section on “Traditional Wisdom” is a very good summary of Dr. Price’s research, and includes some of the remarkable photos from his book.
http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/

Real Milk - A Campaign for Real Milk
Learn the TRUTH about natural dairy products
http://www.realmilk.com/

Really Raw Honey
"http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/

Remineralize the Earth
Towards a sustainable agriculture, forestry, and climate
http://www.remineralize.org/

Soy Information from WAPF
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtsoy.html  (also do a search for “soy” on the site)

Wild Fermentation
Sandor Elix Katz's Site (author of "Wild Fermentation: The Flavor, Nutrition, and Craft of Live-Culture
Foods")
http://www.wildfermentation.com/

Wise Food Ways
Jessica Prentice's website (author of "Full Moon Feast")
http://www.wisefoodways.com/

Information about Fluoride:
http://tinyurl.com/293krb

Information about re-mineralization & healing of teeth:
http://constantstateofflux.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/tooth-regeneration/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XPCOGSnjP5w
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5HWms5CvHZk
Note:  there are three parts to this, and Ramiel Nagel also has a website and a book:
Website:  http://www.curetoothdecay.com/
Book:  Cure Tooth Decay: Heal and Prevent Cavities with Nutrition by Ramiel Nagel



~~~~~   BLOGS:   ~~~~~
http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/

http://cooking.glassbrian.com/

http://nourishedkitchen.com/

[ErikFury]

I've gone through periods where I have drank up to 3 gallons of raw milk a week. Also I have gone through periods where I would drink 3 gallons of CREAM every ten days or so. I prefer cream over milk big time. I am poor now and can no longer afford to buy my raw cream/milk. Now I just steal cream cheese from the markets!

[PaleoPhil]

It reminds me of the old firesign theatre comedy routine: "Everything you know is wrong!"

More and more I'm noticing that when it comes to what civilization teaches us, that often seems to be true. We are told that whole grains, fiber, low-fat dairy and lots of fruits are good for us and red meat and saturated fat are bad, whereas I have been experiencing the opposite. We are told that raw meat will kill us off in no time, whereas I have been rejuvenated by it. We are told that we must have lots of arch support and huge cushy heels in our shoes, whereas I am finding that no support and no heels has much better results for me. We are told that Paleo hunter gatherers were living lives that were "nasty, brutish and short," whereas I have learned from Paleoanthropology that their health was actually superior to that of farmers and from anthropologists and explorers I learned that traditional Inuit people had the lowest rates of depression ever witnessed when they were still eating their traditional foods. What else has civilization misled me about?

[RawZi]

At first, it gave me smelly gas for a few weeks, but I stuck with it, and the gas has since subsided. By now, raw milk doesn't seeem to be affecting me adversely at all. I've read that raw milk contains the lactase enzyme, and the lack of that is what gives most people trouble digesting lactose. That might explain why I had gas upon first beginning to consume raw dairy, and my theory is that I slowly repopulated my digestive tract with the lactase from the milk I was drinking, to the point that I'm having no problem digesting it now. It would be interesting if some of you guys who think it doesn't agree with you would try sticking to it for a month or two to see if the same doesn't happen.

    Up to a whole month, when I first started my stomach was very rumbly.  It's been fine ever since, unless I stay away six or more months and suddenly drink a lot again.  Then for another few days my stomach is rumbly again.

Also I have gone through periods where I would drink 3 gallons of CREAM every ten days or so. I prefer cream over milk big time. I am poor now and can no longer afford to buy my raw cream/milk.

    Cream I can definitely drink easier than milk, never tried three gallons in a week but pretty fast.

I'd like to hear what experiences you guys have with raw milk (if you have tried it)

Do you stick mostly to cow or goat milk? And how much do you drink?

Has it improved your health in any way, and what effects do you feel it has on your body when you drink it (positive/negative)?

For those of you who drink it: are there things raw milk shouldn't be mixed with (should it be drunk separately from meat)?

Please explain

 

    I drink either.  I'd like to try buffalo and sheep.  I drink (raw) milk on and off.

    It has definitely improved my health in general, but it makes me sleepy and dark under my eyes.

    Drinking milk does not mix with a meat meal.  Butter is fine though.

[TylerDurden]

Re nasty brutish and short;-  All the palaeo evidence shows an average lifespan of c.35 years for men and 30 years for women in palaeo times(see beyondveg.com table). Granted that's partly due to mass infanticide(why would people in blissful circumstances of plenty go in for infanticide unless the notion of the noble savage in paradise was a fraud?) but that still means they did not live long lives given death at childbirth infanticide famine and multiple other factors.

[TylerDurden]

Finally realised that this dairy topic should go to the hot topics thread. Silly me. Have moved the thread now.

[PaleoPhil]

Re nasty brutish and short;-  All the palaeo evidence shows an average lifespan of c.35 years for men and 30 years for women in palaeo times(see beyondveg.com table). Granted that's partly due to mass infanticide(why would people in blissful circumstances of plenty go in for infanticide unless the notion of the noble savage in paradise was a fraud?) but that still means they did not live long lives given death at childbirth infanticide famine and multiple other factors.

I was referring to the way that people who use the quote (such as vegan propagandists and critics of Paleo dieting in general) tend to use it to convey the assumption that lifespan greatly increased with the advent of Neolithic civilization and that farming had beneficial overall health effects over hunter-gathering and horticulture, rather than deleterious ones.

I have the Beyondveg.com table and article and the table shows that average lifespans actually decreased a bit with the advent of agriculture and concludes "that farmers were less healthy than hunters, at least until Classical to Roman times," which was my point. As you in part suggested, the short average lifespans of Stone Agers had more to do with high rates of infant mortality than unhealthy diets among adults.