why so many raw vegans claim they have improved health and glowing skin?

[Joy2012]

If one browses raw vegan forums (such as RAW FOOD TALK), one will see many claim to have solved health problems, have abundant energy, have glowing skin, etc..  I know this forum's general consensus is that raw veganism leads to poor health and accelerated aging. Then how do you explain the many voluntary personal testimonies in raw vegan forums?

I tried raw paleo for four months earlier this year. I perhaps did it wrong because I ate much raw cheese. I did not receive any obvious benefit to speak of. I actually think I experienced accelerated aging during that period. My diet is mixed right now because I am vacationing abroad and do not have much power over my intake of food. However, as I am getting close to returning to my home in US, I am giving thoughts to what is a really healthful diet. Please be assured I am not promoting raw veganism. I am just asking for opinions. I am sure I will receive valuable input as I remember that many members in this forum experimented with raw vegan once upon a time.

[CitrusHigh]

Veggies are GREAT for cleaning you out Joy, and most people will find benefit from raw, brightly colored veggies, regardless of what anyone here claims. The problem is that they are lacking vital nutrients and over time, most, if not all, will experience degeneration on a raw vegan diet, IMObservation. You should play around with your diet in varying proportions of raw meat, fat and veggies. When you find the magic proportion (though this can change through your bodily development, eg infants, children, pregnant, menopause, etc) your skin should be glowing, your nails strong, eyes clear, hair glossy, demeanor generally sparkly and you shouldn't get sick much, if ever.

That is why there is no single perfect diet, it varies for everyone top to bottom!

There is no denying the benefits of raw veganism, especially coming from SAD in the beginning, the question is, how long will that last. Might be 6 months, might be a few decades or more, but eventually your body is going to succumb to the lack of vital fats and vitamins/hormones, especially vitamin k2, IMO.

Others will have differing views here, no one completely agrees on that I think.

[goodsamaritan]

Temporary raw veganism from SAD is beneficial.  Too long and you come up with deficiencies.  It's all about balance.

If raw paleo was not working for you... what kind of raw paleo were you on?  How much of what foods were you on? 

[Chris]

Well, there's plenty of ex-vegitarians on this site. That's for sure.

[Joy2012]

Thanks to all who responded.

GS, I discussed my diet on May 4, 2012 in the following post.

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/loren-cordain-on-age-contents-in-foods/msg90381/#msg90381

[goodsamaritan]

Since late January 2012, My diet has been like this:
(1)    Truly raw Gruyere cheese from local pastured cows (almost 1/3 of my diet; that is horrible now I know)
(2)    100% grass-fed beef from Whole Foods ( minced in my food processor with raw coconut cream, coconut oil, lemon juice and lots of raw organic garlic/onion/cilantro/ginger plus a little store-bought cooked organic spices, warmed up in my dehydrator at 115 F;  I really love this dish)
(3)    Wild caught Alaskan salmons (smaller whole salmons, which are cheaper than fillets; processed the same way as my beef dish)
(4)    Truly raw cream from pastured cows at a local farm (often fermented into sour cream)
(5)    Raw organic walnuts, soaked and dehydrated

My guesses... Imbalance and Overdoses.

1. Too much protein? Every single day?
2. Not enough fat?
3. Too much nuts!!!  Nuts interfere with meat digestion.  I would do away with the nuts and eat just a handful for 1 day and that would be the quota for the entire month.
4. Not enough green veggies... no fruit?
5. How is your water / hydration consumption?
6. Cheese is 1/3 your diet? Insane! Too much protein, not enough fat.
7. Processed / minced beef with other gunk / stuff... insane too!  No balance and no instinct there.

Condimenting and processing is dangerous... whether cooked or raw as it throws off instincts.  Try plain, uncondimented, and see that you will eat a lot less and not be prone to stuffing yourself too much.

I would check for high uric acid levels by now.

I have noticed that we people have cycles.  And if we must go vlc like eskimos we'd probably need the same kinds of animals like the eskimos and the same weather as the eskimos.

It may also depend on where you live and what activities you do and your age.

check your instinctive smell and taste and see what you prefer instead of doing the VLC dogma. 

If this version of raw paleo diet isn't working for you, then just change to something else.

On year 2 and 3 I was doing large quantities of animal food.  But this year 4 my body instincts just drastically cut down on animal consumption.  Listen to your body's needs and adjust.

I can perceive by your choice of food it all depends on tasting good via processing... but your perception of food when all is uncondimented will be a totally different raw paleo diet experience.

[Joy2012]

Thoth and GS, thank you for your advice.

I think my RP diet earlier this year was 60+ % fat, counting the fats in beef and cheese and dairy cream and coconut cream and walnuts. I had plenty of water.

I definitely need to change to another version of Raw Paleo. The problem is that I don’t think I can go by my instincts. If I go by my instincts, I would eat 80% of my food in the form of sweet juicy fruits purchased at supermarkets (not wild fruits). I now stay in Taiwan, the kingdom of sweet fruits. So I know I would do that.

According to the homepage of this forum, only berries and wild fruits are allowed in RP. So I just cut out almost all fruits earlier this year. (I would not go into the wild to gather wild fruits. Organic berries were insanely expensive.)  As for veggies, I thought some in this forum pointed out that most veggies have anti-nutrients according to scientific studies? So I cut out veggies. What was left was the VLC version of raw paleo.

As for my home-minced meats, I don’t think they are worse than commercially ground meats that many in this forum eat? If I did not spice up my beef/fish, I could not stomach any raw beef/fish. Hopefully I may transition to a higher level.

I have cut out all dairy since mid-May. I can cut out nuts if that is necessary. I ate walnuts primarily to up my fat intake.

If this version of raw paleo diet isn't working for you, then just change to something else..

Yes that is something I have to do. The problem is that I do not know how to do it. I don’t know what my body really needs. As I said, if I listen to my body/taste, I might be a happy camper at the sweet fruit kingdom, which obviously is not wise. That is why I tend to go by rules...

[CitrusHigh]

That feeling of craving for sugar is super unnatural and is probably candida talking. You will have to learn to distinguish your own instincts from those of the host of microbes that live inside of you.

Also, even though you will need your intellect to make decisions, try not to be too rigid. Take more of a "do what gets healthy results" attitude as opposed to a "I can eat only this set of foods" outlook. You and your body's signals are the best determinants of what is right for you. That's why everyone who's been around a while and has had success with their diet has their own particular way of eating. Noone here eats exactly the same set of foods, and for a lot of people those foods change throughout the season and the years.

I've learned that my cravings  for sugars are not natural and there are a lot of organisms out there that can literally control the minds of their hosts. The book "Survival of the Sickest" outlines that pretty well, talking about parasites that literally control their hosts to the point that they commit suicide.

Veggies do contain antinutrients and are probably, for most, best eaten in limited quantities, but some people seem to do well with a large percentage. A big part of it is your genetic heritage. Unless you came from Inuit or Masai peoples (and even then I'm not so sure), your ancestors probably ate plants in between wild game kills. So don't leave them out just because someone says they're full of toxins or antinutrients, they also have a ton of vitamins and minerals and every food you eat both leeches from and provides minerals to the body. Minerals are used to digest anything you eat, they are also assimilated from everything you eat, just in varying quantities and efficiencies.

You can do it! Just cultivate an awareness of what it looks like to be truly healthy. You should feel good, have real, long lasting energy, not short bursts, unless you're highly athletic, your food should result in strong teeth, bone and nails, your skin should be clear and supple, and your hair shiny and strong without being too greasy or too dry. Those are the main signs, there are others like digestive issues and so on, but you have to take everything in context, sometimes you might have digestive issues with a food, but perhaps only because you ate it with something that combined poorly. So experiment, re-experiment, alter, amend and adjust until you feel confident that your foods are nourishing you and not sapping you.

Good luck! And if you can't find answers to your questions here on the forum, then post them and the caring community here will do the best they can to offer perspective.

[Joy2012]

Thoth, Thanks for taking time to help me out.

I do not think I have candida. I had to search the internet to understand what candida is and I do not have any symptoms of candida overgrowth.  I hardly eat desserts for years and I do not have to eat sweet fruits. I was just saying my preference is for sweet juicy fruits if I go by instincts. But sweet fruits do not control me. I was fine without sweet fruits for four months earlier this year. I cut them out totally  in one day.

One problem with "listening to my body" is that I hardly have any digestive issues or serious health problems. I feel fine physically after taking in  almost any kind of food. I actually can accept most foods as long as I can be persuaded that they are healthful.  I do not eat many kinds of foods only because they are not healthful.   Otherwise I am not particular about my food intake.  I can change my diet cold-turkey precisely because I am fine with most types of foods (but not with raw un-spiced meats at present as yet).  I do not have immdiate health issues that may give me signs. The thing that bothers me most right now is my dark eye circles which actually darkened during the time period I had my VLC RP earlier this year. But it might be due to my sleep pattern.

I guess I will re-introduce veggies/non-sweet fruits into my diet. What kinds of supermarket veggies/fruits are acceptable to RP besides berries?  (Wild fruits are not practical. Who can easily obtain wild fruits in these days?)

[joej627]

Farmers markets are bar-none the best place to get organic, local foods.  They should have the closest thing to wild fruit besides growing/foraging your own.  I think raw vegan have improved their health by eating a cleansing diet.  It has a lot of vitamins/minerals, easy to digest (minus the fiber), etc.  It is just lacking/deficient in a lot of stuff we need also.  Some need more than others it appears and it depends on climate, activity levels, etc.  My diet isn't really that far off.  I mean I would say I eat maybe 75% vegan/vegetarian with around 25% coming from stuff like raw eggs, sashimi salmon, bone marrow, liver, crockpot chicken, etc.  Most of what I eat is fruits and vegetables and I feel better every day.

[bachcole]

If paleo is about anything that makes sense, it is about matching your diet/lifestyle with your genes.  And since everyone's genes are different, guess what!!!, everyone's diet will be different.  In fact, one geneticist said that most of the differences between human beings are in their appearance and in their reaction to foods.

What is often called paleo is what some ego decided was good for everyone else.  There is a lot of merit in reading what said ego said was good for them, but it is unlikely to be just right for everyone.

[Adora]

Joy don't give up on the instinctive approach. If you read and follow the instruction on how to listen to yourself, you might find that you don't over consume sweets at all. I was doing great with fruit and honey using instinctive. It took 2-3 days of strict attention to smell and taste, and then it got easier. I was loosing weight and eating much less sugar. GCB talks about emotional eating too.
     I wasn't aware of the stop for sugar well at first. I over ate some raw sweets on the first day or 2, but I became precise quick.
    I ate considerably less and lost 10lbs easy in a month. I gave into pressure and quit instinctive, but I'm going back tomorrow. You don't have to be totally insticitive forever, but it is a usefull practice, and if you follow the rules faithfully your instincts will sharpen.

[Joy2012]

Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement. I will try to do RP paying attention to my instincts.  I hope I will succeed. 

[Joy2012]

Farmers markets are bar-none the best place to get organic, local foods.  They should have the closest thing to wild fruit besides growing/foraging your own.  I think raw vegan have improved their health by eating a cleansing diet.  It has a lot of vitamins/minerals, easy to digest (minus the fiber), etc.  It is just lacking/deficient in a lot of stuff we need also.  Some need more than others it appears and it depends on climate, activity levels, etc.  My diet isn't really that far off.  I mean I would say I eat maybe 75% vegan/vegetarian with around 25% coming from stuff like raw eggs, sashimi salmon, bone marrow, liver, crockpot chicken, etc.  Most of what I eat is fruits and vegetables and I feel better every day.

Joe, How do you know the food items you find at farmers' markets are truly what the farmers claim to be?  I would think it is safer to buy certified organic produce at supermarkets because at least they are certified by someone.
May I ask what plant foods you eat regularly?

[CitrusHigh]

IMO Joe is half right. IF you can find organic/sustainable producers at your market.

Usually I say to them, do you use any chemicals? They are quick to respond "Nope! No sprays" They tell me, beaming.

Then I ask, what kind of fertilizer do you use. *smile drops to pursed lips, expression goes blank* "well we use a granular fertilizer, but only a little bit" It's almost as if they're trained to say this, because they all, no matter their ethnicity say it almost verbatim.  That granular fertilizer is nitrogen derived from crude oil. IOW it is a chemical in the purest sense of the word. Acceptable sources of nitrogen are urine, poop, rotten meat, compost, NOT crude oil.

Don't get me wrong, the produce at these places is far and away better than your local supermarket for a host of reason, but the vast majority of it is not organic.  Also even if a farmer's market grower is USDA organic (very rare), they may be purchasing manure/compost that comes from a conventional farm, this is legal and IMO is NOT organic for reasons of hormone/antibiotic uptake in the plants as well as horizontal genetic transfer from the feed to the livestock to the compost to the plants (and to the animals if you're getting eggs from animals eating feed). The DNA does NOT necessarily breakdown along the way, nor do chemicals involved in GMO growth.

In other words you are fucked.! I'm totally JK, that is extreme and alarmist, but, it's good to cultivate detailed questioning habits. They are typically unprepared even to lie to you because NOONE asks them these questions. I cannot tell you how many times they've said to me "Well no one's ever asked me that before". The reason I know this shit is because I farm. It took a long time and I'm still learning stuff.

Like I got off the phone a few minutes ago with the guy who is going to be fishing the cod livers for me. When talking about how he processes them, he mentioned in passing in re to salmon, that he doesn't like to use a lot of water or chlorine on the shit. I didn't even ask about that but DUH! How could I have been so naive, of course they're going to be using heavily chlorinated water to 'rinse' my beautiful fish stuff. I don't buy salmon anymore BTW for sustainability issues but I am buying these cod livers because they will get scrapped if not, or they will go to green pastures. As soon as my teeth are fully remineralized I'll quit those too and fully do my part to ease pressure on fisheries. Holla!

[PaleoPhil]

If one browses raw vegan forums (such as RAW FOOD TALK), one will see many claim to have solved health problems, have abundant energy, have glowing skin, etc..  I know this forum's general consensus is that raw veganism leads to poor health and accelerated aging. Then how do you explain the many voluntary personal testimonies in raw vegan forums?

I took your suggestion and browsed the Raw Food Talk forum. It took me less than 5 minutes to find a bunch of the usual complaints on raw vegan forums:

2 months in and dont have that mental clarity??
Started by Hippo2Hippie?, 07-24-2012 03:40 PM
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68824-2-months-in-and-dont-have-that-mental-clarity

Putting on weight on a raw vegan diet [underweight]
Started by beautifulSunshine?, 05-16-2012 08:50 AM
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68357-Putting-on-weight-on-a-raw-vegan-diet

Eczema is insane! Ideas?
Started by Hippo2Hippie?, 07-18-2012 07:23 AM
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68784-Eczema-is-insane!-Ideas

Little rashes/pimples
Started by RAWCA?, 07-12-2012 10:51 AM
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68757-Little-rashes-pimples

Acne help!
Started by echoyjeff222?, 03-04-2012 10:58 PM
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?67747-Acne-help!

Restarted raw diet... feeling nausea
Started by LemonSlice?, 07-26-2012 03:22 AM
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68842-Restarted-raw-diet...-feeling-nausea

I can't seem to digest anything...
Started by Queen Bean?, 06-18-2012 03:12 AM http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68589-I-can-t-seem-to-digest-anything...

I tried raw paleo for four months earlier this year. I perhaps did it wrong because I ate much raw cheese.

If you don't fare well on raw cheese, then don't eat it. Raw Paleo doesn't have to be about a set dogma, I think of it as finding what works for me (and you).

As you may agree, given that many don't even consider dairy to be truly Paleo (it's often called "Primal" or near-Paleo, mostly-Paleo, Paleo 2.0, etc. instead when dairy is included), I don't see how one could ascribe bad results from a diet that includes much dairy to raw Paleo without at least first trying a dairy elimination.

Good luck with finding out what works for you!

[Joy2012]

Thoth, thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge.  I usually shop my organic produce at NATURAL GROCERS and another local organic store. Any objection to this chain grocer NATURAL GROCERS?

Paleophil, thanks for taking the trouble to do my suggestion. You are a bit "selective," though. On the other hand, I do not argue with you. I still want to try RP and hope to find out what form of RP works out for me.

[PaleoPhil]

Paleophil, thanks for taking the trouble to do my suggestion. You are a bit "selective," though.

LOL Of course, because I was pointing out that there is more than just the positive claims of "abundant energy, have glowing skin, etc.." at that forum that you selectively reported in your original post and thread title (and they were easy to find with just a brief perusal of the main thread). There's no need to point out the positive reports when they've already been mentioned and no one has disputed them.

Besides, every dietary forum I've seen, from raw vegan to zero carb, has reports of improved skin and overall health, including very recently at this forum: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/health/skin-improvements/msg96603/#msg96603.

On the other hand, I do not argue with you. I still want to try RP and hope to find out what form of RP works out for me.

Good luck with finding what works for you, Joy.

[CitrusHigh]

Very recently and long past on the skin improvements. Even though we only just had a topic specifically on skin Improvement via Jessica, my skin was the reason I landed on RVAF 5 years ago and it was the first thing I noticed to improve. Of course there are variations of RVAF, like the wai diet for example that would have my skin looking like a teenager working at a fast food joint.

As for natural foods, I have no idea about that chain Joy, wish I could help you, but I will tell you that it really doesn't matter where you shop, there will be dreadfully unhealthy foods and very healthy foods(well not always the latter, but certainly the former). You have to audit foods on an individual batch-basis. Our experiments on extra virgin olive oil demonstrate that. Some brands solidify sometimes, but not other times, indicating that some of it is legitimately olive oil while other batches are not olive oil at all.

[Joy2012]

I was pointing out that there is more than just the positive claims of "abundant energy, have glowing skin, etc.." at that forum that you selectively reported in your original post and thread title

Phil, Thank you for pointing out that I was also selective.

I kind of expected you to fight back. I am not saying you always want to win an argument, though.  I think you are just very proud of your logical/philosophical mind.   


Thoth, thanks again for the tip on auditing foods on batch-basis.

Of course there are variations of RVAF, like the wai diet for example that would have my skin looking like a teenager working at a fast food joint.

Why do you recommend Wai diet for skin improvement? I thought many on this forum believe high fruit intake ages skin fast.

[CitrusHigh]

Sorry, probably didn't translate well, what I meant was, the wai diet would have my skin, red, inflamed and infected to the point that my face would be unrecognizable! In otherwords, not good!

[PaleoPhil]

I kind of expected you to fight back. I am not saying you always want to win an argument, though.  I think you are just very proud of your logical/philosophical mind.   

I'll take that as a complement, thanks, though I don't see it as fighting back or pride so much as sharing additional info to fill in the gaps (see #2 in my signature for more of my philosophy on that; I should probably include more smileys and such in my posts to help with this--I tend to forget to do that). My past experience reading vegan forums and trying plant-based diets gave me enough awareness to know that your original post and title were probably not quite the whole story. You said that you're not promoting raw veganism and I'm not assuming that you're trying to pick a fight with RPDers, so you don't mind my adding some info that shows newcomers that raw vegan diets do not produce only glowing skin and good health for all or that the RPD is not an epic phail for all, do you? It's meant to be additive more than negating or fighting.

I do enjoy the fact that threads that question and challenge raw Paleo like yours are allowed in this forum, unlike 30BAD and ZIOH, where basically only "yes-men" are allowed. And I also encourage you to continue to question popular notions here and not accept everything at face value. 

[cherimoya_kid]

 I thought many on this forum believe high fruit intake ages skin fast.

I don't.  I believe that high fruit intake combined with very low-fat, like 20% fat or less, is a cause of skin aging quickly.

[Joy2012]

I do enjoy the fact that threads that question and challenge raw Paleo like yours are allowed in this forum, unlike 30BAD and ZIOH, where basically only "yes-men" are allowed.

I am not challening. I am just trying to find a diet that works for me.
The fact that many members on this forum have experimented with raw vegan and other popular diets that claim to bring optimal health makes this forum a valuable resource.

I am glad that you have not retired from active participation in this forum, as you threatened to when you resigned from your mod positon. It is fun to have you around.

I don't.  I believe that high fruit intake combined with very low-fat, like 20% fat or less, is a cause of skin aging quickly.

I think some on this forum have quoted "scientific studies" that claim that sugar/carb in fruit ages skin?

[goodsamaritan]

Maybe those people doing 80/10/10 doug graham and durian rider with excessive factory farmed fruit ages skin. 

The instinctos in france and europe have better experience with fruits. 

I've good experience with fruits, follow the seasons and choose local.

Aajonus says only 1 serving of fruit a day.

And it probably depends on the fruit.  Cannot say a blanket statement like "fruit" really.

For example, I can do a fast using coconut juice and coconut meat and it will be good for the skin.  But I can only do this here in coconut land.  It would probably be a disaster if I did such a thing in a Scandinavian country.