Post meal Ketogenic crash?

[sabertooth]

I have been dealing with some weird symptoms lately, that have been difficult to pinpoint.

I have been eating an extremely low carb diet for a while now with no issues at all, but recently I began working out more intensely than usual. I have noticed a very heavy weak foggy headed feeling after meals during the last couple of weeks. It was almost like a low blood sugar episode, but somehow different. I tested my sugar after meals and it would actually drop from mid 80s, to mid 70s. Its not hypoglycemia, but it feels like my brain is starving for energy.

The last couple of days I have been eating some avocado and raw coconut before my meals and the issue has resolved. I think perhaps my body is needing more carbs to accommodate for the extra intense workouts along with the demanding work I do.

Its all new territory for me because I have never needed to add extra carbs before. Have  any other low carbers had similar experiences?

[Polyvore]

If your brain is starving, then you should definitely try MCT oil! It is not raw, but it gives a great ketogenic metabolic boost and feeds the brain like no other thing I know of. If you are unsure of it, then do some research on brain diabetes in alzheimer's patients, it is one of the few strong treatments for them. Perhaps your brain is taking a longer time than your body to adapt to your low carb diet? The coconut you speak of has MCTs in it, which would be why it is helping you, but there is only trace amounts. MCTs are saturated fats that are digested and metabolised very differently to animal saturated fats. They seem healthy in small doses, you could take a tablespoon one to three times a day and I am sure you would feel a difference.

[24isours]

I've been on a ketogenic diet for almost a year now and noticed something quite similar. Are you drinking enough water? I'm sure you are well aware that being in ketosis we already lose a significant amount of water and electrolytes even without exercise. It could be hard to keep up with these losses especially when we start sweating heavily.
You also don't wanna over do it on the water. If you do, you may end up losing a lot of sodium (depending on how many carbs you eat as carbs help us retain salt). You could also try adding 1/8th  or 1/4 teaspoon of sea salt into a 500ML water bottle and see if you notice any difference. Good Luck

I have been dealing with some weird symptoms lately, that have been difficult to pinpoint.

I have been eating an extremely low carb diet for a while now with no issues at all, but recently I began working out more intensely than usual. I have noticed a very heavy weak foggy headed feeling after meals during the last couple of weeks. It was almost like a low blood sugar episode, but somehow different. I tested my sugar after meals and it would actually drop from mid 80s, to mid 70s. Its not hypoglycemia, but it feels like my brain is starving for energy.

The last couple of days I have been eating some avocado and raw coconut before my meals and the issue has resolved. I think perhaps my body is needing more carbs to accommodate for the extra intense workouts along with the demanding work I do.

Its all new territory for me because I have never needed to add extra carbs before. Have  any other low carbers had similar experiences?

[Polyvore]

Also remember that whilst you may have functioned best on a ketogenic diet for a long time, just as vegans function well for a long time, the human body is naturally omnivorous and thus you may be best to cycle your ketogenic diet with another diet that includes some high quality carbs. I don't want to press my opinion, but maybe alternating ketogenic winter with omnivorous summers would prove helpful to your health?

[sabertooth]

I eat about two jars of coconut butter a week, so I get plenty of MCTs. It works great for me, and I have felt so well for so long on my current diet that this problem kind of took me by surprise.

I think working in the heat all last month has depleted my body's salts, sweating out over a gallon of water a day. Then I have been doing intense workouts while already depleted and I think its pushed me past the limit and I ended up exhausting myself.

I will have to take it easy for a while and add a little more carbs and see how that helps. So far drinking fresh coconut water seems to have helped tremendously.

[jessica]

what about eating fresh coconut meat? that has a bit of carbs as well but not as much as the water?  do you ever eat any added salt, seaweed, kelp or spirulina? or any other greens?

[Ioanna]

sabertooth, similar for me!  i'm trying to up my workouts again now that i'm healthy again and i'm going through something similar. i'll feel lethargic, especially my legs - they feel heavy, and i'm generally unmotivated.   i think it's carbs because if i add a little bit of raw honey to my meal i'm ready to go again    but i can't be eating raw honey because it's too much energy that gets unnerving and anxious for me so it's a constant balancing act until i find some carbs that work.

[eveheart]

I think working in the heat all last month has depleted my body's salts, sweating out over a gallon of water a day.

I add salt, not a "heavy" carb (like honey). My carbs are the light kinds, such as fermented veggies or seaweed. My age, metabolism, and activity level are way not like yours, but I'm suggesting this anyway because it seems to be suggested in all the ketogenic literature I read.

[AlphaCog]

I'd recommend increasing both salt and water intake and see how you feel. If you're feeling up to it you can charge your salt water under a sun, or if you have access to spring water then it's even better. Personally I use about 3g of salt per litre of water as in oral rehydration therapy.

Interesting reads:

Hello friends,

I have read more than a couple posts of low-carbers experiencing dizziness. I have mentioned a few times the need to use salt, but thought I'd create a new thread as well. Personally, I drink about 3-4L of water a day and put a pinch of Celtic Sea Salt (rich in the minerals low-carbers need) in my water bottle each time I fill it up.

If you are low-carbing and feel, fatigue, headaches, muscle weakness, dizziness, mood swings, lethargy, decreased mental alertness, this is a sign you need salt.

From, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living , (The latest LOW CARB book and it is FANTASTIC!) by Jeff Volek, PhD, RD & Stephen Phinney, MD, PhD

"The short answer is that the amount of carbohydrate in our diet changes our need for salt. High carbohydrate diets make the kidneys retain salt, whereas a low carbohydrate intake increases sodium excretion by the kidney.

Salt and water are more efficiently excreted, which is a good thing as long as you maintain an adequate minimum sodium intake. Ignore this lesson and you are likely to suffer the completely avoidable problems of headache, fatigue, weakness, and consipation."

Dr. Eades has also written about this recently in his blog:

"The good news is that it’s great to get rid of the excess fluid but it comes at a cost, which is the bad news. As the excess fluid goes, it takes with it sodium an extremely important electrolyte. When sodium levels fall below a critical threshold (which can happen within a short time), symptoms often occur, the most common being fatigue, headache, cramps and postural hypotension.

Postural hypotension happens when you stand up too quickly and feel faint. Or even pass out briefly. It’s a sign of dehydration. So if you’ve started your low-carb diet, made your multiple runs to the bathroom, and jump up off the couch to answer the phone and feel like your going to faint (or actually do pass out momentarily) and have to sit back down quickly, you’ve got postural hypotension. It’s really easy to fix – you simply need to take more sodium and drink more water. Salt your food more. Increasing sodium is just another one of the many counter-intuitive things about low-carb dieting. Just like eating more fat to lower your cholesterol. You’ve got to start thinking differently. The low-carb diet is one that absolutely requires more sodium. A lot more sodium.

...get some Celtic Sea Salt, Himalayan Salt or one of the other grayish, pinkish kind of grungy looking salts and replace your normal salt with these. And don’t use them sparingly. These salts have been harvested either from ancient sea beds or obtained by evaporation of sea water with high mineral content and contain about 70 percent of the sodium of regular salt (which has been refined, bleached and processed until it is pretty much pure sodium chloride, often with anti-caking agents added). The other 30 percent of the volume is other minerals and micronutrients (including iodine) found in mineral-rich seas. Consuming these salts is not just following a Paleolithic diet using modern food, but, depending upon the origin of the salt, it is consuming the same food your Paleolithic ancestors ate. I much prefer these salts taste-wise to regular salt, and I salt the heck out of all my food with it."

Source: http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/recommended-reading/729321-low-carbers-salt-dizziness-muscle-weakness-fatigue.html

Anecdotes:
http://paleohacks.com/questions/130718/the-great-n1-salt-experiment-aka-how-i-found-the-final-piece-to-my-energy-puzzl#axzz23Pgqn3H9

[Gordono]

Yeah, you could have a deficiency in almost anything, try iodine, try vitamin c, try vitamin e, try vitamin k? Or yes you could try drinking some sea water or sea salted water.

[Löwenherz]

Its all new territory for me because I have never needed to add extra carbs before. Have  any other low carbers had similar experiences?

Hi Sabertooth,

if I use a lot of coconut fat (in any form) on a full blown ketogenic diet with a carb intake near zero grams I get really nasty symptoms during days with some exercise.

I think that my blood ketone levels get WAY TOO HIGH from coconut fats. As long as I don't exercise it's no problem. But IF I exercise it really gets brutal. Like Lex, I will buy a blood ketone meter to be sure about this issue. Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney have written some interesting stuff about optimal blood ketone levels for athletes.

When I use coconut fat as my main fat source I always (have to) eat some fruits to avoid too deep ketosis. Then everything is ok, even with exercise.

When I use animal fats exclusively as my main fat source I don't get symptoms on a strict zero carb diet. And then it's even better for me to avoid ALL carbs because animal fats like beef and lamb fat make my body carb intolerant. During these days fruits would give me very undesireable blood sugar spikes and no benefits at all.

Robert K. Su, author of "Carbs can kill you" has recently confirmend my own experience. He believes that coconut fat can cause too high ketone levels if you don't eat carbs and now recommends to prefer animal fats on a zero carb diet. That makes sense, because human bodies can't store MCT, as far as I know.

In your situtation I would cut out coconut fat completely for one or two weeks to see if there is any difference, regarding your symptoms.

As long as you eat a lot of lamb fat it's not a good idea to add fruits, imo.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

..but i can't be eating raw honey because it's too much energy that gets unnerving and anxious for me so it's a constant balancing act until i find some carbs that work.

That sounds like a blood sugar problem.

Löwenherz