scoliosis (must present alternative to surgery)

[svrn]

what type of treatment besides just diet would you reccomend for scoliosis? what foods particularly and why? what kinds of excercises/stretches/healing systems would be in order for this. aajonus says it just heals over time with proper diet and reccomends the nut milks for it as well but im looking for something that can be done more than that. I heard there is a link with candida.

this person doesnt really feel any pain from it yet but the alignment has been classified as scoliosis through xray and is at a big enough angle to be classified as such. The doctors have them convinced that if they dont get the surgery now they will be crippled with older.

[raw-al]

Rolfing is one treatment if you can find it locally.

EFT Emotional Freedom Technique for those so inclined.

Yoga is a gradual way to alleviate it.

Food may help, although that sounds a bit of a stretch. NPI LOL

[svrn]

also thanks for the rolfing tip. seems promising. heres a good short film about it.

(two hands at bottom of page.)

http://www.filmsshort.com/festival-winners/Oscar-Winners-Short-Documentaries-1.html

[PaleoPhil]

I have both scoliosis and kyphosis, aka kyphoscoliosis (which means curved in both a  in both a coronal and sagittal plane). My flexibility and pain improved when I cut out gluten and improved a bit further when I went LC Paleo and raw LC Paleo. I tried chiropractic over the years. A couple chiropractors seemed to help a little, but it wasn't worth the cost to me. I'm still curved, so I've been experimenting with other things too, but at least my curvature hasn't progressed any since 2004, when I cut out the gluten. My height has been measuring consistently by physicians' offices at a half inch higher than it had been at the low point before Paleo, so that suggests some straightening.

My mother and two of three of my siblings also have scoliosis and/or kyphosis. Over the same years that my spine appears to have slightly straightened, my mother's has greatly worsened, though I haven't noticed worsening in my sibling's spines, one of whom is Paleo and the other, youngest sibling, who had a milder case that received more early treatment because hers was caught earlier (my parents had found a good chiropractor by the time hers was noticed, who seemed to make a great difference in her case).

I'm determined to never have to do surgery, despite being told many years ago by an allopathic MD that there's no hope of improvement via anything other than surgery, and likely inevitable worsening. There's no guarantee of permanent fix with surgery and there is a wide range of quality of surgical procedures and surgeons, with some producing rather horrendous results, including some horrible cases that involved severe worsening of the curvature--sometimes caused by the surgical/implant measures themselves--and even bending of metal bars inserted along the spine! I've heard and seen cases, including a bunch reported in a lecture, with images, that I attended by a leading surgeon who has done many scoliosis surgeries.

[cherimoya_kid]

Esther Gokhale's method is really useful.  gokhalemethod.com

Also Neurocranial Restructuring is amazing as well.  http://www.ncrdoctors.com/

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, and I think Gokhale and Egoscue,  Activated Isolated Stretching, trigger point therapy, myofascial / deep tissue massage and other methods may have been discussed in this forum. One could try searching on those terms as well as on scoliosis.

[Dorothy]

My husband has been doing in-depth research into reversing his scoliosis. There are some yoga postures that are good and some that are very bad for scoliosis - actually - most yoga postures are very bad. There is the Schroth method. There is CLEAR which is very expensive and might be over-rated for adults but has had some amazing results as per youtube.

Rolfing did nothing for Brian. Chiropractors (many over many years with different styles) did nothing. Acupuncture did nothing. Trigger point, myofacial, craniosacral and so many other things did nothing. Weekly massage for years with people that didn't have expertise with scoliosis did nothing. Emotional release techniques - also - no results.

You can reduce and reverse with exercise and physical therapy however - but it has to be geared specifically to scoliosis. He is going to start Iyengar yoga in particular to see how he does with it as he has read specific recommendations by Iyengar himself on how to treat a scoliosis similar to his that worked. We'll see.

I am learning how to do massage on him daily.
We've been only looking into this for the last couple of weeks and I already see improvement. I'm basically just pushing him back into place with consistency. He is modifying his own yoga practice to what he has learned on the internet.

Don't bother with anything that hasn't already had proven results with scoliosis. It's just a waste of time and resources imho.

[svrn]

with rolfing I think that the short documentary on the composer gives some credence to the practice. He went from being unable to use his right hand to having a tiny bit of improvement with surgery followed by huge recovery after rolfing. So rolfing has shown itself to work in many cases. I do believe it has as much to do with the practitioner as the practice though and you can get a bad rolfer just like you can get a bad version of anything else.

also im very suspicious that the person who im referring to is being told to get surgery when in my opinion said person has a very healthy back considering they can do the cobra pose in yoga and back back so far that the toes touch the head and they do this with no problem. I cant even come close to this and am considered extremely flexible. How can person who supposedly has scoliosis do such a thing? perhapsi am jsut wrong though and the ability to do such a pose is unrelated to a scoliosis diagnosis.

[Dorothy]

He has flexible hamstrings Troll.

I know a lot about rolfing. Between Brian and I we've gone to many - some of the best. I once gave a rolfer that I saw change a foot almost instantly my last $500 to help me - but there was no change. Rolfing can be very painful btw. It took us a long time to give up on it. Feldenkrais the same thing. Years of training. We've been at this a long time. We are also both trained in massage therapy.

The proper exercises and longer term proper massage techniques on a daily basis would be a more effective treatment imho. If there is a Schroth practitioner near him - that's the ticket! They would teach him how to help himself.

Medical doctors in this country at this time all say that there is no way to correct scoliosis besides surgery - but it wasn't always that way and it is simply, absolutely not true.

[PaleoPhil]

Medical doctors in this country at this time all say that there is no way to correct scoliosis besides surgery - but it wasn't always that way and it is simply, absolutely not true.

That's what a physician told me many years ago and I decided then and there not to take his word as gospel, thank heavens. In response to a simple, innocent question, he even said something along the lines of, "If you think that there's any way to improve your kyphoscoliosis beyond surgery, then you've abandoned all medical science!" He was verging on anger. What a turn-off! The arrogance of some conventional practioners I've encountered over the years has been sickening and counter-productive to their aims. If I listened to them I might have a metal rod along my spine at this time.

Fascinatingly, I've noticed that if an allopathic physician gets super-angry at a question, it tends to mean that I should explore it further, as it tends to challenge his profits, but hold hope of boosting my health.

[goodsamaritan]

You guys tried inclined bed therapy?  Seems to be pretty useful and practical.
Chiropractor definitely if you can afford it.

[Alive]

Could hanging upside down help to stretch your spine straighter?

I bought an inversion table for a sore back, but didn't need it as back pain went away after changing diet to lower carb / higher raw.

[Dorothy]

Fascinatingly, I've noticed that if an allopathic physician gets super-angry at a question, it tends to mean that I should explore it further, as it tends to challenge his profits, but hold hope of boosting my health.

I'm going to call this "Phil's Angry Doctor Indicator"! Truly, thank goodness you didn't listen!

Good Samaritan - Brian has been to dozens of chiropractors with no help what-so-ever.

If you are going to try a chiropractor make sure they can give you actual references of people who's spines they have straightened from scoliosis or it could be a big waste of time and resources. It's really not going to be as useful as daily work on yourself putting the spine back into the position it is supposed to be and actually at first you need to over compensate so you would move the spine past normal to the opposite position. Brian has modified his chair recently to overcompensate in the opposite direction and it was amazing how fast it seemed to help.

Incline Bed Therapy is so good in so many ways that it surely doesn't hurt - but so far - not really helping much in that way.

With scoliosis is more complicated than mere stretching. Some parts you need to stretch and other compress and some rotate.

What ya gotta do is put the body back into alignment - which isn't straight forward and not the same for different curves.

There's going to be a class this Fall in Austin at the Iyengar Center for people with scoliosis that we are going to and then I'm seriously thinking of flying to wherever there is a Schroth practioner with Brian because I'm convinced that that therapy holds the most promise. We're also looking for a massage therapist with experience helping people with scoliosis for me to LEARN from because I think the daily work is vital and we will continue to search for a chiropractor that has some experience - but that seems like a long shot. The honest ones will tell you that they can't really do anything - except the CLEAR therapy. There is someone in North Austin (quite the drive) but it costs tens of thousands of dollars - and I'm not even sure it's the best choice - but makes much more sense than surgery and for some can be covered by insurance. If you had insurance and a practioner that would accept it - I'd go for CLEAR in a heart beat.  For us though, I think it would be better to fly to a Schroth practioner to learn instead rather than depending on machines. 

Surgery should always be the last resort. Our medical establishment can be truly ridiculous when it comes to chronic illness. If they don't understand it - they just want to cut at it!

[cherimoya_kid]

Yes, and I think Gokhale and Egoscue,  Activated Isolated Stretching, trigger point therapy, myofascial / deep tissue massage and other methods may have been discussed in this forum. One could try searching on those terms as well as on scoliosis.

Gokhale is a very powerful method.  If your posture is correct, then your muscles will help pull your spine back into place over time.  It is a good companion to any other method.

Neurocranial Restructuring is also extremely useful for many people.  It definitely got rid of a lot of my own misalignments.

[Dorothy]

I went and checked out the website on Gokhale Cheri and there is going to be a free seminar coming up in our city soon - we plan on taking it. There are no practitioners of Neurocranial Restructuring however in our area. Did you have scoliosis Cheri? We've found that chiro and a lot of the things that work wonderfully with other kinds of mis-alignments and blockages haven't worked for Brian's scoliosis. It seems to be a different kind of animal.

Thanks for posting about those therapies. We'll try to post about our experience with the Gokhale after the course.

[cherimoya_kid]

Could hanging upside down help to stretch your spine straighter?

I've got an inversion table.  I use it for a few minutes every day or two.  I don't think it hurts, but it's good to use it in moderation, don't overdo it.

[cherimoya_kid]

I went and checked out the website on Gokhale Cheri and there is going to be a free seminar coming up in our city soon - we plan on taking it. There are no practitioners of Neurocranial Restructuring however in our area. Did you have scoliosis Cheri? We've found that chiro and a lot of the things that work wonderfully with other kinds of mis-alignments and blockages haven't worked for Brian's scoliosis. It seems to be a different kind of animal.

Thanks for posting about those therapies. We'll try to post about our experience with the Gokhale after the course.

As far as neurocranial restructuring and alignments go, I found that I no longer had to be careful when I moved or exercised, to avoid pulling a muscle.  I just don't pull muscles anymore.  Before I did NCR, I had to be very careful how I moved, especially right after waking up.  I have heard of cases of scoliosis improving.

If you want to do it on the cheap, you can just get a blood-pressure bulb and some finger cots and do it on him at home.  I did about 300 treatments on myself in about 4 months, and had excellent results.

I would do Gokhale work first, really get his posture as good as it can be, and then do the NCR afterwards. Otherwise, bad postural habits could cause his bones to slip back into misalignment.

[PaleoPhil]

I found a scoliosis forum http://www.scoliosis.org/forum in which various nonsurgical treatments are discussed, including some mentioned in this thread. I found a few reports of success in achieving mild straightening of curvatures in young girls, but overall the patient reports re: nonsurgical treatments were not that encouraging.

I did find some interesting info re: minerals and scoliosis while quickly checking for any research I haven't seen before:

Changes of selenium, copper, and zinc content in hair and serum of patients with idiopathic scoliosis.
J Orthop Res. 2008 Sep;26(9):1279-82.
Dastych M, Cienciala J, Krbec M.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18404661
High zinc and copper and low selenium were associated with scoliosis. Some animal studies have found both high zinc or selenium and low zinc or selenium to be associated with scoliosis. So maybe it's the balance of zinc, copper, selenium and other nutrients, rather than simple deficiency in one, that's a factor.

Idiopathic Scoliosis Nutritional Deficiencies
Dr. Stitzel
http://www.squidoo.com/scoliosis-nutrition
"What researchers are finding is that the ratio of different minerals is more important than just a single mineral being high or low in the body. With larger more progressive scoliosis patients the ratio between copper and selenium was significantly different than control groups. This ratio was off by such a large degree because of both the elevated levels of copper and the deceased levels of selenium occurring at once. Selenium was found to be interlinked to a chemical known as osteopontin found in high levels with patients diagnosed with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis."

Scoliosis Affects the Entire Body
http://www.prcstudiocity.com/scoliosis.html
"Nutritional Support: Some scoliosis patients are found to have specific patterns of nutritional and hormonal imbalances. These include depressed levels of essential trace minerals selenium, zinc, and iron as well as absorption problems. When a nutritional imbalance is suspected, the appropriate referral to a nutritionist is made."

Top 5 Signs of Selenium Deficiency
http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/signs-of-selenium-deficiency/2011/02/22/id/387013

And this is something I had found years ago:

Scoliosis: Exercise, Diet & Yoga Alternative Treatments
By Sandy Simmons
http://www.ctds.info/spinecurve.html
"Scoliosis has been induced in a variety of animals through the creation of nutritional deficits and imbalances.  Not surprisingly, many of the nutritional imbalances linked to scoliosis in animals such as deficits of manganese, vitamin B6, and copper have all also been implicated as factors in osteoporosis in humans.  As noted above, research shows there are strong links between scoliosis and osteoporosis."

Because excessive selenium and copper have also been associated with scoliosis and other problems, I would caution people to be careful about trying copper and selenium supplements, particularly mega-dosing, and particularly if there aren't other symptoms of deficiency. I would think that getting one's nutrients as much as possible from foods would help avoid creating worse imbalances. Optimally, one would also get one's nutrient levels tested (http://chriskresser.com/selenium-the-missing-link-for-treating-hypothyroidism#comment-13410), though I have read that many nutrient tests tend to be considered unreliable, poorly understood, or excessively expensive.

FWIW, over the years I tried various forms of chiropractic (and I think other methods were mixed in by at least one chiropractor), yoga, exercises, massage, acupressure, improved posture practices, Gokhale, Egoscue and probably other things I've forgotten, but the only thing I've noticed any long-lasting improvement from so far is dietary change, though evolutionarily-informed Gokhale-type practices like minimizing Western-style chair sitting and doing more squatting and standing instead do help improve my short-term comfort. The improvements from dietary change were apparent mild straightening of curvature with 1/2" increased height, gradually improving flexibility in formerly tight muscles, better balance, and less back pain after stressors like long car rides.

[Dorothy]

Thanks for posting your experiences Phil and for those most interesting thoughts on the nutritional/mineral aspects of the problem.

When spending time reading blogs and on forums Brian determined for himself that it was only physical repositioning therapies and yoga postures specifically designed for a particular curve that had much of any effect on adult scoliosis. However, the other therapies could be used as adjuncts perhaps adding to the success.

That's why we are going to focus on adapting Brian's yoga practice to help with his scoliosis and hopeful learn some more useful stretches for his particular scoliosis if we can with the Schroth method - from which we have read some successful case histories with advanced adult patients. The massage work, chiropractic, Gokhale and some other things we are trying that I'm not ready to get into here - will all be considered adjuncts that could be helpful, but that we would not rely upon on their own.

For Zinc and Selenium I've been making pumpkin seed and brasil nut butters for Brian for awhile. I call pumpkin seeds "Zinc" or "Prostate" seeds and I call Brasil nuts "Selenium nuts". The pumpkin seed butter seems to reduce how many times Brian has to get up in the night to pee (determined by what happens when we run out )  Btw, plain seeds don't work. I have to soak, dehydrate and grind them into butters for Brian to be able to digest/absorb them properly.

But how does one get copper???

[Dorothy]

Yoga positions you should not do if you have scoliosis:

http://www.schrothmethod.com/about/yoga-for-scoliosis-menu

[PaleoPhil]

Nuts and seeds contain copper, so if anything, based on his nut butter consumption, Brian is probably more likely to be deficient on the zinc side of the zinc/copper ratio. Zinc is rich in red meats and shellfish. There's a relatively inexpensive "zinc tally" test to check zinc levels. I get zinc supplements that contain some copper, so that I don't deplete my copper levels too much by taking zinc, though I don't take zinc every day anymore anyway.

Yoga positions you should not do if you have scoliosis:

http://www.schrothmethod.com/about/yoga-for-scoliosis-menu

Yeah, I found that page thanks to your mention of the Shroth method. It matches what my father warned me about years ago. Schroth-type techniques combined with Gokhale and similar natural posture recommendations does seem like the most promising approach for me to do at home without a lot of expensive equipment, though the folks at the forum didn't seem impressed by Schroth. It looks rather similar to the yoga postures and other things I am already doing. It's interesting that they arrived at the same conclusions about the unhealthy yoga postures that my father and I did independently of them.

One thing to consider about nut butters is that they tend to be highly concentrated sources of omega 6 fatty acids that are sensitive to oxidation and mineral-depleting phytic acid (http://chriskresser.com/another-reason-you-shouldnt-go-nuts-on-nuts). So soaking is probably wise, to reduce levels of phytate and other lectins, and if he can only digest butter forms, maybe trying to eat only rather fresh nut butter and in limited quantities and/or with foods rich in minerals and omega-3 acids to try to stay balanced. According to one study it only takes a couple of brazil nuts per day to improve selenium status (http://www.ajcn.org/content/87/2/379.short, http://chriskresser.com/selenium-the-missing-link-for-treating-hypothyroidism). On the other hand, some African bushmen reportedly eat a lot of omega-6-rich mongongo nuts without noticeable ill effects, so maybe the risks are overblown?

[Dorothy]

Zinc is rich in red meats and shellfish. There's a relatively inexpensive "zinc tally" test to check zinc levels.

Brian loves shrimp and has been eating more meat since going more paleo - so hard to imagine a deficiency then - but if it's an absorption matter then that's different. But we'll get that zinc tally test done. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Yeah, I found that page thanks to your mention of the Shroth method. It matches what my father warned me about years ago. Schroth-type techniques combined with Gokhale and similar natural posture recommendations does seem like the most promising approach for me to do at home without a lot of expensive equipment, though the folks at the forum didn't seem impressed by Schroth. It looks rather similar to the yoga postures and other things I am already doing. It's interesting that they arrived at the same conclusions about the unhealthy yoga postures that my father and I did independently of them.

Did your father base his opinions on training or something in particular or was he just observant/intuitive? We've read lots of people that had success with Schroth. A bunch of people weren't impressed with anything at all of course. We just tried to concentrate on what the most people said they had some success with. If people don't have success with anything that's not very useful information I'm afraid - at least if you want to stay hopeful.

One thing to consider about nut butters is that they tend to be highly concentrated sources of omega 6 fatty acids that are sensitive to oxidation and mineral-depleting phytic acid (http://chriskresser.com/another-reason-you-shouldnt-go-nuts-on-nuts). So soaking is probably wise, to reduce levels of phytate and other lectins, and if he can only digest butter forms, maybe trying to eat only rather fresh nut butter and in limited quantities and/or with foods rich in minerals and omega-3 acids to try to stay balanced.

I always soak nuts first and then dry them before making them into butters. I also always add sunflower seeds and walnuts - they seem to be pretty good for balancing the butter it feels like. He eats the nutbutters usually with fruit. I make it myself so the butters are never old like you buy in jars and I always taste the nuts first and I am really good at detecting spoilage/rancidity and mold - I can smell if they are really fresh. I've had to search far and wide for decent nuts and then I usually reject half of them. I'm not sure he knows how spoiled he is.

[cherimoya_kid]

I found a scoliosis forum http://www.scoliosis.org/forum in which various nonsurgical treatments are discussed, including some mentioned in this thread. I found a few reports of success in achieving mild straightening of curvatures in young girls, but overall the patient reports re: nonsurgical treatments were not that encouraging.

I did find some interesting info re: minerals and scoliosis while quickly checking for any research I haven't seen before:

Changes of selenium, copper, and zinc content in hair and serum of patients with idiopathic scoliosis.
J Orthop Res. 2008 Sep;26(9):1279-82.
Dastych M, Cienciala J, Krbec M.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18404661
High zinc and copper and low selenium were associated with scoliosis. Some animal studies have found both high zinc or selenium and low zinc or selenium to be associated with scoliosis. So maybe it's the balance of zinc, copper, selenium and other nutrients, rather than simple deficiency in one, that's a factor.

Idiopathic Scoliosis Nutritional Deficiencies
Dr. Stitzel
http://www.squidoo.com/scoliosis-nutrition
"What researchers are finding is that the ratio of different minerals is more important than just a single mineral being high or low in the body. With larger more progressive scoliosis patients the ratio between copper and selenium was significantly different than control groups. This ratio was off by such a large degree because of both the elevated levels of copper and the deceased levels of selenium occurring at once. Selenium was found to be interlinked to a chemical known as osteopontin found in high levels with patients diagnosed with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis."

Scoliosis Affects the Entire Body
http://www.prcstudiocity.com/scoliosis.html
"Nutritional Support: Some scoliosis patients are found to have specific patterns of nutritional and hormonal imbalances. These include depressed levels of essential trace minerals selenium, zinc, and iron as well as absorption problems. When a nutritional imbalance is suspected, the appropriate referral to a nutritionist is made."

Top 5 Signs of Selenium Deficiency
http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/signs-of-selenium-deficiency/2011/02/22/id/387013

And this is something I had found years ago:

Scoliosis: Exercise, Diet & Yoga Alternative Treatments
By Sandy Simmons
http://www.ctds.info/spinecurve.html
"Scoliosis has been induced in a variety of animals through the creation of nutritional deficits and imbalances.  Not surprisingly, many of the nutritional imbalances linked to scoliosis in animals such as deficits of manganese, vitamin B6, and copper have all also been implicated as factors in osteoporosis in humans.  As noted above, research shows there are strong links between scoliosis and osteoporosis."

Because excessive selenium and copper have also been associated with scoliosis and other problems, I would caution people to be careful about trying copper and selenium supplements, particularly mega-dosing, and particularly if there aren't other symptoms of deficiency. I would think that getting one's nutrients as much as possible from foods would help avoid creating worse imbalances. Optimally, one would also get one's nutrient levels tested (http://chriskresser.com/selenium-the-missing-link-for-treating-hypothyroidism#comment-13410), though I have read that many nutrient tests tend to be considered unreliable, poorly understood, or excessively expensive.

FWIW, over the years I tried various forms of chiropractic (and I think other methods were mixed in by at least one chiropractor), yoga, exercises, massage, acupressure, improved posture practices, Gokhale, Egoscue and probably other things I've forgotten, but the only thing I've noticed any long-lasting improvement from so far is dietary change, though evolutionarily-informed Gokhale-type practices like minimizing Western-style chair sitting and doing more squatting and standing instead do help improve my short-term comfort. The improvements from dietary change were apparent mild straightening of curvature with 1/2" increased height, gradually improving flexibility in formerly tight muscles, better balance, and less back pain after stressors like long car rides.

That's interesting.  I once read a chiropractor's webpage where he talked about different mineral deficiencies being associated with different vertebra being out of alignment.

[Dorothy]

That's interesting.  I once read a chiropractor's webpage where he talked about different mineral deficiencies being associated with different vertebra being out of alignment.

Are you saying here that each vertebra being out of alignment would correlate to a different mineral deficiency? Like if c6 was out of alignment that would mean a particular mineral(s) would be deficient?  You wouldn't remember the name of the chiropractor would you?

[PaleoPhil]

The connection between mineral deficiencies and scoliosis has been known since at least 1984, but there's not enough profit in it and still way too much resistance against healthy eating in society for it to result in anything other than a handful of alternative practitioners using the knowledge, unfortunately.