Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked

[Projectile Vomit]

I'm not sure, I haven't tried. Are you concerned about salt? The few pinches I suggest adding are a very small amount compared to the ~1/2 gallon of water. You can't even hardly taste it. It's not like a traditional fermentation recipe where you add 1-3 tablespoons to 1/2 gallon of shredded, pounded vegetables.

[Projectile Vomit]

Just tried testing the pH. I'm guessing the pH of my most recent batch is about 5.0, but this level is at the very edge of the range the pH tape I bought was designed to test for so I can't be sure how accurate this is. Also, the batch of fermented broth I made was made with beets as the fermentation vegetable, which discolors the liquid and dyed the pH strip a reddish hue that makes it hard to gauge its color. Hmm, might have to try another way...

[eveheart]

I'm also on the lookout for larger jars that I can fit larger bones into without having to saw them, as I have a bunch of femur knuckles that are too large to fit into my normal fermenting jars.

I got my low-price one-gallon glass jars from a restaurant supply store. The restaurant supply store sold them (filled with pickles, which I gave away) for around $8, half the price of a new one-gallon canning jar. You might get an empty one from a restaurant. I'd also ask on Freecycle.

[Joy2012]

Eric, when your raw bone broth is done, do you place it in a refrigerator to preserve it?

Taste-wise, when is the best time to drink the raw broth after the day you start fermenting it?

[eveheart]

Eric, when your raw bone broth is done, do you place it in a refrigerator to preserve it?

Taste-wise, when is the best time to drink the raw broth after the day you start fermenting it?

Adding animal parts to fermenting vegetables is common practice in Korean kimchi making, where the addition of animal parts does not change the basic fermentation process. In that case, the degree of fermentation is determined by ambient temperatures and taste preferences. Somewhere on this forum, PaleoPhil posted charts showing the rate of leaching of calcium from bones into water (in hours, not days). In that case, vinegar or lemon juice can help. In a vegetable ferment, the pH of the ferment develops over a few days, creating the acidic environment.

The best time to drink the raw broth (or any other ferment) would be at the end of fermentation (when bubbling ceases), but some tastebuds prefer a different degree of fermentation. In the case of kimchi or sauerkraut, somewhere around 55 degrees F. is good for long term storage. In an American kitchen, the refrigerator will keep the ferment more-or-less steady, but the process of fermentation does continue slowly at cool temperatures. The vegetables get mushy if storage is too cold for a long period of time.

Eric's method can be done by fermenting and eating/drinking, so storage is not the aim. The questions you ask can be answered by experimentation in your climate.

[Projectile Vomit]

Eric, when your raw bone broth is done, do you place it in a refrigerator to preserve it?

I don't. What I do is let the broth acidify enough to suit my tastes, which usually takes 4-6 days. At this point the broth's acid enough that any really bad bacteria will probably be dead, so I'll just start drinking from the container until it's gone. Usually as soon as I start drinking from one container, I'll also start the next batch going so I always have some ready to drink.

Also, on the topic of vessels, I noted above that I was on the lookout for a vessel with a wider mouth so I could put larger pieces of bone in it. SCORE! I was searching the web for just such a vessel, and found that Anchor makes what they call a Hocking Jar with a lid on it that will work just fine for what I'm doing. The jar has a nice wide mouth, its lid covers thoroughly without sealing so gasses can escape, and it's durable and easy to clean. I found the 2 gallon version at my local Walmart for $10 each, and bought two earlier today. Can't beat that as far as value!

[Hanna]

I'm not sure, I haven't tried. Are you concerned about salt?

No, not really. But I try to leave my food as much in its natural state as possible - unseasoned, unmixed etc. So if it is not necessary to salt a food, I won’t do it. In fact, I don't salt or season anything.

However, when fermenting vegetables, isn't it necessary to add salt in order to prevent alcoholic fermentation and rotting?

[Projectile Vomit]

Hi Hanna, salt doesn't prevent rotting, it merely guides it. Fermentation is one of many processes that involve bacteria or fungi breaking down a once living organism during its decay process. Salt limits the species of bacteria that can live on or in a substrate to primarily lactic acid bacteria, which 'rot' the substrate in a very particular way, yielding the type of tastes and textures some of us have come to appreciate. That said, you don't have to use salt to ferment vegetables, you can do so without adding salt. It's just that if you don't add salt, there's a possibility that a different suite of bacteria will dominate and the rotting will not yield the kind of end-product you'd like. I've done a few salt-free fermentations, and they've worked fine.

Adding salt doesn't prevent alcoholic fermentation. This is prevented by choosing the right substrate that's not too high in sugar. If you use salt to ferment kombucha and add a lot of sugar, you'll eventually end up with a decent alcohol percentage if you let the fermentation go long enough.

[Joy2012]

Eveheart and Eric, thanks.

One more question: It seems the lid for the vessel cannot seal too tightly? So canning jars will not do? What about ordinary glass bowl covered with something? What about corningware?

[Projectile Vomit]

No, you don't want a lid that seals. You want air to be able to escape. You can still use a mason jar lid, just don't screw it on tight enough that it seals tight. You do want to put something on your broth jar as a cover though, otherwise fruit flies will get in and you'll have a bunch of dead flies on top of your broth, which is yucky (technical term).

[PaleoPhil]

I found the 2 gallon version at my local Walmart for $10 each, and bought two earlier today. Can't beat that as far as value!

Cool, thanks.

My understanding is that rotting is any decay process, including those involving microbes which are pathogenic to humans. Whereas what people refer to as "fermentation" typically involves beneficial microbes.

When most people talk of rotting, they seem to imply an unwanted process that produces particularly foul odors and dangerous substances. For beneficial processes, people typically use the term "fermentation."

[Joy2012]

No, you don't want a lid that seals. You want air to be able to escape. You can still use a mason jar lid, just don't screw it on tight enough that it seals tight. You do want to put something on your broth jar as a cover though, otherwise fruit flies will get in and you'll have a bunch of dead flies on top of your broth, which is yucky (technical term).

Thanks. So any glass bowl with a cover will do.

[zaidi]

What about using Fish with bones in fermentation process? Are fish broths equally good as bone broths from lamb etc?

[Projectile Vomit]

Excellent question zaidi, I don't know. If you've got a supply of fish bones from waters you're confident aren't polluted, I'd give it a try!

[Joy2012]

Eveheart and Eric,  do you think it will work if I use miso instead of sea salt?

[eveheart]

Eveheart and Eric,  do you think it will work if I use miso instead of sea salt?

"It" will "work" with nothing but plain water, but then you'd have a possible problem with undesired bacteria. The day and night temperatures play a major role - Eric in Vermont ferments longer than I do in California.

Miso is made with the same salt that you would add to your ferment. Miso also adds a flavor that you may or may not like. If it's the flavor that you're after, why not stir in some miso before drinking the finished broth? If it's the salt you're after, you can try with miso (in varying amounts) and see if you like it, but it might add complications for a beginner.

Sometimes, I like to add fish sauce, not miso, to fermenting vegetables when I start a batch. Or hot peppers. Or ginger. Or onions/garlic. Etc. There is a Japanese fermenting style called tsukemono, of which some variations use miso.

I use canning jars because they are sturdy and cheap. Ferments can build up pressure and bubble over, so put your container a bowl.

Why not make a plain batch and experiment with flavors once you got the hang of it. There are exactly a bazillion fermentation recipes in the world!

I like the author Sandor Ellix Katz. His website is www.wildfermentation.com.

[Joy2012]

Thanks. I will start with plain salt then.

Can all vegetables be fermented in this raw bone broth? Or certain kinds of vegetables are preferred?

[political atheist]

Preparing bone broth in a traditional way(boiling for 24- 72 hours) heals the gut of non-RAF-ers...this should tell us something.

I guess it tells us that bone broth traditionally prepared is a symphony of nutrients which heals the gut: gelatin(HIGH in SPECIFIC gut healing/regenerating amino acids), glucosamine, chondroitin, minerals, vitamins and more.

Im planning to do a 7 days bone broth fast to heal my stomach/intestines.

[Projectile Vomit]

Indeed traditional bone broths can heal the gut for some people. They also take lots of energy, offer zero probiotics or prebiotics, and the proteins and amino acids are damaged somewhat by the heat. I suspect a raw version that creates the broth using a fermentation process rather than heat adds a lot more of value.

Good luck on your broth fast, let us know how it goes.

[political atheist]

what do you mean by ''some people''? lol... everybody human got the same gut...  everybody needs the proline, glycine, glutamine, proline and the other aminoacids, condroithin, glucosamine, minerals, vitamins from the broth the repair SPECIFICALLY the gut.

if all the nutrients in the broth are good enough to heal the human gastrointestinal tract, especially the gut of the cooked food eaters, then it means that the bone broth prepared in traditional way is special.

Even native american indians drank bone broth in place of water(''herbed'' water, probably tea). Native indians who were 6.5- 7 feet tall with super muscular and strong body living well over 100 years in perfect health.

[eveheart]

Political Atheist, cooked foods, including bone broth, do not sit well with me, however, I'm aware of claims that they are helpful to some people.

You are posting on the raw section of this forum, in a thread that is labeled as raw bone broths. Perhaps there is a better section for your experience and knowledge of cooked foods, such as your journal.

[Projectile Vomit]

I understand the drive to latch on to certain strategies as things that fix everyone. In reality, those usually don't measure up.

There are a lot of reasons why someone might have gut problems, and lack of nutrients supplied by bone broth is only one of them. I've personally met people who tried hard to heal themselves using bone broth, believing it to be the cure-all you make it out to be. They might have enjoyed some benefits, but it didn't deliver everything they expected and certainly wasn't the cure-all they were looking for.

For some people, as Eveheart noted, the fact that the broth's been cooked for a long time and delivers a range of heat-damaged amino acids, proteins and fats as well as heat-created toxins can be a source of irritation, sometimes even inflammation. All I'm doing is inviting you to be open-minded as you enter into your bone broth fast so as to be aware of what it's doing that's beneficial, and what it's doing that might not be.

Having used cooked bone broths for years before trying my raw fermented versions, I think I'll be sticking with the raw versions from here on. I have no fancy scientific studies that factor into this decision, just experience, just a sense of how I feel drinking cooked bone broths versus a sense of how I feel drinking raw, fermented versions.

Best of luck on your fast!

[political atheist]

bone broths are/were used to put healthy muscle and weight on thin people, and to heal flu/colds and any other disease(the saying: a GOOD broth will heal any ailment)... yeah... all disease begins in the gut and all healing begins in the gut. if the gut is healthy, then the other parts of the body will heal soon.

probably those people who dont get ''delivered' with broth' were not eating enough broth and they didnt prepared the broth properly with the proper ingredients.

you cant go against 5000 years of wisdom and real life experience.

heat damaged proteins, fats? well 5000+ year old wisdom and real life experience tells us that they are good enough to heal any disease, then they are good enough for me.

[Projectile Vomit]

I just invite you to remain open-minded about what the broth is doing that's beneficial and what it might be doing that isn't so beneficial. Just because people have been relying on a healing modality for a long time doesn't mean it works. People are rationalizing animals, not rational ones.

Good luck on your broth fast.

[Joy2012]

Having used cooked bone broths for years before trying my raw fermented versions, I think I'll be sticking with the raw versions from here on. I have no fancy scientific studies that factor into this decision, just experience, just a sense of how I feel drinking cooked bone broths versus a sense of how I feel drinking raw, fermented versions.

Will you be more specific about your experience with regards to how your felt while drinking cooked broth versus how your are feeling drinking raw broth?