Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked

[Projectile Vomit]

Sure. Cooked broths always left me with a heavy feeling in my gut. No discomfort beyond this, just a heavy feeling. I don't get this with fermented versions.

[Hanna]

When most people talk of rotting, they seem to imply an unwanted process that produces particularly foul odors and dangerous substances.

This unwanted process is what I meant by „rotting“ (didn’t know the appropriate English term).

Is it possible to ferment cauliflower and kohlrabi - perhaps even without salt? There are some in our garden, too many to eat at once…

P.S.: Concerning kohlrabi, I just found this: http://www.ehow.com/how_7524079_ferment-kohlrabi.html

[eveheart]

This unwanted process is what I meant by „rotting“ (didn’t know the appropriate English term).

Is it possible to ferment cauliflower and kohlrabi - perhaps even without salt? There are some in our garden, too many to eat at once…

To rot means to break down with bacteria or fungus. The scientific term is to decompose. Rotting may or may not be an unwanted process. If you want a word that implies an unwanted process, to spoil is more appropriate.

All the vegetables you mentioned ferment well. The amount of salt, or absence of salt, in the fermentation process is variable and depends on how hot/cold the temperature is, how long you want to keep the vegetables, and what your taste buds prefer.

Fermentation of food is easy, but practice makes a better product. Like any other culinary art, you might have failures, but you get better at it the more you make. I think there is enough information on the internet to learn how to ferment food.

[PaleoPhil]

Technical definitions aside, when people talk of a food being "rotten," they normally mean that an unwanted process occurred. "Fermented" is a more clearly positive term and will be less likely to be offputting to others, though even that turns off some squeamish folks. I've seen Internet critics use the word "rotten" when they want to disparage fermented foods and discourage others from trying them.

[Lorenzo]

Hey everyone,

I added about 800g/1.8lbs pork neck bones & 225g/0.5lbs of beef liver, some collard greens, mushrooms, onion, garlic, 1/2-3/4 tsp of salt & enough water to cover everything.

My fast will probably end in 16 days, it would be ideal to have this ferment until then so I could start with the broth 1st few days, then move on to the flesh.

I've eaten high meat before, but leaving this combo in water worries me since I've never done it before or seen someone eat it.....If I don't get a reassuring response or hopefully some pics I'm going to put it in a double boiler on a small burner & extract (not cook) tomorrow for a few hours then freeze until the fast is over.

Do these pics/ingredients look like I have the right setup ?

[Joy2012]

Sure. Cooked broths always left me with a heavy feeling in my gut. No discomfort beyond this, just a heavy feeling. I don't get this with fermented versions.

Thanks, Eric.

I am making my first raw bone/vegi broth. It is OK to uncover the bowl cover and rearrange the contents during the fermentation process, right?

[eveheart]

Do these pics/ingredients look like I have the right setup ?

How are you keeping the solids submerged?

[Lorenzo]

How are you keeping the solids submerged?

They just stay like that in the 1st two pics, in the last one I raised them with a spoon.

Does everything look good to you ?

[eveheart]

They just stay like that in the 1st two pics, in the last one I raised them with a spoon.

Does everything look good to you ?

I'm not familiar with that type of fermentation set-up, with the ingredients exposed to air in a wide bowl, so I really can't comment.

[Lorenzo]

I'm not familiar with that type of fermentation set-up, with the ingredients exposed to air in a wide bowl, so I really can't comment.

I noticed some white foam today, bubbling & covered it with foil....smells strong too.....do you stir your fermented products or leave them ?

[eveheart]

I noticed some white foam today, bubbling & covered it with foil....smells strong too.....do you stir your fermented products or leave them ?

I only do submerged fermentation with no stirring, and I've never seen the set-up you are using. I don't want to give you the wrong information, since you seem to be following some other kind of set-up.

Here is what I understand about fermentation, from www.wildfermentation.com "The simple key to successful vegetable fermentation is to make sure your vegetables are submerged in liquid. That’s it, the big secret. Usually the liquid is salty water, also known as brine, but fermentation can be done without salt, or with other liquids, such as wine or whey." In this case, meat and bones are also added to ferment by the same principle. By submerged, I mean "completely underwater." Submersion is done so that undesirable airborne bacteria, molds/yeasts, and fungus do not grow in your product.

I am concerned that your ferment will turn into a toxic, inedible, swampy slime. How do you prevent your end-product from turning into compost?

[Lorenzo]

I only do submerged fermentation with no stirring, and I've never seen the set-up you are using. I don't want to give you the wrong information, since you seem to be following some other kind of set-up.

Here is what I understand about fermentation, from www.wildfermentation.com "The simple key to successful vegetable fermentation is to make sure your vegetables are submerged in liquid. That’s it, the big secret. Usually the liquid is salty water, also known as brine, but fermentation can be done without salt, or with other liquids, such as wine or whey." In this case, meat and bones are also added to ferment by the same principle. By submerged, I mean "completely underwater." Submersion is done so that undesirable airborne bacteria, molds/yeasts, and fungus do not grow in your product.

I am concerned that your ferment will turn into a toxic, inedible, swampy slime. How do you prevent your end-product from turning into compost?

We share the same concerns ....This is my 1st time doing raw broth, just following what I read here. My only success with fermentation was leaving meat outside for a while, it looked rotten but smelled & tasted great, when I did it in jars, they smell nasty & I threw the jars out.

I'm not sure about this smell & can't taste anything because I'm fasting, I might just boil this & freeze, do you think that would be safe ?

I think I'm gonna stick to leaving meat outside & making cooked broth, every other fermented product I tried to make turned out horrible.   

[eveheart]

We share the same concerns ....This is my 1st time doing raw broth, just following what I read here.

I think you overlooked the part of the instructions that said to make it like a fermented beverage. The word fermented refers to a pretty well-defined process. You sound like an enthusiastic experimenter, so you probably would enjoy fermentation. Start with the basic utensils (glass jar, something to keep the ingredients submerged) and learn how to adjust the amounts of salt and length of fermentation time, which will depend on your climate. Here, it's too hot to make a really good-tasting ferment in the summer, so I start fermenting in November and continue through the winter. Eric's vegetable base is beets or other root vegetables; my standard vegetable base is cabbage and some apple or pear. Collards make a pretty strong flavor. I know another method for collards, but it tastes bad to me. You can slow down fermentation in warm weather by putting the jar in the refrigerator after the brew starts bubbling and the liquid becomes cloudy. Experience will teach you how the ferment looks, smells, and tastes day by day.

[primalgirl]

Can I just soak the bones in water, without the fermenting and get bone broth? How long do I soak and should I eat the raw marrow or leave it in the bones? Maybe either way. Should I add veg to it?

[eveheart]

Can I just soak the bones in water, without the fermenting and get bone broth? How long do I soak and should I eat the raw marrow or leave it in the bones? Maybe either way. Should I add veg to it?

A while back, there was a post with info on the amount of calcium leached out of raw bones in unheated, acidulated water. I can't find the chart that was posted, but the general idea is if you add some acid (lemon juice, vinegar, etc.), you can get raw bone broth in a matter of hours. In fermented raw bone broth, the weak brine turns acidic from lacto-fermentation. Dodery is another version in which the bones are fermented for a long time. I'm not sure about adding vegetables to bones in acidulated water... the veggies would just end up being wet vegetables, if I understand what you are saying.

[Joy2012]

Eveheart, so what is the benefit of fermented bone broth if the minerals in bones could be extracted just by placing bones and vinegar in water for a few hours?

[eveheart]

Eveheart, so what is the benefit of fermented bone broth if the minerals in bones could be extracted just by placing bones and vinegar in water for a few hours?

Outstanding taste (umami: "pleasant savory taste") and nutrition (probiotic microorganisms).

[Lorenzo]

I think you overlooked the part of the instructions that said to make it like a fermented beverage. The word fermented refers to a pretty well-defined process. You sound like an enthusiastic experimenter, so you probably would enjoy fermentation. Start with the basic utensils (glass jar, something to keep the ingredients submerged) and learn how to adjust the amounts of salt and length of fermentation time, which will depend on your climate. Here, it's too hot to make a really good-tasting ferment in the summer, so I start fermenting in November and continue through the winter. Eric's vegetable base is beets or other root vegetables; my standard vegetable base is cabbage and some apple or pear. Collards make a pretty strong flavor. I know another method for collards, but it tastes bad to me. You can slow down fermentation in warm weather by putting the jar in the refrigerator after the brew starts bubbling and the liquid becomes cloudy. Experience will teach you how the ferment looks, smells, and tastes day by day.

I followed exact instructions before for high meat, fermented beans, etc.... they all failed. Plus anything in jars or in liquid like the broth smells really bad to me, I wouldn't eat it.....no fermentation for me.

[Joy2012]

Outstanding taste (umami: "pleasant savory taste") and nutrition (probiotic microorganisms).

Thank, eveheart.

I started eating my fermented cabbage and fermented bone broth. The taste is quite acceptable. I am a satisfied customer. 

In the raw bone broth, the raw chicken feet look intact although an appetizing meat aroma has come out.  I moved the broth to the refrigerator and added some ACV.  Let's see what will happen.    Upon second thought, maybe I put in too little vegetable at beginning? I put in only raw green cabbage and I already took out and ate almost all the cabbage. Should I add more vegetable to the bone broth? Should I take it out of the fridge to continue to ferment?

[eveheart]

Upon second thought, maybe I put in too little vegetable at beginning? I put in only raw green cabbage and I already took out and ate almost all the cabbage. Should I add more vegetable to the bone broth? Should I take it out of the fridge to continue to ferment?

Amounts of vegetable, fermentation times, and that sort of thing are up to your individual taste. Here are a few facts that I've read about:
- "They" say that good strains of probiotics take a few weeks to grow, so a quick ferment won't give you the best in the way of probiotics. Nevertheless, shorter fermentation times do make tasty dishes.
- "They" say that good strains of probiotics grow best between 65 - 72 degrees F. That's why I rarely ferment in the summer, where my inside temperature gets into the 80s or more daily. That's also why I don't like to rely on fermentation in a refrigerator, where the temperature is too low. You can buy a kimchi refrigerator for mucho dinero, make one with thermostats and an old fridge, set up your own system in a cooler, rig up a swamp cooler to keep your ferments cool. I live in a very small apartment, so I don't do any of this, just wait for cooler weather.
- Oxygen is the enemy. Personally, I use fermentation air-locks, which I buy at a local beer-brewing supply store for about $2 each. I drill a hole in a canning jar lid, put a drilled cork in the hole, and put the air-lock in the cork. The fermenting ingredients release carbon dioxide, which escapes through the air-lock, resulting in oxygen being displaced by CO₂ in the air space above the ingredients. The air-lock only lets the CO₂ escape, but doesn't let air in. You can also buy water-trough fermentation crocks that lock out air and let CO₂ escape.
- I have read that some people use a microscope (not paleo - LOL) to identify bacteria and molds in their ferment. Not something I do, but it is an interesting possibility.

[van]

When I used to culture my goat's milk, including kefir, I kept the milk at around 98-100.   When the milk was room temp, or close to the temps you heard were beneficial, more yeast strains developed than bacteria strain.  This was evident by how runny the kefir was.   My logic says that if you want to grow and develop strains that will inhabit the gut, they need to be able to sustain themselves at body temp.  Now or course, this may not be at all the primary purpose but to simply ferment foods with bacteria that are not harmful. 

[eveheart]

Good point, Van. Different strains of lactobacillus work best at different temperatures. I'm not too science-y myself, but I understand that whatever the strain (Lactobacillus strain name) is not the end product (lactic acid). It's probably more complex than I understand, though. Maybe someone else can explain or clarify, for those who are interested.

[van]

I don't have but limited 'science' myself.   To further my point,, along the same lines would be taking probiotics that have been evolved and grown on lactose, if one's diet has little sugars.   But then having said that, maybe prebiotics could feed those milk/lactose bacteria.    So much to discover and learn here.    So many stains of probiotics in health food stores come from lactose based bacteria...

[Joy2012]

Thank you, Eveheart and Van.

My fermented bone broth and another bowl of fermented vegetables have been uncovered daily. Are they bad then? Why is oxygen an enemy?

Another question: I buy raw grass-fed gruyere cheese from a local farm. Since the cheese is too salty for me, I soak the cheese in drinking water first in the fridge before I consume it. The soaking water becomes very salty. What do you think of using the salty soaking water to ferment vegetables or bones? Is the soaking water similar to whey water?

[van]

you can do away with the need for adding salt by juicing half the veggies and adding that juice instead of water.  That juice and a fine shred of the veggies will start immediate fermentation, which will get a head start on the undesirable strains....   If I were attempting this experiment of adding bones to the mix, I'd let the veggies get fairly well fermented before adding bones.