Problems eating frozen meat?

[glennm01]

It seems to be generally agreed that meat that has not been previously frozen is much better than that which has, but I'm wondering if anyone out there has actually experienced any problems eating previously frozen meat. Or better yet, has anyone always consumed mainly frozen meats (including organs) and still experienced the usual positive results one would expect from a RAF diet?

[Sully]

All of my meats are basically frozen. I buy bulk..I went to the farmers market and got some cheap grass fed ground beef. It was all previously frozen.

Of course fresh is best, but frozen is nowhere as near as damaged as cooked.

I feel I still get most benefits eating frozen meat. I don't think freezing makes meat toxic, but cooking does.

Get fresh if you can.

[boxcarguy07]

All of my meats are basically frozen. I buy bulk..I went to the farmers market and got some cheap grass fed ground beef. It was all previously frozen.

Of course fresh is best, but frozen is nowhere as near as damaged as cooked.

I feel I still get most benefits eating frozen meat. I don't think freezing makes meat toxic, but cooking does.

Get fresh if you can.

This.

I've only rarely been able to get fresh meat.

[reyyzl]

It seems to be generally agreed that meat that has not been previously frozen is much better than that which has, but I'm wondering if anyone out there has actually experienced any problems eating previously frozen meat. Or better yet, has anyone always consumed mainly frozen meats (including organs) and still experienced the usual positive results one would expect from a RAF diet?

    I don't like frozen meat.  It gets mushy.  Some of my meats accidently froze one time, so I gave them to my pets.  I'd rather give them unfrozen too, but it's more important to me to eat fresh, than to them.

    I read that freezing white meat killing the possible microbes stops them from forming the right B Vitamins that they would have inside a person.  Do you eat white meat?  I do quite a bit.

    A friend on a primal diet forum ate all his raw meat frozen.  I think that destroys the microbes that make vitamins.  He swore by frozen meat.  He said it made his spine tingle.  Like it did something good for his chakras.  He also took enzyme capsules from a supplement bottle and complained about everything else. 

    AV writes that freezing meat mutates the escherichia coli and makes it proliferate much faster.

    Inuit ate some of their meat frozen of course.

[livingthelife]

How do you acquire enough fresh meat for yourself? Even though we have a good community of grass-based, sensitive agriculture in my area, even their butchering and dairy production falls off in winter months.

[goodsamaritan]

The frozen meat I get is from dressed organic chickens...
But sometimes I get live chickens and our cook dresses them for me.
Other meats like beef, goat I get are fresh.
I suspect the big fish like tuna and blue marlin are blast frozen at the port where they were caught.

I have compared frozen sirloin beef with fresh and I can say that I like defrosted beef sirloin a lot more than fresh beef sirloin that has been in the refrigerator for 4 days.

How do I acquire fresh meat?  I'm lucky to live in an area where I live there are two big enough wet markets and several fresh goat slaughter on the spot places.  Sometimes living in the big city has its advantages.

If I have to move houses next time I would choose to live very near the big wet market.  No need for a refrigerator then.

[glennm01]

Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like nobody has experienced any adverse effects whatsoever from eating raw meat and/or fat that has been previously frozen. Interesting. One would think that if freezing is indeed so damaging, then somebody would have a negative experience to report.

The reason I'm asking this, by the way, is that I'm trying to decide if it's really worth it to go to the trouble of getting fresh grass fed beef. Whole Foods Market sells a decent variety here, but the prices could be better. I guess I'll have to try frozen myself and see how it makes me feel...

Anybody else?

[Guittarman03]

I don't eat any frozen meat, not b/c I've had problems with it, but I guess I'm just worried it's not as good for you.  So I buy everything fresh from Whole Foods, and I know what you mean about it being a little pricey. 

One way you can mitigate this is just to buy lots of ground beef(I get 15%), dark chicken, eggs, and some liver.  They are all less than $5/lb here in Vegas, which means for 15% ground beef you can get 1000 calories for under $5 - you'd spend more for a footlong subway.  Although I don't eat as many eggs anymore, I just don't do as well as I used to with them.  I will soon replace eggs/berries with grasshoppers, crickets, and meal-worms - which will be almost entirely free! 

[TylerDurden]

Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like nobody has experienced any adverse effects whatsoever from eating raw meat and/or fat that has been previously frozen. Interesting. One would think that if freezing is indeed so damaging, then somebody would have a negative experience to report.

The reason I'm asking this, by the way, is that I'm trying to decide if it's really worth it to go to the trouble of getting fresh grass fed beef. Whole Foods Market sells a decent variety here, but the prices could be better. I guess I'll have to try frozen myself and see how it makes me feel...

Anybody else?

I have heard of a few people who've suffered problems with prefrozen meat - 1 or 2 Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet Yahoo Group. However, it's very rare.

My view is that if you can get hold of fresh,nonfrozen grassfed meat, then you should, unless it's a problem financially, in which case, getting hold of prefrozen grassfed meat isn't the end of the world.

[Raw Kyle]

I think grassfed is more important than fresh vs. frozen. So my order of importance is raw - grassfed - fresh. Fresh being very far behind the other two, grassfed is much closer in importance to raw to me than fresh is to grassfed.

[coconinoz]

in the last 10,000 years the human brain has been steadily decreasing

dietary long chain pufa's (esp. dha & aa), essential to the vitality of the brain, eyes, heart, nervous system, sit mostly in all cell membranes of animal bodies incl. human
cell membranes are destroyed by the freezing of land or sea meat; grinding such meat, on the other hand, results in the peroxidation or rancidity of pufa's, which in turn creates free radicals

by eating any kind of meat & sat fat (visible adipose tissue) people develop strong bones & muscles; by eating iodine rich in tandem w/ pufa reach meats & eggs people develop more refined brain, eyes, heart, nervous system -- a vicious circle of sorts: the less dha in the system > the less appreciation of its value

dha deficiency does not call you up as a sudden acute pain; most people develop various symptoms as they grow or age & surrender their life to the medical industry

likewise, since the beginning of large scale farming & herding (10,000 years ago) most human populations have been living on cereal grains, milk products, plant matter in general & now prefrozen or ground meat
it has been claimed that already the neanderthal developed arthritis by switching from hunting to the farming-herding diet; perhaps the 1st casualty close to homo sapiens

the thing is, though: eating cereals & milk products, eating prefrozen or ground meat have become statistically normal, habitual, just the way things are; to do otherwise does require a conscious decision & sustained effort -- not for the faint of heart
moreover, merely 3 generations -- parent to grandchild -- are needed for gene mutations to slowly begin to take place or for societal norms to become ingrained

[glennm01]

Are you sure that ground beef you're getting is grass-fed, Guittarman? At Whole Foods here in L.A., the grass-fed ground beef is around $8/lb. They usually have some for $4/lb, but it's grain fed.

One way you can mitigate this is just to buy lots of ground beef(I get 15%), dark chicken, eggs, and some liver.  They are all less than $5/lb here in Vegas

[Raw Kyle]

coconinoz, if you were to eat several pounds of fresh wild caught fish (like tuna or salmon) a week would that supply you with a good amount of pufa to go with a mostly frozen grassfed animal food diet? I really can't get fresh meat all the time, and I have yet to find a source of fresh suet. The only source of suet I've used so far has been Slanker's, and as far as I know they only ship frozen.

And what kind of differences in your health could you expect from a diet with adequate pufa vs. a diet with damaged or missing?

[van]

  Coconinoz,  I would really like to learn more about how freezing destroys essential fatty acids in fat.  I have frozen stores of fat that I bought from very healthy grass fed cows.  I also eat bone marrow.  My understanding is that when meat is frozen, the water in the meat cells bursts the cell membrane when frozen, thus when defrosted, exposes the contents to air...  But with fat, there is not enough water to cause this damage.  Could you please let me know what source you gleened your info from.  Thanks.

[lex_rooker]

Everyone seems to agonize over the possible damage that freezing does to various foods - especially meats.  What choices do we have and what are the consequences of the alternatives?  The warmer meat is the faster it breaks down (oxidizes - free radicals anyone, and decomposes) so storage and shipment become impractical without some method of preservation.  On a hot summer day in Southern California, a road killed animal becomes a bloated mass of mush in less than 24 hours.

Maybe the question should be:  In our modern society, where it would be very difficult to kill and eat our daily food on the spot, how do we keep it in the best condition from the time it is killed until we have the opportunity to consume it?

Temperatures low enough to freeze and preserve meat are a normal during several months of the year north and south of the Tropic lines so this seems a relatively natural and safe option.  Chemicals, cooking, and dehydration all seem far more destructive as does leaving the meat to quickly rot in warm temperatures.

Another question which is seldom addressed is High Meat.  No one seems to know or be concerned about the damage done to the cellular structure, fatty acids, or proteins of High Meat. 

Thoughts?

Lex 

[coconinoz]

ok, i'm back here

kyle:
myself, i tend to rely on shellfish -- which, like eggs, is living food &, unlike eggs, is naturally high in dha -- 1-3 times weekly
i was experimenting w/ dha eggs before, but i stopped this for good when i had the realization that it's not natural to feed chicken seaweeds as if they were seagulls; shellfish, anyway, is much higher in dha (& epa) than even dha enhanced eggs

re. my experiences, it's hard to tell in definite terms as this nutritional issue has long term results & effects
1 thing i've noticed, though, is that when i was eating a lot of sat fat (aka candle wax, mostly stearic acid) w/ my land meat my body was getting ever so gradually heavier & stiffer; nowadays that i prefer fresh lean meat this trend has reversed itself

(i still eat raw eggs daily, but now the free range hand gathered type)

[coconinoz]

van:
i was referring mostly to the lean part of the meat, i.e. the muscle tissue, as well as to other tissues (as in organs for ex.)

as you say, freezing bursts open the cell membrane
even though this applies to all cells all over the body, including those in adipose tissue, i tend to think the adipose tissue (made of cells that contain a drop of sat fat & mufa inside the cell itself) is a case in its own
what i was referring to is the damage of the cell membranes in other tissues, since this membrane damage affects especially the vitality of our brain, eyes, heart, nervous system
it is precisely the cell membranes that host the long chain pufa's (aa, dha, epa); these long chain pufa's are not visible to the naked human eye > thus muscle tissues are called lean meat

if you like book references, you may take a look at
~ crawford & marsh, the driving force, 1989
~ cunnane, survival of the fattest, 2005

[coconinoz]

lex:
i agree w/ your view of the situation

re. remedial measures, 1 thing i currently do is what i posted above as a reply to kyle, who was wondering precisely about remedial measures

i read somewhere in an ecology book (perhaps by leopold?) that variety & diversity, on 1 hand, & stability & health, on the other, feed each other:
variety/diversity in foodstyle <> systemic stability/health

re. high meat, i clearly remember having made a couple of posts on this board re. the deleterious effects of meat fermentation (aka high meat)
meat fermentation, both aerobic & anaerobic, is yet another thing i experimented w/ in the past & then dropped for good -- in scientific terms, feedback loops > bifurcation > ascending spiral

see capra, the web of life, 1996

[van]

    Coconinoz,  just went back and read all your posts.  You certainly have an inquiring mind.  Would you be willing to share your discoveries with your veg, ferments.   And any additional insights as to why you gave up high meat.  I understand your viewpoint as to how the process may degrade the lipids,  but was not the bacteria/yeasts etc. helpful for you?   Having for a couple of years now shifted to almost zero carb,  I still intuit that a complete 'shift' with intestinal flora has not occured.  I mean afterall, for almost all of my life whatever bacteria I harbored ate freely off of carbs.  Now that there are none, a whole different set of bacteria have probably 'moved in'.  Watching my dogs, who eat entirely raw,  they love to eat deer and goat pellets and 'rotten' meat any chance they get....  What do you think, what do you know...  Care to share?  Van

[coconinoz]

hi van,
thanks for the compliments; you must have an inquiring mind yourself if you went through all my posts
& you must have noticed i've gone through my own evolution (a series of bifurcations): i crossed more than 1 threshold in the last 6 months
did i mention i eat dha rich food, which is good for...?

"was not the bacteria/yeasts etc. {in high meat} helpful for you?"

were you applying this to my raw vegan years, the answer would be yes
not nowadays, though
mainly for 2 reasons, besides the saturation of the pufa's that you mention:

(1) as you know, the digestion of animal food is done by specific (endogenous or exogenous) enzymes & microorganisms in an acidic medium; since the human saliva is alkaline, a ph appropriate to process plant matter, it seems that the best eating style for raw animal food is the rapid bolting down, whereas plant matter, on the other hand, calls for thorough chewing
in ruminants the chewing is so thorough, indeed, that more than 1 pass is needed; then, as a result of the anaerobic fermentation that takes place within the ruminant multistomach system, all (short chain omega 3 or 6) pufa's in their food become saturated into transfat by the ruminant's anaerobic endogenous microorganisms
when it comes to high meat, from my experience -- visual, taste, mouthfeel -- as well as my analogical reasoning i've come to the conclusion that the microorganisms in this limited/controlled aerobic fermentation of meat (specific bacteria, molds, yeasts) need carbs to feed themselves &, consequently, perform their own kind of gluconeogenesis from the meat in the culture in order to survive & thrive
(please note that bacteria & fungi mutate or otherwise change their nature just in a few hours or days)

in a nutshell:
~ high meat ain't meat any longer
~ the microorganisms present in high meat are not the 1s appropriate for the digestion of raw animal food

saliva links:
http://www.knowbetterdogfood.com/dogcare/health/nutrition.php
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html
http://www.all-creatures.org/mhvs/nl-2003-wi-meat.html
http://knowledgeisthekey.info/index.php?topic=30.0

(2) so if high meat is not needed to digest raw animal food, what would it be needed for?
serotonin -- just as wine, cheese, bread, etc. all addictive plant carbs -- until the body becomes serotonin resistant

when it comes to serotonin, i seem to benefit more from spending time outdoors, esp. when the sun is available, & move around between sun & tree shade or near a water body (cunnane's shore based scenario; see the photo under my name where i'm having the time of my life)

"a complete 'shift' with intestinal flora has not occured.  I mean afterall, for almost all of my life whatever bacteria I harbored ate freely off of carbs.  Now that there are none, a whole different set of bacteria have probably 'moved in'"

that's my case, too -- we go through a phase transition period (the phases in this case being plant carb & raw animal food)

myself, i ate deer pellets up in the hills a few times back in the early summer; not sure whether they helped in any way, except for the freedom felt from overcoming a mental block
deer eat black volcanic mud for the microorganisms they need to digest their vegan fare
re. your dogs, they may not necessarily be experiencing the same phase transition you are in; also, dogs, unlike humans, have been carnivores from their evolutionary day 1 & have an acidic saliva
we humans have some apish hominid background, you know

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36840063&postID=3352018840006345635
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Low%20fat%20moods

"I find it highly plausible that sugar causes depression. Kick your serotonin system often enough and it will go on strike. Or develop 'serotonin resistance' comparable to 'insulin resistance'."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17250776&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[coconinoz]

sorry, can't find the edit/modify button

i meant to say that bacteria divide & reproduce, with or without mutating, in just a few hours or days

[TylerDurden]

1 thing I should point out is that the trans-fats produced by the cow are natural trans-fats and are actually beneficial to the human body, unlike synthetic trans-fats produced industrially.

As regards high-meat, I would say that the fact that wild carnivores so routinely eat fermented meat is an indication that it is necessary for health.

[coconinoz]

"wild carnivores so routinely eat fermented meat is an indication that it is necessary for health"

... for the wild carnivore, that is

1 point i was trying to make is that we, present day humans, have a debility with & addiction to carbs as a result of our apish evolutionary background (or for other reasons too)
until each & every 1 of us, as an individual, crosses a major threshold, goes through a major life bifurcation, carbs -- from plants or from the fermentation of either plants or meat -- remain problematic, troublesome, taxing if not utterly deleterious

[TylerDurden]

I just don't see fermented meat as "carbs". it's rotting fat/protein, that's all.

[van]

    Hi Coconinoz,  Have to read your words several times.  For there seems to be layers of information.  It is hard to sit and write what we truly are thinking, or feeling. At least all of it.  I really much more prefer speaking, so much more room for give and take. 
  So the several times I did try high meat,  I felt really none of the highs mentioned here.  It did seem to digest quite well, and had overall positive effects with stool, although fairly negligible.   The last batch I made was a couple of weeks ago.  I ended up throwing it away for it had such an ammonia smell to it.  Seemed intuitively not right.  I had written earlier on the forum here that I was concerned that living right on the coast in norther ca. that I was probably inoculating the meat  by airing it outside twice a day with the local molds and fungus's so prevalent here on the coast; the stuff that grows on every north facing building. 
   I have read that in
Europe where they still make cured meats, that they have very sophisticated inoculants that they use in the curing process.   Which brings me  back to asking you about your veg. or herbal ferments.  Still in the experimentation phase?  Have you tried the EM products?  When I read about those, they all seem to be maintained on molasses.  Hence a carbohydrate food source.  And once again, since I don't eat carbs,  I am suspicious that my gut would not harbor them happily.  For example most human derived acidopholis and other intestinal flora need carbs especially lactose to flourish. 
   Another thing I am curious about is the ph of the large intestine.  The lactic acid bacteria create an acid envirement, which in turn contributes to peristalsis.  My understanding that an all meat/fat diet creates an alkaline ph in the large intestine.  I wonder how much this acidity or alkalinity effects one whole body.  Does either ph condition or effect the blood that filters through the intestinal membranes? 
   In your last response, are you suggesting that the high meat has become a carb due to fementing?   And without flipping back to your earlier email and risk losing what I have written,  you write that your diet is rich in dha or, ??  I can't remember the initials.  Is this different from eating animals/fish/etc raised on green?
   Coconinoz, you have my attention,  know that whatever you share will be muchly appreciated.  Van