Problems eating frozen meat?

[Nicola]

Coconinoz, are you shore that carnivores have an acid saliva? Why have humans got an alkaline saliva if we ate mostly meat before agriculture?

I have asked Lex and others if they bolt the meat and fat down; most chew and what about the fat...would the fat not make things harder to digest (the need for more acid)? I can't see animals in the wild bolting down fat.

Nicola

[coconinoz]

i've come to the limit of my current understanding
i wish i had a solid background in microbiology & biochemistry
i've yet to read lynn margulis' books

nicola:
talking about background, we humans have a common evolutionary forerunner w/ the apes, as a result of which the common foodstyle has been in the homo sapiens' system longer than both the paleo animal food & the neolithic farming & herding diet

i do not know what the ph of the cro-magnon saliva was

i, too, have been wondering about the reason(s) current human saliva is the way it is; that's why i posted some saliva links the other day: so people can come to their own conclusions & hopefully share their realizations

myself, i began eating raw animal food -- after 4 years of raw veganism -- by chewing as thoroughly as possible; my digestion of the raf was not optimal (neither had been the vegan actually) because animal food was a novelty to my system or as a result of unneeded chewing

some forum members here were advocating the bolting eating style... as a time saving strategy!; this made no sense in my mind, something i mentioned in 1 of my earlier posts on this board

eventually, though, i came across the saliva issue & this led me to switch over to the bolting style, which is what i'm still practicing

i do resonate, however, w/ nicola's point re. the appropriateness of bolting vs chewing when it comes to dietary adipose tissues (high in sat fat)
dietary sat lipids, to me at least, taste sort of sweet & kind of remind me of certain plant things such as durian, coconut oil, avocado, nut butters; thus, acc. to taste, dietary adipose tissue would be better digested if chewed just like plant matter ()

re. lex's eating style, he eats prefrozen ground meat; i tend to think this is not, digestion-wise, the same as eating entire fresh meat, which is what i'm discussing in this thread

van:
i had my last avocados & cherimoyas back on june 9 this year -- they sure made my suffer w/ bloating & pain; over the following 5-6 weeks, thinking it was my duty to increase the sat fat intake at all costs, more often than not i ate coconut oil w/ land meat until i became so very utterly disgusted w/ the acid reflux etc. that gave away whatever co was left from the last gallon (~ 4 liter) of 1 of the best co available in the us; ever since it's been just raw animal food (+ a pinch of ground seaweeds that i take as a mineral supplement); luckily, i do not crave plant matter at all

tyler:
what is "rotten" biochemically? sugar(s) perhaps?

[coconinoz]

here are a few quotes from capra's the web of life pp. 228-244:

during the 1st 2 billion years of evolution ... bacteria continuously transformed the earth's surface & atmosphere &, in so doing, invented all of life's essential biotechnologies, including fermentation, photosynthesis, nitrogen fixation, & rotary devices for rapid motion ...

{3.5-2 billion years ago bacteria developed} a variety of new metabolic pathways for extracting food & energy from the environment. 1 of the 1st bacterial inventions was fermentation -- the breaking down of sugars & conversion into atp molecules, the 'energy carriers' that fuel all cellular processes ...

the avenue of evolution through symbiosis allowed the new forms of life to use well tested specialized biotechnologies over & over again in different combinations. for example, whereas bacteria obtain their food & energy by a great variety of ingenious methods, only 1 of their numerous metabolic inventions {fermentation, photosynthesis, nitrogen fixation, breathing in oxygen} is used by animals -- that of oxygen breathing, the specialty of the mitochondria

[TylerDurden]

tyler:
what is "rotten" biochemically? sugar(s) perhaps?

The fats and proteins are rotting.

[Sully]

I can't see animals in the wild bolting down fat.

Nicola

Well, alligators do. But they have extremely strong digestion. Also, they don't have a jaw built for chewing.  I read somewhere that Neanderthals had bigger jaws and teeth. So do Eskimos I think.

[donrad]

During the freezing and thawing process it is true that some cell membranes are broken. The rupturing of the cell membranes does not destroy the fatty acid or amino acid molecules.

During digestion our body's goal is to break everything down into fatty acid and amino acid molecules, and small sugar molecules.The freeze/thaw may actually help. It starts in the mouth with chewing and mixing.  Salivary enzymes are designed to split starch, not for meat digestion. In the stomach the food is churned into chyle and acted on by acids and enzymes. The small intestines add more acids and enzymes. The food is then absorbed at a molecular level further down the line.

I am not aware of any destruction on the molecular level other than oxidation over time. Lower temperatures reduce the oxidation rate. Removing the oxygen does the same thing. So does removing moisture.

Bottom line is that freezing, drying, or grinding meat should not be a problem if oxidation is controlled. I highly recommend a vacuum sealer. Meat, fruits, vegetables, and oils maintain their nutritional integrity much longer when sealed in bags, bottles, jars, or canisters; and are refrigerated or frozen. I recommend a high-end FoodSaver. If you like ground meat do it just prior to consumption, food processors do a pretty good job but it takes some trial and error.

It is interesting that the average length of the small intestine of people who evolved near the equator (Africa) is twice as long as the averge of those who  evolved in more northerly colder climates (European). The longer intestine is better adapted to vegetable digestion while the shorter is better adapted to meat. As a species however, we still have a medium length intestine indicating we are omnivores.

[Raw Kyle]

The fats and proteins are rotting.

I think the point being made here is that rotting proteins and fats may be broken down into sugars. Sugars are the simplest of organic chemical storage molecules. It's not like if you allow protein to break down it just breaks down into smaller pieces of protein, and the same with fat. I suppose protein will go into amino acids and some be converted to glucose (just like in the human systems digestion of proteins) and the fats will be broken down into their acids and glycerol phophate, then further into fatty acids and glycogen or a near glycogen chemical.

Rotting is just another word for digestion, the digestion of food by microbes.

[coconinoz]

thanks much for your post, don rad; it sure makes a whole lot of sense in my mind

here's more info for any1 interested:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=6ry7pDNNZ6gC&dq=%22freezing+effects+on+food%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Hv4Do9pKs5&sig=4hMbzYDZlxlvrBGafOxx5pOiRI0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

(incidentally, my 1st slanker's order, pork & goat, is coming in a few days; i'm excited)

wow!
i could even edit this post if i wanted to

[coconinoz]

as i see it now, the alternatives to frozen & vacuum sealed land or sea meat are:

~ hunting & ocean gathering
or
~ wet aged meat

see
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/infonews-items/aged-beef/

[riy freeman]

coconinoz's previous quote on freezing damage states damage is done to cell membranes. That doesn't imply that FA's are oxidated or damaged in any way. You can punch holes in the cell membrane due to ice crystals but that can mean that it breaks up the aggregate arrangement of the individual FAs and not the destruction of the molecular structure of the FAs.