Author Topic: New approach  (Read 21351 times)

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Offline Inger

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Re: New approach
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 12:27:51 am »
I am doing well with some nuts. But not many. And I am very picky about the quality. My favorit are wild Siberian Zederkernels. I try to get wild, fresh nuts. I eat them for dessert after a fish meal or something. Bad quality nuts are very bad for me. And too many and regularely.. But sometime I almost crave nuts! If I am not picky about quality then, it ends a bit bad.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2012, 05:22:11 am »
Phil - you have more than redeemed yourself!  ;)

My opinion is that these arguments about plants not being what they were back in paleolithic times is lame. Nothing we eat is the same as it was back in paleolithic times! The suet from the cows I eat certainly isn't.

Everything has been hybridized to death and finding truly wild animals that live off of wild foods and not eating from farms or getting at least some modern agricultural food as at least part of their diet is not what most of us here are able to do. I know I'm not able to.

I'm not living in paleolithic times. I'm living in a modern world and shopping! I have to choose the best I can from what I have available to me. I can't even get a whole fresh animal. I don't have access to what my paleolithic ancestors had and they don't have access to what I have.

For me it is interesting to know what they ate, but I can't depend solely on that information to decide what to eat for myself. They might have something that I don't have access to that I have to substitute for.

Nuts have much more than anti-nutrients and enzyme inhibitors. Some nuts have high amounts of other nutrients like Phil's brazil nut example with the selenium. I do soak them which negates most of those problems. I know the argument that our ancestors wouldn't have soaked them - but how do we know that!? Squirrels plant their nuts to have them grow a little before eating them - how do we know that our ancestors didn't do something similar? Besides, sometimes eating a little bit of something not good is acceptable if we need something else the food contains and perhaps can sometimes be even beneficial - like b17 for instance. In small amounts it can be quite beneficial.

Variety to me is more than just for my physical well-being. It is for my emotional and social well-being too - and for enjoyment of my food. I think those things are important as well.

If I don't feel like something is hurting or distracting from my vibrancy or health I like to keep my options open. Then again - my digestive fire is pretty good, I'm pretty healthy and plant foods seem to agree with me generally. I'm far from saying that nuts are good for everyone. I'm just suggesting that discounting them outright for everyone might do the raw paleo diet a disservice. Our ancestors ate nuts and seeds. Some of us feel just fine eating some. Why categorically say that they are unhealthy and shouldn't be eaten - let alone compare them to feces?

You know, if feces tasted as good as pistachios do -- I might think of eating it.  -d





Offline jessica

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Re: New approach
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2012, 10:35:13 am »
can you guys wrap your heads around the idea that paleolithic diets were not completely ideal, and perhaps their health wasnt either? but maybe more ideal was the way they lived their life in a more natural way, with less social and environmental stress and more time to enjoy simple pleasures?  can you imagine that perhaps they ate sub optimal foods like nuts every once in a while simply to feel full and to have any kind of nutrients?  all of this arguing is just as theoretical as anything, and what does it matter?......we will never know, and even with science breaking down every molecule of foods and labs telling us ever reaction in our body, these are all just piece and parts of a puzzle, nothing about this is concrete...maybe it is our luxury now to find time to sort through data that helps to validate our own best guess of what is more paleo or not and also more in accordance to how we choose nourish ourselves, but to me its like spinning tires or chasing ones own tail

Offline Brad462

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Re: New approach
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 10:58:13 am »
I have to disagree with you completely Jessica.  I am curious why you think that their diets weren't ideal.  That doesn't make sense since you're following a paleo diet, no?  I think it's the other way around; their diets were almost perfect, but their environment was harsh and they suffered do to lack of technology.  Just my humble opinion.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 06:59:19 pm »
Last night I had 4 eggs (whites and yolks), somewhat later tomatoes and vegetables and then... pine nuts! Most of it were delicious crops from my yards. 

I think perfection doesn't belong to this world and our pre-fire ancestors tended somehow to do the best they could in accordance with their actual environment.  They could not always, and probably seldom, find the exact foods that would have suited them best in a constantly evolving world.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 07:09:36 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New approach
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 07:33:16 pm »
Last night I had 4 eggs (whites and yolks), somewhat later tomatoes and vegetables and then... pine nuts! Most of it were delicious crops from my yards. 
I have many pine-trees in my garden, but I only got pine-cones falling. Where are those pine-nuts?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 09:31:01 pm »
 
I have many pine-trees in my garden, but I only got pine-cones falling. Where are those pine-nuts?

Inside?  8)

Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2012, 09:51:39 pm »
Inside the cones between the wooden things. But last year there were no pinyon pine cones here and I hope there will be some this year. The ones I have are from 2010 and still good, fresh. I'm at 220 m elevation only, very much lower than Wikipedia states.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_nut
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 11:01:50 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New approach
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 11:02:28 pm »
Do pine nuts last a long time after falling? Or do they get eaten up  quickly despite being in the cone?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: ... devilish "healthy" omega 6 fats, facts
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2012, 11:10:10 pm »
I agree that nut/fruit fats are probably not as optimal as animal fats, but you're painting an excessively negative picture that isn't supported by the evidence.

Hi PP,

I see a lot of evidence that high amounts of w6 rich plant fats are detrimental to our health. And you don't convince me that nuts give us any important nutrient that we can't get from animal food and vegetables. My own experience is that all plant fats with the exception of fresh raw coconut milk are very bad for my body, brain and cognitive function. Beside this, since 1999 I have seen a lot of other rawfoodists who tried a diet HIGH in plant fats after they realized that high carb in the form of high fruit consumption damages their bodies in the long-run and makes them aging faster than any other diet. Not one of them was successful, really. They all failed miserably, including myself. Some of them became very depressive and got very concrete suicidal thoughts. I forced one of my friends, who was very desperated, to eat a lot of fresh seafood (high in w3 and dha) everyday and to throw away all plant fats. After some days he felt much better, more vital and optimistic. It's no joke. Again, I'm not talking about a handful of nuts every now and then. It's the same with one cigarette every now and then.

More than small amounts of nuts cause digestive trouble in most people. Seldom can anyone eat more than 100 grams of nuts per day without getting steatorrhea in the next days. That is only one of many arguments against nuts. In my view it's already enough to classify them as "undesireable". But no question, some nuts are very tasty. So many things are tasty, right?

I know that some bushmen eat nuts. They do this out of desperation. They are living in extreme scarcity, not seldom in very aride zones. No rainfall, no green pastures, no animal fats. And these nut eating bushmen are everything else than posterboys for human health, longevity or inventiveness. Furthermore they most often cook the nuts to make them more digestible. Cooking PUFAs is definetely a very bad idea, regarding optimal health. People in countries like Nigeria in which w6 rich palm oil is the major source of fat in human nutrition have the lowest life expectancy in the world. Coincidence? Perhaps. Masai tribesmen who live on animal fats are much taller, stronger and most probably much more intelligent than their plant fat eating colleagues.

There is overwhelming scientific evidence that a high omega 6 consumption and the resulting imbalances cause a huge number of human illnesses. This is not the case in apes and squirrels. Their brains, for example, are not dependant on a high w3 fatty acid supply. For us, seafood, fats and organs from wild and/or grassfed animals are really brain boosters, nuts are not. I have no doubt that the nuts in your health food store are as unhealthy as all other health foods like tofu, agave nectar and rice crackers.

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2012, 11:13:44 pm »
can you guys wrap your heads around the idea that paleolithic diets were not completely ideal, and perhaps their health wasnt either? but maybe more ideal was the way they lived their life in a more natural way, with less social and environmental stress and more time to enjoy simple pleasures?  can you imagine that perhaps they ate sub optimal foods like nuts every once in a while simply to feel full and to have any kind of nutrients?  all of this arguing is just as theoretical as anything, and what does it matter?......we will never know, and even with science breaking down every molecule of foods and labs telling us ever reaction in our body, these are all just piece and parts of a puzzle, nothing about this is concrete...maybe it is our luxury now to find time to sort through data that helps to validate our own best guess of what is more paleo or not and also more in accordance to how we choose nourish ourselves, but to me its like spinning tires or chasing ones own tail

I fully agree with you, Jessica.  ;)

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: New approach
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2012, 11:19:22 pm »
Do pine nuts last a long time after falling? Or do they get eaten up  quickly despite being in the cone?

They quickly mutate into aggressive aliens and kill all your neighbours in a bloody slaughter party before they construct a spaceship out of the remaining skulls to fly back to their mothership.

I don't know why they do this. I guess it's the high w6 and high PUFA content.

Löwenherz

Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 12:27:35 am »
I fully agree with you, Jessica.  ;)
Löwenherz
So, for once we agree!  :)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 12:59:00 am »
I must be the alien! ;)

I wonder Lowenhertz if you are taking an entire extreme diet and just blaming the nuts!

I eat animal fat and fatty seafood and still - my body wants and likes soaked nuts and avocados. It's not that they not only don't do me any harm - but they do me a lot of good - as far as I can tell.

I do believe that so many people are attracted to these extreme diets (yes, including raw paleo as well as raw vegan) because they are already sick. I seem to be one of the only people here that got interested in raw foods so many decades ago because of curiosity and logic rather than because I felt I had to do something to gain back base-line health.

So many assumptions about why native peoples eat nuts and seeds. How can anyone say that it is only because they can't find anything else? Talk about adapting your "facts" to fit your ideas!

How do you know Jessica that the nuts were sub - optimal for them?

Tyler - not all pine trees make pine nuts and some are so small you would not be able to gather them. It's only particular kinds that give us the delicious pine nuts.



Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 02:34:48 am »
How do you know Jessica that the nuts were sub - optimal for them?
Oh yes, sorry I disagree with Jessica on this point even if I agree in the general sense with most of her post.

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline jessica

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Re: New approach
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 04:00:30 am »
dorothy i was only giving an example..! i dont know nuts about nuts! except that squirrels and little worms tend to eat up pinon nuts as quickly as they hit the ground and that, besides commercial versions, i havent found many trees healthy enough where i have lived to create large seeds that were worth the work of harvesting

Offline Brad462

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Re: New approach
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 04:36:00 am »
I am a nut. Someone eat me. :)
I'm actually a really nice guy, once you get to blow me.

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Offline Brad462

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Re: New approach
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 04:53:44 am »
Why would our paleo ancestors soak nuts before they ate them?  The idea seems hilarious to me.  I never understood the whole soaking thing myself.  I don't think it is necessary.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: New approach
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 04:58:34 am »
I don't soak them... The other instinctos I know don't soak them neither.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline jessica

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Re: New approach
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 05:28:42 am »
Why would our paleo ancestors soak nuts before they ate them?  The idea seems hilarious to me.  I never understood the whole soaking thing myself.  I don't think it is necessary.

i know that acorns are soaked to release the tannins, which is a substance that was used to tan a hide, and are also unpalatably acrid and also unhealthy at high levels......and the meat of the acorn can then be used to make a flour which can be roasted, baked with etc...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 09:40:55 am by TylerDurden »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 05:56:25 am »
In paleo times they might have buried stores of them for a time like squirrels do. The enzyme inhibitors are released along with a lot of the antinutrients when a seed starts to grow. Having seeds in a dry environment is not natural - the dew in the morning often is enough to start a seed to sprout. I soak them instead of going through the trouble of planting them and digging them up. I have adapted so many paleo type things to my modern way of life in a similar way. 

If you make high meat you don't necessarily go and hang it in a tree right or bury it right?

That being said - it's not really my reason. It is that when I soak them they make me feel better than eating them raw. I also like to have the largest variety of foods available to me to choose from - partly because I know that my diet is could never be as good as my ancestors were. I can't get whole fresh animals and their organs, the soil is depleted and poisoned, the air is poisoned and hybridization of both plants and animals makes my choices far inferior and maybe if I'm lucky I'm living longer than they did so might have other needs. So, hopefully, with lots of choices I can make up for the pitfalls a bit. I feel like nuts can do that for me somewhat - especially with hard to get nutrients. I also (living in this environment) might need more of something than my ancestors did for balance. My diet is already so incredibly narrow that I wouldn't want to remove from it that doesn't seem to do me any harm - just to maybe help to cover my bases.

I'm certainly not saying that nuts would be good for everyone - especially those that have allergies or sensitivities to them or those with a weak digestive system - but I wouldn't count them out if you soak them, they taste good and they make you feel good! I think they are a good source of lots of minerals and important nutrients that can be hard to get otherwise for me.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 06:20:33 am »
That was cute - Jessica doesn't know nuts about nuts!

Your general point is well-taken.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 10:38:55 am »
Native Americans in my part of the country btw would take acorns, put them in sacks and into running streams in order to wash away the tannins before using. If you want to use acorns without a river or stream like the natives then you have to boil the hell out of them over and over.

I bet most native cultures figured out similar ways to handle seeds/nuts to make them edible and healthful.

One native pecan tree here can make for massive feasting where the animals native to the area wouldn't even be able to eat them all - much like the acorns - they are extremely plentiful.

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: New approach
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2012, 11:34:13 pm »
It doesn't matter what kind of oil, what brand, flesh or pit, virgin or not IF it is old/rancid. The MOST important thing about oil in general - but especially olive oil in particular - is the HARVEST DATE....not the press date because the olives could be around a half a year or a year before being pressed so that the oil is rancid while being made!
Why is the harvest date the most important? It's well known when olives are harvested, late autumn to early winter, you don't need some label to tell you that. Why would olives sit around for half a year before getting pressed? I don't think they could even survive that long. Fruits will go bad pretty quickly even when well refrigerated/stored.
In detail how olive oil is made: How Olive Oil Is Made

Offline Dorothy

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Re: New approach
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2012, 10:54:32 am »
aLp - sometimes olives can be kept a full year before they are made into oil by poor manufacturers. It's just what happens. Yes, the fruit goes bad - but it is still pressed and makes bad oil. One of the worst problems is that they can be picked too early or too late too - when too late they are allowed to fall to the ground and then gathered.

It's really pretty easy to smell and taste when oil is good - the problem is finding the good oil to train your palate with. That's when you have to rely on things like harvest dates.

I'm trying to get across that all these bad experiences people have had with olive oil might not be wise to generalize to truly fresh oil. I feel terrible from every single oil available from every health food store and specialty store in this city and others, yet I feel wonderful from the good stuff.

 

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