Author Topic: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet  (Read 9010 times)

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Offline John Worfin

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What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« on: October 13, 2012, 06:49:36 am »
I am wondering if anyone has read this article on the primal diet on the"raw food health dot net" website. They promote raw food but pretty well trash the primal diet. There are many references to studies and the health of tribes. Overall it seems well documented but has a definite flavor of mainstream medical diets.

"The primal diet and paleo diet have several flaws, the most prominent being its low intake of carbohydrates from nutrient-rich fruits and vegetables, high intake of animal foods, and, consequently, high fat intake."

I am new to the paleo diet and feel somewhat vulnerable in my convictions not having much direct experience with it. Thus I am curious what people on this forum would think about the arguments presented in the article.

The link is "http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html" but I don't know if this forum allows posting links. If it doesn't show up just search for raw food health primal diet. It was the second hit on my search.

Jeff

Offline eveheart

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 07:33:02 am »
"The primal diet and paleo diet have several flaws, the most prominent being its low intake of carbohydrates from nutrient-rich fruits and vegetables, high intake of animal foods, and, consequently, high fat intake."

I eat raw paleo with very low carbs. The science of low-carb, moderate protein, high-fat diets is adequately documented for certain ailments, which is why I follow it. My results are astoundingly good. It is not wise to generalize by type of diet without taking into consideration the person.

What are you seeking for yourself? Start from there and find out what is best by reading specific articles and then do the research on yourself to find out what is best for you.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Polyvore

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 07:58:27 am »
Perhaps the Primal diet is low on carbs, but raw paleo in general has no carb restrictions beyond that of the digestive limit. Personally I eat lots and lots of fiber and some high carb fruits, though I do not think carbohyrates are an issue at all because it is a MACROnutrient.
From a dietary point of view, the most important things to worry about are MICROnutrients, and to be honest the micronutrient density in primal and paleo foods far exceed that of almost all high carbohydrate deits.

"The Primal Diet = The Inuit (Eskimo) Diet" THIS IS NOT TRUE. Biggest fallacy in the article, and simply ridiculous statement. Considering it is so early in the article, and with such a bold and green text I enter into the article with doubt.

Paleo diets promote high antioxidant fruits and vegetables and herbs and seeds, and you will find both the ORAC values and vitamins and minerals in these promoted foods have at least 3 times the amount compared to that of starches or grains or legumes.
Then we start to look at offal and whole seafood, which we eat a lot of (muscle meat is the reject meat, and you will find a lot of westerners will ONLY eat muscle meat cuts). We injest far more omega 3 DHA and EPA than any other diet, we injest far more vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin K2, and far more healthy sourced CLA and far more butyrate than any other diet. We have adequate selenium and magnesium consumption, no other diet can boast.
If you look up all of these, people are told to supplement for them all because the average person will benefit from extra consumption of them... usually because they are deficient in them because their western, or vege-tarian/egan or any other diet does not supply them with any of these things.

We now we look at the aging effect, we have basically no consumption of carcinogenic Nitrosamines, no consumption of AGEs or PAHs... and so basically no cause for disease beyond the toxic disease that is unavoidable because of our wrecked environment.

The science is on our side...

Now I cannot speak for the Primal diet directly, but the Primal diet does not represent all of our eating habits here at Raw Paleo. People find different things work for them and so some of us are Primal, others eat lots of fruit and fish, others eat carnivorous... it really depends on your genetics, your epigenetics and your personal taste and current state of disease.

Now lets look at the faults of the article directly: he looks at a single documented tribe. He refers to modern anti dietary-cholesterol studies, which have been debunked thousands of times and so are of no value to the study of meat consumption and disease. He quotes William C. Roberts, who does studies on herbivores, and thus his research has no correlation to us because we are obviously adapted omnivores.

If you are confused about where to go from here, then simply don't eat muscle meat and raw fat alone. Stick to fish and grass fed organs as all of the long lived tribes did. If you really want to eat lots of fruit and veg like he says, remember that our domesticated fruits in the supermarket are not in fact ANYTHING like those the Kung or the Trobriander ate, so stick to undomesticated fruits and veg and you MIGHT be able to replicate their experience with 'high carbohydrate' paleo.

I hope I could give you some insight into things without troubling you too much. Good luck figuring out your own journey!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 03:38:42 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 10:21:24 am »
Primal/paleo diets vary too much to make generalizations about.  For instance, in the summer, I might eat 6 bananas, 3 mangoes, and 2 avocadoes for dinner.  That's a lot of fiber.  Even in the winter I tend to eat about that same amount of fiber, but with more avocadoes and bananas, and not very much watery fruit.

Also, fat intake varies widely on the paleo/primal diets. Some people eat 80% fat by calorie, some eat 15 or 20%, and everything in between.

Eating less than 15 or 20% fat by calorie generally causes low body temperature, low libido, panic attacks, extreme mood swings, and other health problems.

I know this, because I've done a low-fat diet in the past, and have spoken with quite a few raw foodists who've done the same.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 05:06:01 pm »

The claim that we ate raw vegan in Africa millions of years ago is debunked by the fact that multiple sources show that we started eating lots of meat prior to any  emigration out of Africa.

The claim re Eskimoes not living long lives and relating that to diet is laughable since the Eskimoes lived in one of harshest climates in the world, so could hardly be expected to live long, regardless of diet. Plus, they lived in igloos which had some contamination re smoke, as I recall. William mentioned that once.

Stefansson also claimed that Eskimoes aged faster, claiming grandmothers  habitually appearing at the age of 23, which is obviously completely bogus.

The claim re constipation and mostly-meat/Eskimo etc. diets is also false as most such dieters report farting a lot LESS, not more. I am a classic example, in that I fart a huge amount if I eat grains or processed foods, and even fart a little if I eat raw fruits, but I hardly fart at all during periods where I eat only raw animal foods. Since Eskimos eat a  meat diet that is partially raw,  they would not have been susceptible to much farting at all.

The claim re excess  animal protein causing problems re the acid/alkali balance theory has already been long debunked:-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

Besides, raw animal food has a much higher PH value(ie lower acidity) than cooked animal food, with heavily processed precooked animal foods usually having even higher acidity levels:-

http://www.eutechinst.com/techtips/tech-tips35.htm

Amusingly, the article cites excess calcium as being responsible for the higher levels of hip-fractures in Eskimoes, but then diverts to pretending that excess protein is the cause. Since excess calcium in diets has been linked to osteoporosis and weak bones in general around the world, the excess calcium notion is way more believable. But, since most raw-meat-eaters don't consume fish-bones they are unlikely to consume excess calcium unless they are foolish enough to consume raw dairy.

Then there's the retarded claim that we didn't start eating meat until very recently. In fact, archaeological records show us starting to eat (raw) meat in a big way from 3 million years ago:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1c.shtml#timeline%20start

As for the Kung, they lived in a far less harsh climate than the Eskimoes, so naturally they lived longer. Nothing to do with diet. Then he goes on about the supposed health of other hunter-gatherer tribes. Like Weston-Price, he has bugger-all decent info on them, and even grudgingly admits that such tribes had high infant-mortality-rates. The simple fact is that all HG tribes had constant problems re finding resources/poor weather etc. so that citing any of them as paragons of health is just stupid. All one can state is that they were less prone to the diseases of civilisation as they did not have access to heavily overprocessed foods.

The claim re a multitude of studies showing that excess animal protein in one's diet is harmful is, of course, a deliberate lie. All such studies show that COOKED animal protein is a problem, not RAW animal food protein. Indeed, the few studies on raw animal foods,(only ones on raw dairy) have shown some health benefits therefrom.

The link made between atherosclerosis and excess meat consumption again ignores that all such studies focus on cooked animal foods. In fact there are now countless studies focusing on the harm done by heat-created toxins derived from cooked foods(such as advanced glycation end products) and their direct link to the incidence of atherosclerosis:-

http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/25/10/2157.short

Similiarly, when the levels of heat-created toxins are reduced, the symptoms of atherosclerosis are reduced, indicating that raw-meat diets, but not cooked diets, are great for RELIEVING atherosclerosis, not increasing it at all:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15220206

He then rails against fats, but we have too many anecdotal pieces of evidence showing that low fat raw vegan diets are extremely harmful to health. And all the scientific literature is against cooked fats, not raw fats, anyway.
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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 06:20:06 pm »
I don't know why you're wasting your time at all to debunk some random guy who decided just like that to start writing on raw food diet and health..

http://www.raw-food-health.net/about-the-author.html
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Andrew is a former newspaper reporter who broke free of a job with the help of Site Build It, and now works on the site full time while working on a number of other journalistic writing projects he's passionate about.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 07:52:07 pm »
Well, it's important to debunk anti-RPDers every now and then,  as we then make our pro-raw/anti-cooking data available to newbies to the diet, every now and then. Also, occasionally, we come across some good anti-raw arguments which need time and research to debunk. If we just ignored all such anti-raw sites, we would lose credibility.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 03:43:09 pm »
The link made between atherosclerosis and excess meat consumption again ignores that all such studies focus on cooked animal foods. In fact there are now countless studies focusing on the harm done by heat-created toxins derived from cooked foods(such as advanced glycation end products) and their direct link to the incidence of atherosclerosis:-

http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/25/10/2157.short

Similiarly, when the levels of heat-created toxins are reduced, the symptoms of atherosclerosis are reduced, indicating that raw-meat diets, but not cooked diets, are great for RELIEVING atherosclerosis, not increasing it at all:-
Many low carb researchers and doctors believe that atherosclerosis is part of a 'normal' aging process on a high fat diet. Gary Taubes reported that even the Masai have a lot of atherosclerosis but no symptoms at all. Have they eaten the meat and fat raw? There are also reports of massive atherosclerosis in Eskimos and Mongols eating their traditional high animal fat diet low in carbs.

Is there any evidence that only cooked animal foods high in fat cause atherosclerosis and raw animal fats don't?

It would be nice to know that raw animal fats don't cause atherosclerosis.

Tyler, do have some convincing papers?

Löwenherz
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 03:52:13 pm by Löwenherz »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 04:45:39 pm »
There are no studies done on raw meats, only  raw dairy, due to hysteria on the part of researchers. Like I said, though, there are dozens of studies showing that atherosclerosis is much reduced if  levels of heat-created toxins in the body are reduced. I don't think atherosclerosis can be completely gotten rid of as a result of a rawpalaeodiet, but much/most of it obviously can be.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 06:55:03 pm »
There are no studies done on raw meats, only  raw dairy, due to hysteria on the part of researchers. Like I said, though, there are dozens of studies showing that atherosclerosis is much reduced if  levels of heat-created toxins in the body are reduced. I don't think atherosclerosis can be completely gotten rid of as a result of a rawpalaeodiet, but much/most of it obviously can be.

And what was the result of the study done on raw dairy?

Löwenherz

Offline TylerDurden

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"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 08:12:39 pm »
   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1714023/
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2806%2900651-8/abstract
Hmm, no information about atherosclerosis.

I would like to find out if raw saturated animals fats can cause atherosclerosis or not. The Masai had lots of atherosclerosis, according to some reports. Have they eaten raw fats or cooked fats? Who knows..

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Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 09:05:18 pm »
Hmm, no information about atherosclerosis.

I would like to find out if raw saturated animals fats can cause atherosclerosis or not. The Masai had lots of atherosclerosis, according to some reports. Have they eaten raw fats or cooked fats? Who knows..

Löwenherz

i can't cite studies but since saturated fats raise hdl and lower triglycerides i'd say it's pretty sure that saturated fats do not cause atherosclerosis. afaik the main causes for atherosclerosis are sugar, especially fructose because it raises triglyceride levels (and by extension raises vldl and ldl), and omega 6 fatty acids (coming mostly from plants or grain fed animals) which promote prostaglandin 2 synthesis which triggers inflammation.

according to the studies i've read about the masai they have some of the lowest cholesterol levels of any tribes on the planet, somewhere in the region of 125mg/dl. i'm no doctor but since they consume mostly animal foods that would indicate to me a very low inflammation level and low to no atherosclerosis risk, at least in terms of fat consumption. they do seem to consume inordinate amounts of calcium from milk, however, so that might be the actual problem that causes the hardening of the arteries.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 11:54:09 pm »
The Masai do indeed have a strong atherosclerosis tendency  given their intake of cooked animal foods and raw dairy:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview2e.shtml

It's not the saturated fat per se which is the problem, it is that cooking saturated fats creates a high amount of heat-created toxins, such as advanced glycation end products, which then cause atherosclerosis and a 100 other health-problems.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2012, 03:49:46 pm »
The Masai do indeed have a strong atherosclerosis tendency  given their intake of cooked animal foods and raw dairy:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview2e.shtml

It's not the saturated fat per se which is the problem, it is that cooking saturated fats creates a high amount of heat-created toxins, such as advanced glycation end products, which then cause atherosclerosis and a 100 other health-problems.
The Masai have eaten their dairy and meats cooked?

In most articles I have read it's reported that they have eaten a raw diet, at least all their dairy.

Löwenherz

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2012, 03:52:20 pm »
The point is that they ate their meats cooked. The raw dairy intake did not change the fact that they got atherosclerosis.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2012, 03:56:57 pm »
The point is that they ate their meats cooked. The raw dairy intake did not change the fact that they got atherosclerosis.

I'm always very skeptical about dairy in all forms. I wouldn't be surprised if also raw dairy causes atherosclerosis.

Inuits and Masai seem to get all atherosclerosis. But don't forget that they never suffered from heart diseases on their traditional diets, according to various reports, despite atherosclerosis. Some authors believe that atherosclerosis could be a "normal" part of aging. (I don't like this thesis.)

Löwenherz

Offline AlphaCog

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Re: What's Wrong With The Primal Diet and Paleo Diet
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2012, 10:01:23 pm »
Milk sugar could be a contributing factor.

Chronic systemic D-galactose exposure induces memory loss, neurodegeneration, and oxidative damage in mice: Protective effects of R-?-lipoic acid
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Abstract

Chronic systemic exposure of mice, rats, and Drosophila to D-galactose causes the acceleration of senescence and has been used as an aging model. The underlying mechanism is yet unclear. To investigate the mechanisms of neurodegeneration in this model, we studied cognitive function, hippocampal neuronal apoptosis and neurogenesis, and peripheral oxidative stress biomarkers, and also the protective effects of the antioxidant R-alpha-lipoic acid. Chronic systemic exposure of D-galactose (100 mg/kg, s.c., 7 weeks) to mice induced a spatial memory deficit, an increase in cell karyopyknosis, apoptosis and caspase-3 protein levels in hippocampal neurons, a decrease in the number of new neurons in the subgranular zone in the dentate gyrus, a reduction of migration of neural progenitor cells, and an increase in death of newly formed neurons in granular cell layer. The D-galactose exposure also induced an increase in peripheral oxidative stress, including an increase in malondialdehyde, a decrease in total anti-oxidative capabilities (T-AOC), total superoxide dismutase (T-SOD), and glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px) activities. A concomitant treatment with lipoic acid ameliorated cognitive dysfunction and neurodegeneration in the hippocampus, and also reduced peripheral oxidative damage by decreasing malondialdehyde and increasing T-AOC and T-SOD, without an effect on GSH-Px. These findings suggest that chronic D-galactose exposure induces neurodegeneration by enhancing caspase-mediated apoptosis and inhibiting neurogenesis and neuron migration, as well as increasing oxidative damage. In addition, D-galactose-induced toxicity in mice is a useful model for studying the mechanisms of neurodegeneration and neuroprotective drugs and agents. © 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

 

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