Can we do without vegetables/greens?

[Joy2012]

It seems many people on this forum do not eat much vegetables/greens. That goes against the popular diet recommendations which do have the support of much scientific research. 

Does animal food have all the nutrients that are in vegetables/greens? What about chlorophyll?

[TylerDurden]

Chlorophyll is useful to plants re photosynthesis, not useful to animals. Animal foods provide all the nutrients a human needs. It has been suggested that plant foods can provide all the nutrients one needs provided that the veg is grown using manure and isn't washed thoroughly afterwards. Not sure if that's true, however.

The main reason why we avoid most raw vegetables is that many raw vegetables often don't taste too good.  Generally speaking, the ones that don't taste too good are also the ones which are highest in levels of antinutrients. Few people care to eat raw broccoli or raw kale, for example. I still eat some raw veg( a little seaweed, radishes every so often, a bunch of carrots once a year, garlic bulbs once a year, that sort of thing).

A few RVAFers do consume raw veggie-juice but many RVAFers complain that, after a time of consuming large amounts of veggie juice, one can start getting nutritional deficiencies. The idea is that juicing not only makes the nutrients in veg more bioavailable but also the antinutrients in veg. At any rate, juiced veg is a really bad idea as sweeteners such as raw cream are added to disguise the foul taste of the juice, making one drink far more than one should.


The reason why studies favour veg consumption is quite simple:- animal foods when heated/cooked produce much higher amounts of heat-created toxins, such as advanced glycation end products etc., whereas cooking plant foods produces fewer such toxins.

[Joy2012]

Chlorophyll is useful to plants re photosynthesis, not useful to animals. Animal foods provide all the nutrients a human needs.

The proponents of green juice often glorify chlorophyll. I read somewhere that once upon a time medical doctors used chlorophyll to treat serious illnsses but later on abandoned the practice because chlorophyll loses its potency after a few hours.

Anyway, if animal foods do provide all the nutrients a human needs, I am content.  Thanks.


 

Few people care to eat raw broccoli or raw kale, for example.

I do not care about raw vegetables in general.  But I like broccoli stems (without the rough peels).

[goodsamaritan]

It seems many people on this forum do not eat much vegetables/greens. That goes against the popular diet recommendations which do have the support of much scientific research. 

Does animal food have all the nutrients that are in vegetables/greens? What about chlorophyll?

Probably a bit of celery and some kamote leaves tops every week.

I need vegetables, just not as much as meat and not as much as fruit.  There are greens that I juice and they give me and others  a great lift if we've been without vegetables for too long.

[Iguana]

I eat broccoli stems too and (like most instinctos) some vegetables every evening,  in general after the meat or eggs or shellfish/fish. Even if tomatoes, cucumbers and red peppers are botanically fruits, they digest well with vegetables and can be considered as such. Pink sweet potatoes are tasty, for example.

Meat, fish and eggs are not always easily available in nature. In our modern world they are generally hard to find in the quality we need and are often rather expensive. I wonder how some of us can lastingly eat almost no plant food while being satisfied, keep a correct nutritional balance and... don't spend all their money on food!

At least in Europe, you would have to be rich to feed exclusively on raw animal food. Even if I had an unlimited bank account, I would be unable to do it because I need fruits, vegetables and nuts as well to be satisfied and remain in good health.

[Chris]

It seems many people on this forum do not eat much vegetables/greens. That goes against the popular diet recommendations which do have the support of much scientific research. 

Does animal food have all the nutrients that are in vegetables/greens? What about chlorophyll?

Joy that is a great  question. IMO, I believe it's true. All necessary nutrients start with algae or grasses. In this RAW MEAT Diet, all of our nutrients are supplied by pastured raised or wild game. Vegetables and fruits were eaten in limited quantities by our ancestors. Animal protein and fat was the main source of energy and vitality (it still is). I've been eating nothing but paster feed non frozen meat for over 5 months and i'm getting stronger and stronger by the DAY! I have no desires for sugar or fruits at all! The more fat I eat, the better! This Raw Foods Animal Diet is the best diet that's out there! If you don't eat RAW Animal Protein, you're missing out. This is Raw Paleo, not  RAW Vegetarian. I don't understand people that land on this site and don't consume raw meats. I think that's WEIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TylerDurden]

Meat, fish and eggs are not always easily available in nature. In our modern world they are generally hard to find in the quality we need and are often rather expensive. I wonder how some of us can lastingly eat almost no plant food while being satisfied, keep a correct nutritional balance and... don't spend all their money on food!

At least in Europe, you would have to be rich to feed exclusively on raw animal food. Even if I had an unlimited bank account, I would be unable to do it because I need fruits, vegetables and nuts as well to be satisfied and remain in good health.

I heavily disagree. I've noticed that my appetite(and therefore food-consumption) goes right up when I eat lots of raw plant foods. My food-bill goes through the roof, too. Indeed, my raw vegan/fruitarian phases, prior to this diet,  led to me spending far more money on food than ever before or after(no doubt, the hunger-pangs were partly the result of cravings for missing nutrients).  Basically, eating raw animal fat meant that my appetite was sated more quickly so I spent a lot less.

Lex Rooker is a case in point. He buys raw grassfed ground meat meant for pet-consumption, and so pays a pittance. Of course, the US has far bigger economies of scale, so US prices for food are way below the equivalent in Europe. Even so, I kept on finding ways round:- for example, I bought raw wild hare carcasses for 13 pounds sterling, which were WAY cheaper than raw, grassfed meats(and far superior in nutrition). I also used to buy tons of raw organ-meats because no one else wanted them, so that they were ultra-cheap. At one stage, I  got away with buying raw, grassfed ox liver for 2 pounds sterling a kilo for many years.

[Iguana]

You're lucky to find such organs and fat, so cheap . Isn't it because Anglo-Saxons never eat organs? Here, it's very difficult to find anything like that, except when we get a road killed badger or when a friend's hunt was successful. Otherwise, we have to order from Orkos where organs are in limited supply, seldom available and very expensive. Moreover, the wild animals we get sometimes have almost no fat: only pigs have a substantial amount of fat. 

[Löwenherz]

Animal foods provide all the nutrients a human needs.

Tyler, on a plant-free diet, how important are organ meats in your view or from your experience?

It has been suggested that plant foods can provide all the nutrients one needs provided that the veg is grown using manure and isn't washed thoroughly afterwards. Not sure if that's true, however.

That's part of a veganoid Wunschkonzert.

I still eat some raw veg( a little seaweed, radishes every so often, a bunch of carrots once a year, garlic bulbs once a year, that sort of thing).

And how much fruit do you eat nowadays?

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

I eat broccoli stems too and (like most instinctos) some vegetables every evening,  in general after the meat or eggs or shellfish/fish. Even if tomatoes, cucumbers and red peppers are botanically fruits, they digest well with vegetables and can be considered as such. Pink sweet potatoes are tasty, for example.

Meat, fish and eggs are not always easily available in nature. In our modern world they are generally hard to find in the quality we need and are often rather expensive. I wonder how some of us can lastingly eat almost no plant food while being satisfied, keep a correct nutritional balance and... don't spend all their money on food!

At least in Europe, you would have to be rich to feed exclusively on raw animal food. Even if I had an unlimited bank account, I would be unable to do it because I need fruits, vegetables and nuts as well to be satisfied and remain in good health.

I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. 

Iguana, have you ever tried a plant-free diet? Or do you just BELIEVE that you need fruits, vegetables and nuts?

When I visit national parks in Europe  I always see tons of animal food but no plant-food except herbs and some berries once in a year.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

You're lucky to find such organs and fat for cheap. Isn't it because Anglo-Saxons never eat organs? Here, it's very difficult to find anything like that, except when we get a road killed badger or when a friend's hunt was successful.

In some parts of France you find more wild boars than in any other European country. Alsace and Lorraine for example. Just contact more hunters. Orkos is extremely overpriced.

What was the name of the American near Toulouse who sells grass-fed Salers beef? Even the leanest bull has lots of fat. Usually it's thrown away...

Löwenherz

[Inger]

I think some wild edibles here and there and lots of seaweeds are all one needs. And wild berries in season for sure, but these are only in fall here. No vegetables needed. Why? They are domesticated anyway. Why would we need them? We fared well hundred of thousand years without. Same with fruit. It is mostly very different from what it once was.
In seafoods and organs are all we need. I actually believe we could live on seafood and algae only. I have not tried it but I am sure it would be great when looking at their nutrient profile. I rarely eat vegetables and greens. Nettles and some other herbs here and there, wild berries, a carrot once in the while from the garden that's it. I feel great!

Seaweeds can be harvested for free if one lives near the coast. Like fishing too, and mussel collecting.. all for free. It really is the best place to live. Near the coast. One would not have to pay anything for food. I think I need to move to such a place one day in the future..lol. I believe that is how the first human lived.. in caves on the coast line. What a beautiful life! I like the idea better too, to collect mussels and fish and not have to kill big land mammals.. still feels not too fun to me.. hmm.

[Löwenherz]

I actually believe we could live on seafood and algae only. I have not tried it but I am sure it would be great when looking at their nutrient profile.

Inger, don't we need saturated fats?

I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...

Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

I'm having the same problem all over Europe these days. On the Continent, they refuse to sell raw organ-meats because it's too much hassle, and they process the wild game they have - I'm hoping to eventually convince them to sell me a whole carcass with organs inside. The UK sellers told me that they usually don't bother as they  have to pay 2 vets(one appointed by the EU and one by the UK government due to excess bureaucracy) so that, since organ-meats are mostly unwanted and can only be sold cheap they just throw the stuff away.

Re LWZ:-  I eat more raw fruit than I used to. Not necessary and it adds to my food-budget. I'm looking to cut back. As regards organ-meats, my current dearth thereof is annoying me a lot. I consider raw organ-meats the best nutritional food out there.

[Iguana]

I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. 

Iguana, have you ever tried a plant-free diet? Or do you just BELIEVE that you need fruits, vegetables and nuts?

When I visit national parks in Europe  I always see tons of animal food but no plant-food except herbs and some berries once in a year.

Löwenherz

Sometimes broccoli stems (the flower has always been bitter to me) are tasty and sometimes not. Every human being has a different history, is different and has varying transient needs.

Even if I had the opportunity to try a plant-free diet for several days (which I never had, even when traveling a few times around the planet) I would not try it, just as would not try an animal food free diet. Both would require the use of conceptual intelligence and of an ideology: animals as well as our far ancestors didn’t care whether a stuff is animal or vegetal, they would not even know where’s the difference. They’ve eaten whatever tastes good enough, without categorizing anything and even most animals considered as pure carnivores eat some plant foods, sometimes in the intestines of their preys.

Categorizing, by delineating artificial limits and borders between things is perhaps one of the biggest error of modern mankind. In nature, most of the things are more or less continuous, with a gradual change.

I avoid beliefs. Perhaps I could survive for some times with animals foods only (what an artificial constraint, again!), but I would not like it and be extremely frustrated. 

Our ancestor came to Europe quite recently, once they had advanced  hunting weapons and about the time they mastered the fire (even if a few seem to have wandered across before using the fire), as already discussed several times. Still there must have been chestnuts, pine nuts, hazelnuts, mushrooms, various edible wild plants and roots which still exist today. There’s always a close interaction between an animal species and its environment. I think that’s called “coevolution” and it means that animals modify their environment by spreading the seeds of the plants they eat. That’s probably why wild fruits such as cempedak, rambutans and durians were found only in the jungles populated by apes such as orangutans who eat those fruits and spread their seeds.

Cheers,
François

[eveheart]

I've read most of the books and blogs mentioned in various places on this forum, and the research in these sources has satisfied me that my predominantly animal diet is a wise choice. Everybody has their own propaganda, but my personal experience favors a diet of animal food.

[Inger]

Inger, don't we need saturated fats?

I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...

Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.

Löwenherz

No not heard of this fish, interesting!
You might be right about we needing some saturated fats extra I do not know really. I do eat some. I should do a test for myself for sure. But I would not eat only mackerels / fatty fish then, but lots of oysters and shellfish! And seaweeds. Now I really want to make such an experiment...!
What happened to the ones trying a mackerel-diet? Does not sound too clever to me lol They forgot the seaweeds and the other food sources from the sea, there are plenty. I do believe we need seasonal carbs too, wild berries and such but nothing cultivated. I eat nuts / Siberian Zederkernels too I love them, and mushrooms.. almost every day.I am not thinking it is a good idea to eat only one sort of food at all.
If one lives in the tropics coconuts are great too! I love them too for sure.. trying to limit them in winter though and eating raw animal fat instead.

[Löwenherz]

No not heard of this fish, intresting!
You might be right about we needing some saturated fats extra I do not know really. I do eat some. I should do a test for myself for sure.

Yes, do it! 
I'm eagerly awaiting your report. It's always a pleasure to learn more about real human nutrition, based on the gifts of nature.
I could never follow such a diet. After some days on seafood only I always get very strong cravings for red meat and the taste of fish becomes repulsive.

But I would not eat only mackerels / fatty fish then, but lots of oysters and shellfish! And seaweeds.

From my experience I would say that such a diet would be too high in protein and too low in fat (as long as it is carb free). And it might be difficult to meet our caloric needs.

What happend to the ones trying a mackerel-diet?

They became infertile, sperm count went down to zero, wound healing problems and other problems, can't remember exactly.

I am not thinking it is a good idea to eat only one sort of food at all.

I agree..
I would like to eat much more wild white meats, white fowl like pheasant etc., but it's becoming more and more rare, unfortunately.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

Even if I had the opportunity to try a plant-free diet for several days (which I never had, even when traveling a few times around the planet) I would not try it, just as would not try an animal food free diet.

Sorry Iguana, that means that you have no personal experience, that you have never felt  the (amazing) effects of a keto adaptation process und that all your thoughts and opinions about plant-free diets are pure speculation based on your beliefs and nothing else.

Both would require the use of conceptual intelligence and of an ideology:

Not at all. Such choices could be based on personal experience. For example: Health problems from fructose and digestive trouble from harsh plant fiber.

animals as well as our far ancestors didn’t care whether a stuff is animal or vegetal, they would not even know where’s the difference.

Why do "instinctos" always believe that our ancestors have been intelligent like a piece of rock?

Löwenherz

[Alive]

I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. 

I love to eat a whole raw broccoli as one meal, with my bare hands - delicious

[Iguana]

Sorry Iguana, that means that you have no personal experience, that you have never felt  the (amazing) effects of a keto adaptation process und that all your thoughts and opinions about plant-free diets are pure speculation based on your beliefs and nothing else.

It’s not based on any belief at all, my friend, it’s based on the fact that there’s no mammal on Earth who is able to totally exclude the ingestion of  plants, even more so in reference to an trendy obscure fad about ‘keto adaptation’. It would require the knowledge of the exact limit between plants and animals, something I’m uncertain myself.

I’ve no personal interest in experimenting neither a ridiculous one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example), nor a seafood-only-diet, nor even an animal-only-diet. You’re free to experiment anything yourself, but please let me live my life in the way I like while benefiting of the sensible experiences of the successful ones I know, without having to jeopardize my own health once again.

For me the question of nutrition is pretty much solved and I’ve got other interests in life.

Not at all. Such choices could be based on personal experience. For example: Health problems from fructose and digestive trouble from harsh plant fiber.

Of course, memory, experience and training also influence our alimentary choices. But in your example, such a digestive trouble could be due to a personal abnormal condition.   

Why do "instinctos" always believe that our ancestors have been intelligent like a piece of rock?

?? Why would “Instinctos” believe that? On the opposite, I think most hominids were as clever as we are and I have an immense respect for animals such as apes, monkeys, foxes, cats, whales and dolphins. They are probably much more clever than most people can imagine. Aren’t you confusing intelligence and knowledge?

Cheers
François

[Löwenherz]

It’s not based on any belief at all, my friend, it’s based on the fact that there’s no mammal on Earth who is able to totally exclude the ingestion of  plants, even more so in reference to an trendy obscure fad about ‘keto adaptation’.

Iguana,

you have absolutely no experience with ketogenic diets based on animal foods. Nevertheless you categorically condemn such diets. You mentioned here and there that you believe that Lex Rooker's dietary approach is silly or absurd.

And again, your reluctant attitude is solely based on your beliefs, nothing else my friend. You don't have any valid argument. You believe that we need plant foods because most animals eat plant foods? Human beings are no apes or wolves. Or do you believe such things because your guru believes it?

Personally, I don't know for sure if it is wise to avoid all plant foods. Tyler mentioned that there are no nutrients in plants that cannot be found in animals. And he is right. I studied several nutrient databases in detail. If you eat a variety of organ meats from land mammals + seafood you definetely get ALL known nutrients in sufficient amounts, including folates. Furthermore it's a proven fact that plant fiber is not necessary for a healthy human gi tract. In many cases harsh plant fiber is even harmful. That's the reason why "normal" people cook and raw foodists most often juice such foods.

The significant therapeutic effects of ketogenic diets are well documentated, especially in the cases of cancer, epileptic children and infertility. Many detailed reports are available at several University Hospitals. It's very stupid if you believe that ketogenic diets are just a "trendy obscure fad". If you believe that you need fruits and nuts, it's fine. But don't ignore the facts. Scientific facts and even reports in this forum. Lex, Inger and many others here seem to do very well on ketogenic diets that are very low in plant foods. On the other side a huge number of raw foodists got massive health problems from high fruit sugar consumption.

Please reread my post. I think that a mackerel diet or similar mono diets are everything else than a good idea.

Löwenherz

[Wolf]

Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.

Löwenherz

Oh man, I just heard about that fish in my American Indian history class, I think the teacher said that they were so high in fat that they were mostly used as candles because they burned so easily.. hearing that, since I always crave fat in my diet, I immediately googled the fish since I had my laptop with me in class.  Wikipedia says the fish is considered an endangered species, and that disappointed me because now there's no way I'd get to try eating them.   

"On November 2008, the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) received a petition from the Cowlitz Tribe to list a distinct population segment (DPS) of eulachon from Washington, Oregon, and California, as an endangered or threatened species under the Endangered Species Act.[1] (ESA). NMFS found that this petition presented enough information to warrant conducting a status review of the species. Based on the status review NMFS proposed listing this species as threatened on March 13, 2009.[2] On March 16, 2010, NOAA announced that the aforementioned population of eulachon will be listed as threatened under the ESA, effective on May 17, 2010 (See: the Federal Register notice published on May 18, 2010, at 74 FR 3178).[3]"  -from wikipedia

[Löwenherz]

Oh man, I just heard about that fish in my American Indian history class, I think the teacher said that they were so high in fat that they were mostly used as candles because they burned so easily.. hearing that, since I always crave fat in my diet, I immediately googled the fish since I had my laptop with me in class.  Wikipedia says the fish is considered an endangered species, and that disappointed me because now there's no way I'd get to try eating them.   

Oh yeah, sounds really like a "super-food". Obviously, many, too many people were under this impression.

Be glad to live in the United States. Bison-fat is the non-plus-ultra, isn't it?

Löwenherz

[Wolf]

Furthermore it's a proven fact that plant fiber is not necessary for a healthy human gi tract. In many cases harsh plant fiber is even harmful.

Löwenherz

Oh hey, do you happen to have any links to any information about fiber being unnecessary or harmful?  I keep trying to tell people how fiber is unneeded, unnecessary, and might even be harmful, but I don't have any sort of scientific evidence to back myself up.. the only thing I've seen about it is this guy: What Is So Menacing About Fiber?  and he just -looks- like a quack and super fake, even I'm skeptical about what he has to say just based on how he looks and talks, even though I have the experience of me eating a very low fiber diet and yet having no problems with digestion and excretion.

Also, I've had my mom argue to me that fiber is actually good for people who eat a lot of junk (SAD diet) because it pushes all that junk they eat out of them, whereas I don't need fiber because I eat such a healthy diet that I don't need to push any junk out.. and I didn't have much of an argument against that.  My grandma who tries to eat healthy also said I need fiber to push the animal fat I eat out of my intestines, but I didn't have any sort of argument against that except for "No I don't!" which isn't going to convince anyone.  I need more scientific and convincing evidence to back me up on this..

Oh yeah, sounds really like a "super-food". Obviously, many, too many people were under this impression.

Be glad to live in the United States. Bison-fat is the non-plus-ultra, isn't it?

Löwenherz

what is a non-plus-ultra?

I've been eating only bison meat lately because grass-fed beef is nearly impossible to find near me, and the bison is easier to find and reliably get, but I'm pretty sure all the bison I eat is grain-fed because none of them say anywhere that they are grass-fed, but the meat is also very very lean.. I haven't been able to find any pure bison fat either.  I think I just live in a bad area.     I also lost my job a while ago, so I can't afford to like, buy online from slankers or anything because of the high shipping cost.. I might also have to stop with my raw dairy, it's so expensive even though it's the only thing that helps my cravings for fat that isn't commercial in-organic grain-fed fat.. I really can't find any good sources of grass-fed fat other than super expensive raw dairy!