Can we do without vegetables/greens?

[Löwenherz]

Oh hey, do you happen to have any links to any information about fiber being unnecessary or harmful?

Wolf, a good read is the book from Wolfgang Lutz about gi tract health. But I don't know if it's available in english. Here is an interesting website about ketogenic diets and fiber:

http://www.biblelife.org/bowel.htm

Why do people usually cook hard plant foods? To reduce the fiber. Eating lots of RAW vegetables is a very new fad.

Non-plus-ultra? The best of the best!

Here is a cheap and good source for 100% grass-fed beef fat (better than suet!):

http://whiteoakpastures.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=117&zenid=16e23fc8ca373274724a1f6d2852cc57

3.89 USD for 2.5 lbs.

I bought several times from them. The quality is good. The farm is located in GA. Shipping should be no problem.

If you ask me, NEVER eat grain-fed meat!

Löwenherz

[LePatron7]

I love white oaks pastures.

I visited their farm last christmas. Their ground beef was the first meet I ever ate raw.

I get pretty good suet (organic, grass fed) from a farm that ships to miami every other week.

But I'm tempted to try theirs. Its cheaper too (by 50 cents/lb)

[Wolf]

Oh yeah, the other problem with shipping is that I live in southern california where it's always hot all the time, and during summer, anything left on the doorstep of my house for more than like 5 minutes isn't gonna be raw anymore, lol.

It's starting to cool down finally though, if the shipping cost isn't too high I might order some fat and even meat from them, since it's less likely  it'll get cooked before reaching me.  Is their stuff packaged in plastic though?  that's another problem, especially with heat, plastic throws my appetite off raw meats and stuff especially if they get warmed/heated in plastic.

[Iguana]

Iguana,

you have absolutely no experience with ketogenic diets based on animal foods. Nevertheless you categorically condemn such diets. You mentioned here and there that you believe that Lex Rooker's dietary approach is silly or absurd. And again, your reluctant attitude is solely based on your beliefs, nothing else my friend. You don't have any valid argument. You believe that we need plant foods because most animals eat plant foods? Human beings are no apes or wolves.

Oh, God! I don’t remember I ever mentioned anything publicly about Lex's approach! I never pretended neither that I have any experience about ketogenic diets: on the contrary I don’t care about it as I don’t care for any specific ideological dietary system… and I don’t condemn it. Try it if you want, I told you: you’re free to experiment whatever you want.

I don’t believe that we absolutely need plant foods and I gladly admit that it’s perhaps possible that we can live without it. I don’t know and, once again, I don’t care! I only said I would be extremely frustrated if I had to survive exclusively on animal foods.

Many thanks for your kind question below. Do you really need an answer ?

Or do you believe such things because your guru believes it?

Personally, I don't know for sure if it is wise to avoid all plant foods. Tyler mentioned that there are no nutrients in plants that cannot be found in animals. And he is right. I studied several nutrient databases in detail. If you eat a variety of organ meats from land mammals + seafood you definetely get ALL known nutrients in sufficient amounts, including folates. Furthermore it's a proven fact that plant fiber is not necessary for a healthy human gi tract. In many cases harsh plant fiber is even harmful. That's the reason why "normal" people cook and raw foodists most often juice such foods.

You might be right, especially when taking into account your first sentence of the  above quote!

The significant therapeutic effects of ketogenic diets are well documentated, especially in the cases of cancer, epileptic children and infertility. Many detailed reports are available at several University Hospitals. It's very stupid if you believe that ketogenic diets are just a "trendy obscure fad". If you believe that you need fruits and nuts, it's fine. But don't ignore the facts. Scientific facts and even reports in this forum. Lex, Inger and many others here seem to do very well on ketogenic diets that are very low in plant foods. On the other side a huge number of raw foodists got massive health problems from high fruit sugar consumption.

Ok, I’m a stupid ignoramus, no problem. But, BTW… “very low on plant foods” is a little bit different than without the slightest amount of plant food at all. 

Please reread my post. I think that a mackerel diet or similar mono diets are everything else than a good idea.

Did I say the contrary?

Good night,
F

[goodsamaritan]

I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. 

We have varying tastes and requirements.
And the vegetable variety may be different everywhere.
Your broccoli may suck, but some broccoli sources may be amazing.

I know when I buy from various sources, my top organic farmer usually comes out with the tastiest raw vegetables vs other sources.  I gladly eat his vegetables raw because... they just taste good.

I will go and taste his raw broccoli stems and get back to you guys here.

One thing our forum lacks is a lot of touch, feel, see, hear and taste and rubbing elbow to elbow so we can learn better from one another.  But yeah, discussions like this are very educational.

[Iguana]

Your broccoli may suck, but some broccoli sources may be amazing.

One thing our forum lacks is a lot of touch, feel, see, hear and taste and rubbing elbow to elbow so we can learn better from one another.  But yeah, discussions like this are very educational.

Very true  ! 
And every broccoli is unique, different from all the other broccolis ever grown on planet Earth 

[Joy2012]

Isn't an all-animal-foods diet (or mostly-animal-foods diet) too acid (I am talking about pH balance)?

[Joy2012]

I will go and taste his raw broccoli stems and get back to you guys here.

Be sure to peel off the outer rough parts of the stems.  The slender stems closest to the flowering part are the most sweet and tender...I am fighting for the reputation of broccoli stems.

[TylerDurden]

Isn't an all-animal-foods diet (or mostly-animal-foods diet) too acid (I am talking about pH balance)?

The acid/alkali theory is nonsense:-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

 And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.

[eveheart]

Isn't an all-animal-foods diet (or mostly-animal-foods diet) too acid (I am talking about pH balance)?

Joy, I am also familiar with all the "healthy eating" advice, such as acid/alkaline balance, eat adequate fiber, eat low-fat, limit meat, etc. ad nauseam. I followed that advice for decades and ended up with such aches in my body that I felt like I'd rather die than live.

After 1 1/2 years on RPD, using an instinctotherapie approach that has led me to very-low-carb and high fat, I have learned that all the "healthy eating" advice is medical and political hogwash. The research and actual results that are circulating around the mainstream are not valid findings. I wish I were the kind of writer that could spell out all the scientific details that I have read, but I don't have the patience to write a good, persuasive post. Read up for yourself and you will learn what I have learned.

The comments above in this thread seems to miss the point of how to eat correctly. This is not a war between various raw-paleo styles of eating. Eat what is right for you by distancing yourself from processed foods and processed nutritional dogma. This will let your instincts lead you to the right answers for you. You don't have to learn the right way to eat from someone else and then follow that way with disregard for your results.

There is a wealth of information here for you to begin your own learning.

[Dorothy]

You asked such a specific question Joy - if eating nothing but meat will give us all the nutrients we need.

I guess I don't look at food that way, because over the years I've seen "experts" changing what they think I "need" and discovering/creating more and more nutrients until I just gave up trying to keep up with them. I'm pretty certain that we are still at the beginning.

One might conclude that eating nothing but animals foods must have all the nutrients needed to survive since Lowen and Rex certainly haven't dropped dead from malnutrition Just like with any diet there just hasn't been and won't be any good long-term studies because such studies won't make anyone any money. There are studies with diseases like cancer and epilepsy, but none with already healthy people determining the effect on general health. We don't know what will happen long-term and we most certainly don't know if such a diet will make a general population thrive. Some people seem to have gotten ill eating only meat and others have healed themselves. To me, it would be an experiment - like eating all fruit or all vegetables or all sprouts or all algae. I find it fascinating to hear what people have to say about their experiences doing such diets. I watch closely to read not only what they say about how it makes them feel, but I watch how they write and interact in general with others and watch if there are changes. It's how I determined that I would not want to try a fruitarian diet. I appreciate others doing that experiment for me.

I guess my question is why do you ask? Is there a reason why you are thinking you might want to constrict your choices? Are you trying to heal or achieve something in particular?

[Iguana]

.After 1 1/2 years on RPD, using an instinctotherapie approach that has led me to very-low-carb and high fat, I have learned that all the "healthy eating" advice is medical and political hogwash. The research and actual results that are circulating around the mainstream are not valid findings.
(…)
Eat what is right for you by distancing yourself from processed foods and processed nutritional dogma. This will let your instincts lead you to the right answers for you. You don't have to learn the right way to eat from someone else and then follow that way with disregard for your results.

Excellent, thanks! You plainly demonstrate that instinctotherapy doesn’t necessarily lead everyone to eat too much fruit and too little meat as some here persistently and wrongly pretend. 

Very good post from Dorothy, too!

And BTW, I had forgotten to say that I've been unable to eat the stems of the last few broccolis I bought as they tasted bitter, although produced by an "organic" farmer.  My chicken and ducks apparently liked those broccolis anyway! 

[Joy2012]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread by sharing your knowledge and experience, with a little fun bickering.

Dorothy, I ask this question because I do not like to eat raw vegetables in general--except for broccoli stems     and a couple of other items. I want to know if I could stop worrying about eating my share of raw vegetables.  (BTW, I love cooked vegetables. But I do not eat them anymore except when invited to friends' home-made meals.)

[Dorothy]

Dorothy, I ask this question because I do not like to eat raw vegetables in general--except for broccoli stems     and a couple of other items. I want to know if I could stop worrying about eating my share of raw vegetables.  (BTW, I love cooked vegetables. But I do not eat them anymore except when invited to friends' home-made meals.)

In that case Joy, I personally wouldn't try to force myself to eat anything if my body doesn't like it or isn't craving it just because someone, anyone, says it's good for me - unless doing so makes you feel really great pretty quickly or you are having some kind of illness pop up as a result of what is generally accepted to be a deficiency in a certain nutrient. If you get rickets for example.

The people that eat all meat here seem to feel really good from it and enjoy it and I feel really good from salads - unlike so many here - and I really love to eat salads and nibble from my garden.

Forcing yourself to eat vegetables seems counter-productive to me - especially raw. Some people just don't have the digestive fire to do that and feel well. Perhaps that's why you like cooked vegetables - they might be easier for you to digest. I say - trust your body. Eat what you want and what makes you feel good! Forget the experts and their vitamins. If they really knew what they were talking about we'd all be drinking Tang and feeling wonderful.    

[Joy2012]

I feel really good from salads - unlike so many here - and I really love to eat salads and nibble from my garden.

Dorothy, do you like salads or do you like raw vegetables without any sauce/oil?  The instincto people on this forum seem to advocate eating raw vegetables (and raw animal foods) without any sauce. That is when I find most vegetables unappetizing, except for broc. stems, lettuce hearts, baby colorful peppers, and cherry tomatoes.  If we are talking about salads--vegetables with my favorite home-made sauces, that is quite another matter. 

To be fair, I also cut down drastically on my animal foods consumption if I do not add any sauces.  What is left is fruit...lots of fruit!   Maybe this is just a transition period....

[Dorothy]

I do like to go out to the garden and "graze", but I also love to sit down at the table to a meal with sauce! Sauces and dressings to me just make a good thing even better.

I know that the sauces might interfere with the body knowing how much of something to eat or when to stop - but for me the spices and sauces add so much enjoyment that I use them anyway. I'm not hard core - not by a long shot. I bet Iguana would tell you to eat only what tastes good and feels right without the sauce. It makes sense. I guess I'm just a heathen.

[Löwenherz]

Ok, I’m a stupid ignoramus, no problem.

Iguana, sorry for my slightly harsh comment. But I get allergic reactions when I read ignorant words like "trendy obscure fad about keto adaptation", "a ridiculous one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example)" (which I never recommended) or instincto drivel like "categorizing by delineating artificial limits".

I have seen too many raw foodists in the last 13 years who have seriously damaged their physical and mental health by eating too much fruit sugar. Sugar nearly always tastes good to nearly everyone. Do we need sugar? No. For me, it's extremely artificial and absolutely not recommendable to eat imported overbred high sugar fruits like mangoes and durians in our north European climate zones, especially during winter times.

But I don't want to discuss the instincto ideas and practices here again. As you know I view it as completely absurd.

The question here was: Do we need plant foods to be healthy? I think another question could be even more interesting:

Ketogenic or not ketogenic?

I have seen tremendous healing effects during strict ketogenic diets based on animal foods, like many others. Even small amounts of fruit sugar terminated this healing state abruptly...

Many greetings to Southern France

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.

Raw meats have actually an alkaline effect on our bodies, as one german physician, Dr. med. Klaus Hoffmann found out. He recommended his patients with rheumatic diseases to eat raw meat.

Unfortunately most doctors are still unable to think beyond their more or less useless medical eduaction..

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

One thing our forum lacks is a lot of touch, feel, see, hear and taste and rubbing elbow to elbow so we can learn better from one another.  But yeah, discussions like this are very educational.

For most people, food is always a highly emotional topic . Food seems to touch our deep interior.

You are right, a personal conversation is always much better than just words on a computer display.

We should think about a raw paleo meeting again.

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

Well, my own ketogenic diet experiment ultimately was a disaster. And some others here also found it to be a problem.

Any info on this Dr Klaus Hoffmann? A website or whatever? Is he a raw-meat guru like Aajonus or more like Dr Mercola? I see that he recommends Africans to eat raw fruits as they are supposedly more adapted to them, but recommends Europeans not to.

[Löwenherz]

Well, my own ketogenic diet experiment ultimately was a disaster. And some others here also found it to be a problem.

Any info on this Dr Klaus Hoffmann? A website or whatever? Is he a raw-meat guru like Aajonus or more like Dr Mercola? I see that he recommends Africans to eat raw fruits as they are supposedly more adapted to them, but recommends Europeans not to.

Ketogenic does not necessarily mean Zero Carb or animal food only..

My impression was and is that your diet is ketogenic according to the low amounts of fruits you mention in your reports. It all depends on the sugar and fat intake. High fat, very low sugar lets the liver make ketones.

BTW: My own zero carb zero plant food dietary experiments were not fully satisfying in the long-run despite some tremendous healing effects. I always got very irritable and nervous after some days or weeks. But recently I identified missing nutrients as a causative factor in my case. Folates seem to be very important. As long as I eat raw liver on a frequent basis (small amounts are sufficient) or drink dark green juices as a suboptimal source, my zero carb Lex Rooker style dietary experiments are working very well with strong benefits. Due to my taste preferences I always tend to eat too much muscle meat and not enough sea foods and organ meats. I could eat New York strip steaks every day for ever.

I have read a book from Dr Klaus Hoffmann many years ago, I can't remember the title. As fas as I know he has no website. I will try to contact him personally next week. Yesterday I read somewhere that he retired recently, unfortunately. As far as I know he never investigated the effects of ketogenic diets. I just mentionend him regarding raw meat eating.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

Is he a raw-meat guru like Aajonus or more like Dr Mercola?

Not at all! He seems to be a "normal" human being,  a motivated physician in private practice. We definitely need more such courageous people!

Löwenherz

[Iguana]

Iguana, sorry for my slightly harsh comment. But I get allergic reactions when I read ignorant words like "trendy obscure fad about keto adaptation", "a ridiculous one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example)" (which I never recommended) or instincto drivel like "categorizing by delineating artificial limits".

That’s ok ! Joy 2012 had some fun with it and  we should have as well…

Probably « keto adaptation » is obscure for me because as a pre-fire hominid, I have absolutely no clue about what it is - and I don’t care.

We agree that a one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example) is ridiculous and I didn’t mean nor even think at all that you assume the opposite. I supposed that you, of course, agree it is ridiculous !

 "Categorizing by delineating artificial limits" is a sentence personally self-devised by your Iguana and has nothing to do with the instincto theory (or drivel if you prefer, but I find it really strange that two persons apparently sane can diverge to the point that one finds something logical while the other finds it’s a drivel). 

Sugar nearly always tastes good to nearly everyone. Do we need sugar? No. For me, it's extremely artificial and absolutely not recommendable to eat imported overbred high sugar fruits like mangoes and durians in our north European climate zones, especially during winter times.

Oh no ! Sugary foods don’t always taste good: the sweeter they are the more mouth burning is the “stop” ! We could move to warmer places and eat durians and mangoes along with sea turtles eggs and fresh coconuts (aren’t you a big fun of coconuts, even in our north European climate zones ?) By walking not even in straight line at 4 km/h  during 5 h/day, it would take less then a year to walk 5000 km down south (depending where we start from and as long as we wouldn't have to swim across a sea, of course). Early men where nomads and so should we be.

Perhaps we wouldn’t need sweet foods in case we have enough other foods (and enough love !). I don’t know. Is there anyone having successfully experimented a “ketogenic diet” over several decades  ? Have newborns been grownup into very healthy adults with a strict 100% ketogenic diet ? BTW, the answer to both questions is YES for the “instincto drivel”. 

Let’s have fun bickering gently!
François

[TylerDurden]

Well, the Inuit have.

[cherimoya_kid]

I think a lot of the problems people have with plant foods comes from eating low-Brix, low-nutrition fruits/veggies.

I certainly experience far better reactions to high-Brix fruit versus low-Brix.

I just tossed out about 8 oranges, because they were all 8 or 9 Brix.

Not even fit to feed to animals.