Can we do without vegetables/greens?

[Iguana]

Oh, you are a really sharp observer! I hadn’t noticed the shadow of the clothesline trough his face! The amateur who took the picture is myself… BTW I read how you observed AV was lying when he told his story of the coyotes feeding him. I had just the same feeling when reading that story.

So, the first time I saw GCB was in 1973 when he and his wife Nicole explained for the first time publicly their findings during a lecture in Lausanne. But I was young at the time and even if what was said seemed logic (though somewhat eccentric) I wasn’t ready to eat all raw. Then, in 1987 I followed some of his seminars when I decided to try the “instincto way" after reading his book. His friends Jean-Daniel and wife (living 20 km only from my place at the time) became friends of mine and through them, GCB and I knew more about each other and we became friends as well. As one of the first pioneers, JD told me a lot about how the whole thing was developed at the beginning with his close involvement.   

No, GCB doesn’t have any "massive mental problems" and I hope I don’t… but Löwenherz is right to some extent: I know a few "full or half instinctos” who always had such problems (even when on cooked diet) and aren’t cured by the diet!  I didn't like either the atmosphere at Montramé, especially after Nicole and GCB were no longer there. To get back to him, he’s a man with a strong personality, an idealist little concerned neither by practicalities in life nor by money.   

[Joy2012]

Iguana, good that we have a member here who has first-hand knowledge of GCB.

What is GCB's consumption of fat versus carbo? A good number of members here promote eating much fat. I do not find I have a big appetite for fat. In fact, since I try to go instincto (i.e., no mixing of food items and no spices), I have close to zero appetite for raw unadulterated animal fat. So I am interested in knowing GCB's idea (and your idea) on fat consumption versus carbo.

[Löwenherz]

Fair enough. Can I ask at least approximately how many people or percentage of the people doing instincto that you met had mental problems and of what kind? I take such claims and observations seriously as it was what I noticed about the low fat vegans in general that I had contact with that made me stop and think deeply on that approach - and then even to re-think veganism itself even though it did not seem to have the same negative effects on me. I like hearing of other people's general impressions and central nervous system health is the prime reason I have turned towards raw paleo.

Nearly all of them showed signs of heavy mood disorders. For example: Many felt euphoric for a short time after they ate a huge pile of (overbred) Thai durian. They called it "himmlische Phase" (a translation could be "divine pleasure"). Their guru provided them with many such curious phrases. Half a day later these people were not seldom depressed and introverted. Beside teeth problems, digestive troubles, especially with fats, were common. Aajonus Vonderplanitz has written about this problem in his two books. He observed that high amounts of fruit sugar impairs our digestion of proteins and fats. Nearly all "instinctos" I have seen were very emaciated. They felt a deep disharmony in their life and usually thought that we are actually fruit eating apes from the tropics. The "instinctos" I met in Sri Lanka all ate huge amounts of sugary fruits and got massive health problems like staph infections.

A major topic in the"instincto" movement were the sexual teaching and practice (sex with children) of their guru and some of his followers. Many were skeptical but didn't want to talk about it.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

LWZ is talking nonsense. "Rohkost" is often routinely confused with "Instinkto", both online and offline.

Tyler, I don't know where you live and where you got such false impressions. In Germany, in most cases "Rohkost" stands for vegan raw foodism. In the last two decades the scene was heavily influenced by two authors, Helmut Wandmaker and Franz Konz, both vegan. Beside them, in the years 1998 - 2004 the books of Norman Walker were found in the shelves of every german bookstore. Organisations like BFG e.V.  (the biggest one) are strongly and hysterically against the consumption of any animal food.

*What  truly amazed me was one  recent photo Iguana showed of GCB, in which GCB noticeably looked much younger than Aajonus despite being much older than him, and having had to, unfairly,  suffer a prison-sentence a while back wherein, presumably, he was forced to eat cooked rubbish.

What do you mean with "unfairly"?

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

I like hearing of other people's general impressions and central nervous system health is the prime reason I have turned towards raw paleo.

Dorothy, if you are interested in central nervous system health the books and articles about ketogenic diets from neurofeedback specialist Nora Gedgaudas could be an very interesting read for you.

"Primal Body, Primal Mind: Beyond the Paleo Diet for Total Health and a Longer Life":

http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Body-Mind-Beyond-Health/dp/1594774137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351929676&sr=8-1&keywords=gedgaudas

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

Look, I have previously trawled German forums, instinkto or otherwise, where the terms "instinkto" and "rohkost" were interchangeably used. "Rohkost" doesn't even have to be 100% raw vegan, as a minority  include raw eggs and raw dairy within that term.

As for "unfairly", I do not view being deprived of sunlight and good food as being part of a prison-sentence. Being locked up is one thing, but other stuff designed to kill you off at an earlier age is not acceptable.

[Löwenherz]

"Rohkost" doesn't even have to be 100% raw vegan, as a minority  include raw eggs and raw dairy within that term.

That's true, of course. I said that "Rohkost" is vegan in MOST cases. The whole vegan scene thrives on newcomers.. A very unreliable business model. tsss.

As for "unfairly", I do not view being deprived of sunlight and good food as being part of a prison-sentence. Being locked up is one thing, but other stuff designed to kill you off at an earlier age is not acceptable.

OK.

Löwenherz

[Alive]

@Tyler - so you don't believe this woman who says Jimmy had his hand up her dress on live TV?

Jimmy Savile molests girl live on Top Of The Pops 1976

Back on topic - every known human tribe that has access to vegetables/greens consumes them, it is only when the environment deprives people of plant foods that they eat exclusively animal foods (such as in ice covered regions). So why would you want to do without vegetables/greens?

[Wai Kai Zen]

Hi all!
This is a very interesting discussion and Id like to share my view on this.

Ive tried eating all meat diets, Ive eaten high fruit, Ive eaten a mix etc etc etc.
While trying all this Ive been very observing about my emotions and the link between digestion.
For me there seems to be a very clear link between the two.

I feel like raw egg yolk raises my stomach acid which helps with cleaning out bad fats and other toxins.
But to get this out of the stomach/colon I felt that it needed some pressure (to raise body temperature) which had the effect of getting some dhiarrea and farting (in my opinion cleaning effects). Eating lots of meat gave me this pressure and  in that way it speed up the cleaning process. I also felt that eating lots of meat is hard to digest and after a few days made me feel depressed. Than I added fibre from fruits (like bananas) and the meat would come out and I would feel better.

Repeating this process cleans out the body which results in very low body fat percentage and being vascular.
The leaner I get I notice that just eating raw egg yolks is very good on its own and it feels like its the best thing to just go on just these yolks. I think this is because theres no more bad fats blocking my stomach and intestines and this way the yolk can flow.

So, my believe is that a pure cholesterol diet from eggs (whether is chicken or fish or whatever) is perfect for us. But first we need to have a clean digestive system.
When thinking about how we must have gotten food thousands of years ago it makes sense since its easier to eat an egg than to hunt down an animal and cut it open etc.

Id like to point out that I do not imply to have the truth, but this is just my "weird" experience and view.

WK.

[Dorothy]

Dorothy, if you are interested in central nervous system health the books and articles about ketogenic diets from neurofeedback specialist Nora Gedgaudas could be an very interesting read for you.

"Primal Body, Primal Mind: Beyond the Paleo Diet for Total Health and a Longer Life":

http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Body-Mind-Beyond-Health/dp/1594774137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351929676&sr=8-1&keywords=gedgaudas

Löwenherz

I'll check it out. Thanks!

[Iguana]

 Posts related to "metasexuality" have been moved here.
 

[Projectile Vomit]

Dorothy, if you are interested in central nervous system health the books and articles about ketogenic diets from neurofeedback specialist Nora Gedgaudas could be an very interesting read for you...

I second this recommendation. When someone asks for a book recommendation focused on diet, this is the book I recommend to them. More balanced than typical Paleo Diet books from Loren Cordain, less commercialized than Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, and more current than Nourishing Traditions. We're organizing a health conference in my area in June of 2013, and Nora Gedgaudas accepted our invitation and will be speaking. Sally Fallon will be here too, as will a couple other high-profile speakers.

[Dorothy]

I second this recommendation. When someone asks for a book recommendation focused on diet, this is the book I recommend to them. More balanced than typical Paleo Diet books from Loren Cordain, less commercialized than Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, and more current than Nourishing Traditions. We're organizing a health conference in my area in June of 2013, and Nora Gedgaudas accepted our invitation and will be speaking. Sally Fallon will be here too, as will a couple other high-profile speakers.

Eric, where are you in the US just in case someone catches this and wants to attend?

Thanks for the book review! I read over the contents and I'm betting that most of it is old hat to me so I put a hold on a copy at my library. There are a couple of chapters, like the one on the nervous system that could hold something of interest. I was also thinking that it might be quite a good introductory book to suggest to others - but I was wondering how she approached raw versus cooked? Is it a cooked paleo kind of book or a raw paleo kind of book?

I got Nourishing Traditions out the library and copied the few things that related to raw. Perhaps worth the entire book for those few recipes and ideas but a photocopy of a few pages was really I needed.

I love libraries!

 

[Projectile Vomit]

I live in Burlington, VT and the workshop I'm helping to plan will be held in and around this city.

Nora Gedgaudas' book isn't strictly cooked or raw, but she puts in more than a few plugs for eating foods, including animal foods, raw.

[Bio-shell Avatar]

i agree with löwenherz about the fruit issue. during my two years on a mostly raw vegan/vegetarian diet i've eaten about 6-8 servings of fruit per day which is not much more than what many consider "healthy" and i'm sure it would have ruined my health if i hadn't switched to (raw) paleo earlier this year.

one thing i noticed was that i got a lot of moles but at the time had no idea they were a result of the sugar from fruits (the fructose content, most likely) - AGEs that are visible and which i hope will eventually fade or perhaps disappear altogether again.

during summer i've still eaten fruit, a serving of berries from my garden each day, but at the moment i don't consume any fruits, or anything sweet for that matter, and i don't feel that i need it.

nevertheless it seems that a limited amount of raw or fermented veggies is good for me. i eat about 300-400g sauerkraut every day and the occasional salad with lettuce, cucumber, 1-2 carrots, onion, feta cheese, flax oil and spices. no tomatoes or other nightshade plants, though, because of the lectins and other antinutrients.

i feel good on this diet but i don't know if i'm ever in ketosis. i don't really consume any carbs except the small amount that's left in the aforementioned veggies and perhaps in kefir but i'm probably eating too much protein for my own good (about 100-120g/day) and afaik 58% of all protein is metabolized into glucose, always, which would disrupt ketosis as surely as carbs, just a little later.

i have a request. could those of you who have found their ideal diet please describe it briefly and include their blood type? i'm type A and it's said that those with bloodtype A do best on a vegetarian diet but shouldn't consume dairy. well, that's almost vegan and that didn't work for me. i'm concerned about milk/kefir and would like to know if there are others with type A who do well with dairy in their diet or not at all. supposedly there are certain proteins in milk that are similar to bloodtype B and cause blood clotting in type A. don't know if there's any truth in this but i'm curious.

@löwenherz - do you know any sources in germany where i can buy grass-fed organ meats and glands? apart from liver i've had no luck so far.

[LePatron7]

i don't really consume any carbs except the small amount that's left in the aforementioned veggies and perhaps in kefir but i'm probably eating too much protein for my own good (about 100-120g/day) and afaik 58% of all protein is metabolized into glucose, always, which would disrupt ketosis as surely as carbs, just a little later.

Are you saying you eat 100-120 grams of protein per day? That's like 4-5 oz of protein per day.

Does anyone else feel that's a very small amount of protein per day?

[aLptHW4k4y]

Are you saying you eat 100-120 grams of protein per day? That's like 4-5 oz of protein per day.

Does anyone else feel that's a very small amount of protein per day?

No, that sounds like just right, and maybe a bit much if you're not so active.

[LePatron7]

No, that sounds like just right, and maybe a bit much if you're not so active.

Is that specifically if you're LC, VLC, or ZC?

I eat 8-12 oz of meat per day, 4.5 oz of suet, and about 120 grams of carbs per day when I'm fully RPD.

Am I eating to much protein? I feel like 8 oz isn't enough, and 4 is nowhere neat enough.

[Projectile Vomit]

Are you saying you eat 100-120 grams of protein per day? That's like 4-5 oz of protein per day.

Does anyone else feel that's a very small amount of protein per day?

That sounds about right for an average-sized adult who isn't too active, assuming that when you say 'protein' you actually mean the wet weight of the muscle tissue, which is mostly water. Someone who is more active might eat 6-8 ounces of muscle tissue each day, but any more than that is eating excess protein that your body will turn into sugar to store, effectively turning a high-protein diet into a high-carb diet.

[TylerDurden]

8 ounces=0.22 kilos. Hmm, I've been eating way more meat a day and not had any issues. I've always suspected that the "too much protein" theory was dead-wrong.

[eveheart]

Protein weight does not equal meat weight, as has been mentioned. Rough estimate is that 100g muscle meat (lean portion) contains 20g protein.

A conservative estimate of protein need might be 170pound/75kg person needs around 60g protein per day.  That translates to 300g/10oz of lean muscle meat. More protein might be called for in some circumstances, but wa-a-ay more protein is wasteful.

[TylerDurden]

Well, er, 200g protein or less a day  is my usual then, and still hasn't harmed me.

[Bio-shell Avatar]

re my protein intake - usually i eat about 300g lean meat (beef or wild game) in the evening + 250g jogurt and during the day a liter kefir and perhaps 50g raw butter. i'd say that's approx. 75g protein from the meat and 45g protein from the dairy products - total 120g. my current weight is 70kg with about 20% body fat so lean weight 56kg which means about 56g protein/day would be ideal.

my job is mostly office work but i'm doing hit (resistance) and hiit (sprint 8 ) exercise in turns every 2-3 days, usually 20min workouts so i'm reasonably "active". despite that my metabolism is very low (i don't have hypothyroidism, low basal temp or anything) and i'm almost never hungry except maybe after a full day w/o food. i guess that's one of the few leftover benefits from my raw vegan days, i last a long time with little food.

the book "primal body, primal mind" has been recommended by several people here and i agree, it's probably the most comprehensive book about nutrition available right now. the author insists that protein intake should be moderate (like 1g/kg body weight) so as not to activate the mtor pathway, which would basically force cells to replicate instead of merely making repairs (ori hofmekler also wrote about this and explains it in interviews). since cells can't replicate indefinitely what this means is that a high protein intake shortens the lifespan of your cells and thus your body. that's probably the reason why "starvation diets" are said to expand lifespans such as when rats that were fed only 50% lived almost twice as long as those who could eat as much as they wanted.

anyway, i've just read one of peter d'adamo's bloodtype diet books and i'm going to try two things in the coming weeks. one is eliminating the dairy products and the other is eliminating the raw meat. he claims that blood type A should not eat meat and only fermented dairy products. i'm trying to find out if that's true because i need to get rid of two issues which have developed only after i started eating raw meat and drinking kefir (unfortunately i started both almost simultaneously) - a minor (but apparently increasing) case of acne and occasional lower back pain which i think comes from overtaxed kidneys. if dr. d'adamo is right and the lectins in either dairy or meat (or both) agglutinate in type A blood i should notice improvement of both conditions upon eliminating either one or the other food (or both if the kidneys and skin don't improve unless i drop both). if he's indeed right i guess i have a problem because apart from these two minor (so far) problems i feel much better, stronger and more energized than on a vegetarian diet and can't imagine going back. there has to be another way.

if any type A has had similar problems and found a solution please post it!

[Bio-shell Avatar]

here are two links to peter d'adamo's site. according to this i should be able to keep the kefir but have to elimiante the meat.

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?212 (kefir - NEUTRAL)

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?469 (beef - AVOID: Secretory insufficiency. Induces dysbiosis. Increases polyamine or indican levels. Inhibits proper gastric function or blocks assimilation.)

tyler, i don't know your blood type but based on d'adamo's research and your problems with dairy i'd say you're type O. is that right?

[TylerDurden]

Adamo's blood type diet is a con:-

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/NegativeBR/d%27adamo.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_diet#Scientific_criticism