Can we do without vegetables/greens?

[Adora]

Inger,  I've never had wild mushrooms, I could look into it, AV had a bad experience, so I haven't tried to learn about them, but I like other wild edibles. In the winter I love pine needle tea, its cooked though, wild. In the spring I eat the little sprouts from the pine trees, they come when it is still cold, one of the first greens in spring. How did you learn to identify wild mushrooms?

Max - Thanks for the recommendation. I like ketosis though. I hardly had any bad days in transition. I am not losing weight , even zc. I was, but I started over eating and stopped pretty much all exercise, due to broken foot, from over training and subsequent lapse of depression. Even though I gained back lbs. I still feel physically good and my foot healed a good bit this last week, so my spirits are much higher.
   The only other bad feeling was the cravings, I think it was partly BG and mood, but also the dairy, opened a gate way. It is such a pleasure to enjoy butter, cream, and cheese, but the cravings are considerably less without it just 1 day.

[MaximilianKohler]

You crave other stuff when eating dairy? What do you crave?

So you've already been on raw keto for a while and like it? What's your daily diet like and what do you like about ketosis?

[zaidi]

Inger, don't we need saturated fats?

I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...

I was reading Jack Kruse.

He advised to take extra MUFA's as added fat if one is taking Seafood.

http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/

Your thoughts please. 

[Joy2012]

Max - Thanks for the recommendation. I like ketosis though. I hardly had any bad days in transition. I am not losing weight , even zc. I was, but I started over eating and stopped pretty much all exercise, due to broken foot, from over training and subsequent lapse of depression. Even though I gained back lbs. I still feel physically good and my foot healed a good bit this last week, so my spirits are much higher.

Adora, I thought you prefer instinctive eating. Here is you post on July 28, 2012

"Joy don't give up on the instinctive approach. If you read and follow the instruction on how to listen to yourself, you might find that you don't over consume sweets at all. I was doing great with fruit and honey using instinctive. It took 2-3 days of strict attention to smell and taste, and then it got easier. I was loosing weight and eating much less sugar. GCB talks about emotional eating too.
     I wasn't aware of the stop for sugar well at first. I over ate some raw sweets on the first day or 2, but I became precise quick.
    I ate considerably less and lost 10lbs easy in a month. I gave into pressure and quit instinctive, but I'm going back tomorrow. You don't have to be totally insticitive forever, but it is a usefull practice, and if you follow the rules faithfully your instincts will sharpen."

[eveheart]

Adora, I thought you prefer instinctive eating. ...

I thought I'd chime in on this comment. I eat very low carb instinctively. There is no contradiction. It is a good choice for people who do not process well when insulin is involved, as well as for other issues. The idea behind instinctive eating is to have on hand a range of edible items. If carbs are not edible items for some reason, they are not kept on hand.

[Iguana]

But Eve, in most natural environments favorable to human life there are carbohydrates on hand anyway. In some cases, a few individuals may not like to eat "carby stuff" during a more or less long period, but everything changes with time.

Another point is that these distinctions between proteins, fats and carbs are modern knowledge. It would be preferable not to know about it or forget it, because such info tends to interfere with our nutritional choices. 

Best wishes
François

[zaidi]

Inger, don't we need saturated fats?

I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...

Here is the complete related part of the article of Jack.
http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/


FATS: (in order of Optimal)


1. Spring and summer: Coconut oil, ghee, palm oil, duck fat, beef tallow,  bacon fat, duck fat, pastured butter if there are no medical issue precluding its use, olive or avocado oils for salads, macadamia nut oils for mayonaise, raw cream if there are no contraindications* When you eat seafood try to use MUFA’s as the added fat.


2. Fall and Winter: ghee, pastured butter, duck fat, beef tallow, bacon fat, non hydrogenated lard,  raw cream*  Stick to animal fats in colder months. When you eat seafood try to use MUFA’s as the added fat.*

3. When you eat non seafood protein this is when you should add  your saturated fats to your diet to the greatest degree!! Grass fed red meat and offal come packed with saturated fats by nature and fish do not, by design as well as I laid out in the webinar.  When I eat non seafood protein and saturated fats, I tend to also add sea vegetables to the meal. 

[Adora]

Eve - I hope to get to where you are, but that is in my future. For now I weigh and measure and it is not instinctive at all. I add herbs and seasoning to feel more satisfied, I grind and warm food for ease and pleasure. I'm struggling to be free of carb cravings and over eating. That is my prime motive at this time.  I am crazed/dysfunctional/broken/addicted - whatever so, right now I'm just hoping that if I eat nutritionally dense, small meals, without carbs in time I will heal.

Joy -  I felt/feel connected to myself with instinctive eating, but it was too much for me. Maybe if I had a class or a coach I could have persevered. It brought to my attention more than I could handle under the stress that I don't know how to eliminate in my life presently. I had to focus in a particular way to eat according to instinctive principles and when the time is right for me I will return to it, but without carbs.
    On the other hand, with my full connection in an actual meditative state, I was able to eat exactly the right amt of food including honey and sweet fruits, for my growth as a whole person (physically/ mentally/emotionally healing). I was able and it was clear, but it required honesty and focus, that meant that I couldn't be on the phone or with others, watching TV, at work, or any distraction. I think for some this is easier due to less outside distractions, and less internal noise of addiction. It was getting easier, and I think eventually it would become really instinctive to be instinctive. I believe anybody could do it and it is a powerful tool for whole self healing.

zc is more doable for me. This has been a problem all of my life, EVERYTHING pivots around carbs and overeating, I want to deal with stuff, but it is to be overwhelmed. ZC especially with measuring, will hopefully help my BG to stabilize and  ease things up a bit. I also want to return to my light weight, agile form. Success in that department is motivating, and disappointment is deeply frustrating.

Max - I'm having a really tough time right now. I want to get through it and I'm hoping that if I switch things up and stay focused on success I'll out last the cravings. It worked when I was addicted to cigarettes. Sometimes, I thought the cravings would never pass. I had them for 5 years, they passed totally after about 10. I'm at least as hooked on overeating and carbs as I was on cigarettes.
    I'm pretty sure I substituted eating for some of the addictive smoking behavior. So, maybe now I'll reach the core of the addiction.  I avoided cigarettes and I healed that part. Avoiding the triggers it is a little easier than moderating my intake. The insidious voice of addiction has more fuel whenI moderate than when I exclude.  Meat/fish/fat/ seaweed/herbs/salt  aren't triggering me. I really enjoy dairy. I have no desire to stop drinking cream when my belly is full. Instead I think about adding honey and whipping them up then I think of the berries, and before I know it I'm sucking down snicker bars on the couch and can't get up because I'm so stuffed. Maybe it's because it raises my BG into the 200's immediately because injected subcutaneous insulin is much slower than gut carb absorption, IDK.  Not pretty! it's the same story for cream/cheese/butter isn't as immediate but, it still sings its bitter sweet song of addiction.

[eveheart]

But Eve, in most natural environments favorable to human life there are carbohydrates on hand anyway. In some cases, a few individuals may not like to eat "carby stuff" during a more or less long period, but everything changes with time.

Another point is that these distinctions between proteins, fats and carbs are modern knowledge. It would be preferable not to know about it or forget it, because such info tends to interfere with our nutritional choices. 

Best wishes
François

If, in a natural environment, I ate something that made me ache all over, I wouldn't continue to try it again. I do not look at a food and say, "This is a carb," and then subsequently react badly to eating it.  The bad reaction precedes the conclusion that I should avoid carbs. It is the simplest form of intelligence to avoid pain. Perhaps I would not experience inflammatory food intolerance if I had been fed differently from birth, but that is not my life.

[Joy2012]

Eve, I feel glad for you that you have found your ideal diet.  I tend to eat much sweet fruit when I do instincting eating, which I know is not too good. So I am still searching for my ideal diet.

Adora, it seems you are under much stress. I pray you will sort things out before long.

[Iguana]

What about replacing fruits with pastries and ice-creams? 

True, fruits may be not too good if they are much different from the wild, natural ones. If you could find more wild fruits, you could forget everything you think you know...

Anyhow, no more than one kind of fruit and nothing else for lunch should be fine, even more so if you can avoid fruits at dinner.    

[LePatron7]

What about people who live in areas where there are no wild fruits, ie. the city.

Should they avoid fruits and veggies altogether since they can't get wild fruits?

And what about people who can't afford organic produce? I eat regular produce with my organic, grass fed meats and it's fine for me.

[Inger]

Da Boss,
here one can buy wild frozen berries in any shop. Also dried seaweeds from health stores. Or on internet. I would say you have it almost easier in a city. But a health conscious individual will have a hard time to live in a city any way. I am so glad I do not have to. I only work there.
When wild berries are in season I guess everyone will have the opportunity to travel a bit outside the city and pick berries there.

I would absolutely choose no fruit at all over cultivated, unnatural, not in season ones..

Yeah.. I thought I could never live without my fruits too, years ago.. but then I tried it out to go totally without and it turned out to be a blessing for me! I would say, it is mostly the addiction to sweets that stays in ones way.

[Inger]

But Eve, in most natural environments favorable to human life there are carbohydrates on hand anyway. In some cases, a few individuals may not like to eat "carby stuff" during a more or less long period, but everything changes with time.

Francois.. how do you know what environment is favorable to human.. it might be different than you think now.
And what does favorable mean.. what feels good short time and we think is convenient, or what is the best for our longevity and health?
To have it convenient is not often what is good for our species.

[LePatron7]

Idk, I guess our opinions differ. I think so long as they're not GMO then they're OK. As far as I know only papaya, and I think zucchini are GMO. All the other fruits, veggies and nuts are non-GMO.

[MaximilianKohler]

Honestly, I don't think fruits are that bad. They've only been problematic for me when I didn't eat meat & fat as well(80/10/10rv). Eating some raw fat with or right after fruit was great for me(beef suet as the fat really improved mouth/teeth health). In other threads there are pictures of people who look healthy and not old for their age and they eat an (almost?) all fruitarian diet. But I think that extreme only works for a few people, much like ketosis.
When starting to eat instinctively I eat a lot of fruit (~3 meals fruit&fat, 1 veg, 1 meat) but then seem to eat more meat and veg when I start feeling better.

Also, from what I've read a lot of the organic vegetable and fruit buying is mostly hype. From what I've read and heard, unless you buy organic at a local farmer's market all your organic produce will have been sprayed with organic pesticides instead of non organic ones. Farmers say the organic pesticides are more destructive than the synthetic ones because they kill good insects and bugs while the synthetic ones are very specialized.
Also, only hawaiian papaya is GMO, mexican papaya is fine.

Adora how long have you been in ketosis? You basically crave sweets when you add dairy but without dairy you're fine? I remember around the time I was starting ketosis I would get intense cravings for sugar/candy and drive down to the store and buy like 15 candy bars and just chow down. I've had similar cravings for sweets(just not that intense usually) throughout my life. For me the solution was greens. If I eat enough vegetables, especially leafy greens, I don't get cravings. I haven't eaten any processed food in 3+ years. Any time I see any candy, cookies, or w/e it just doesn't appeal to me anymore.

[Iguana]

I fairly agree with you, Maximilian.

Francois.. how do you know what environment is favorable to human.. it might be different than you think now.
And what does favorable mean.. what feels good short time and we think is convenient, or what is the best for our longevity and health?
To have it convenient is not often what is good for our species.

Favorable means that there is water, a broad variety of food in plenty and a climate allowing us to live without fire, without technology. A hot desert such as the Death valley, high mountains like the top of Himalaya, a coral reef, an atoll without any trees, the Arctic and the Antarctic, asteroids and the moon, etc… are environments unfavorable to us.

Eliminate fire, cloths, shoes and all technology and then you would find which environment is best suitable, wouldn’t you? 

[Inger]

lol.. Francois I am certainly not going to debate with you what place is the most favorable for human.. I already know how that will end.. Ha. To be honest you said quite wisely.. maybe not exacly how me thinks but who cares. But I am sure where you live there is not an abundance of fruit year around, is there? I bet only in two seasons, summer and fall? And the other half of the year one had to survive without any fruits if eating only what is natural to the environment you live in? Tell me if I am wrong.
Up here the carb season is even shorter. It is just a few months.
I never said I am against carbs! People need to read better. I said, I think it is totally unnatural to eat carbs out of context. And with that I mean what the season produces where we live at the moment. In Africa there are also dry seasons and such. But I am not thinking it is ideal to live in such warm environment at all anymore. Too hot is not healthy. On the cooler side is better. Too cold might be an issue too for sure. But who knows how well we can adapt if we tried? But almost no one tries it anymore so hard to know.

To say supermarkt fruit is good is stupid. At least the fruits I have seen where I have lived. Very occasional I found something good but it was mostly a disaster, they did not satisfied me either. In my Instincto years I lived when it came to fruits, almost only from Orkos fruits, three ripenend, organic high quality exotic fruits. I was never able to go back to supermarkt fruits. They are radiated or something me thinks because one mango never ripens but stays stone hard and gets brown instead. It is all weird. No thanks. I am for local seasonal berries and fruit (wild are optimal).

There is something else magical with eating seasonally. It is always very exiting, because you do not have everything all the time, it feels much much more blessed somehow! You truly enjoy the first ripe wild raspberries.. and throughout the season you eat and eat and eat.. it is like in heaven! 

For Francois it might be the figs...

[Inger]

Maximilian.. a healthy body should have zero issues staying the winter and spring in ketosis. If you have issues, something does not work right in your body. To me it is a sign of un health. You can resolve those if you want though. But sure not if you continue to blame the ketosis for you feeling bad. Because it actually is your body not functioning properly...

I am not saying to force ketosis, it might be better to do it slowly. But I would do all I could to get the healing done if I had those issues, as it certainly tells something is amiss.

[LePatron7]

I'm just curious. I see a lot about eating in season, but mainly with plant foods. Does the same apply to animal foods? I mean, I can't get GRASS fed beef during the winter, just hay fed. Should I avoid grass fed animals while it's winter because it's not grass fed?

Not that I'm going to. Just curious.

[eveheart]

Lots of animal foods are seasonal. Right now, it's crab and oyster season along the coast where I live. Some seasonal hunting is established so that the animal can raise its young, but that is a kind of seasonality. Hens don't typically lay eggs here in the winter. My climate is warm enough for grassfed beef year round, but that is not true everywhere.

[zaidi]

@eveheart
@Van
@Inger

New domain for me  i.e. seaweeds. Please little more guidance:

1) Van & eveheart .... do you eat only ONE kind of seaweed (i.e. Alaria, which you mentioned). But in Germany, I think we don't have Alaria

2) Is Spirulina also acceptable as seaweed?

3) Inger:  you must be knowing the types of seaweeds available in Germany, and from which health store they could be bought.
At moment, I have found only some seaweeds in Asian stores. But I don't know about their quality. I would prefer to buy them from health stores, where one is sure for the quality.

Also, is there possible to buy fresh seaweeds in any health store?

Do you feel difference in health benefits when you eat dried seaweeds and when you eat the fresh seaweed?

In one Asian shop, I also found frozen non dried seaweeds.

So, I am now     i.e. confused and undecided.

[eveheart]

The several seaweed varieties I get are either semi-local (Mendocino California coast) or from Korea (because I trust the Korean stores near me). I get them sun-dried from wildcrafters who don't spray the seaweeds with pesticide. See what is around you - is there clean coastline with seaweed producers? Otherwise, Maine and Mendocino, CA, are good sources, as far as I know.

[MaximilianKohler]

Maximilian.. a healthy body should have zero issues staying the winter and spring in ketosis. If you have issues, something does not work right in your body. To me it is a sign of un health. You can resolve those if you want though. But sure not if you continue to blame the ketosis for you feeling bad. Because it actually is your body not functioning properly...

I am not saying to force ketosis, it might be better to do it slowly. But I would do all I could to get the healing done if I had those issues, as it certainly tells something is amiss.

Well you're partially right in that I am disabled so I'm not in perfect health. It's the reason I started trying various extreme diets in the first place. However, I think I would be a perfect model for testing what is our ideal diet since the benefits and negatives of every diet are maximized to me. Just because a healthy body can handle something doesn't make it ideal. There are many people who handle the standard american diet.
Not to mention that many of the men on this forum have tried ketosis and had similar issues with it, while many of the women on here seem to do fine, if not well on ketosis.

Also, weren't you under the impression that you were in ketosis while eating large amounts of nuts which in reality have many carbs? Thus all the great benefits you were attributing to ketosis were actually due to a high fat, low carb diet which works well for most people.

Oh, my mistake, it was Löwenherz, not you. But it still makes me wonder whether or not the people advocating ketosis actually know what they're talking about.

[van]

it works for me, but it does take time for the body to switch from burning sugar to fat.  Gets easier every day.  Once there,  you then have the ability to notice sugar in foods which before didn't seem like sugar.  For example,  most fruits taste very sugary, and I always thought they could never taste sweet or sugary enough.   And since I don't crave them (for energy)  they don't satisfy like before.  The initial taste of pleasure is there, but it doesn't last for very long or many bites.