Author Topic: Can we do without vegetables/greens?  (Read 105320 times)

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Offline Haai

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #200 on: May 21, 2013, 02:03:13 am »
The acid/alkali theory is nonsense:-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

 And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.

From that link:

"When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood. But your blood never becomes acidic because as soon as the proteins are converted to organic acids, calcium leaves your bones to neutralize the acid and prevent any change in pH. Because of this, many scientists think that taking in too much protein may weaken bones to cause osteoporosis."

Surely that makes the acid/alkali theory not a load of bull?  It even says in the article, "ALKALINE-ASH FOODS include fresh fruit and raw vegetables. ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS, whole grains, beans and other seeds".

Shouldn't osteoporosis on a high animal food diet be a cause for concern?

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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #201 on: May 21, 2013, 03:15:53 am »
Never heard of a carnivore suffering from osteoporosis
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #202 on: May 21, 2013, 04:14:39 am »
lex reported that his bone density increased following his meat/organ mix (pet food) only diet.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #203 on: May 21, 2013, 06:15:26 am »
From that link:

"When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood...."

Shouldn't osteoporosis on a high animal food diet be a cause for concern?

I'm hearing a hint of the misconception that animal food diet = lots of protein. Indeed, many people do eat more muscle than they need, which could lead to the problem cited in the article, but this would be the fault of eating too much protein, not the fault of eating a lot of animal food.
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Offline MaximilianKohler

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #204 on: May 21, 2013, 06:48:45 am »
Never heard of a carnivore suffering from osteoporosis
Humans aren't carnivores, and unless you're a vet a random person not knowing about possible diseases that animals suffer from doesn't mean much.

lex reported that his bone density increased following his meat/organ mix (pet food) only diet.
Mine was low while I was on keto, but I didn't take a test before or after so I have no comparison.
My testosterone was also low when on ketosis and it's normal/high when not in ketosis.

I'm hearing a hint of the misconception that animal food diet = lots of protein. Indeed, many people do eat more muscle than they need, which could lead to the problem cited in the article, but this would be the fault of eating too much protein, not the fault of eating a lot of animal food.
Uh... what parts of animals other than suet would be low in protein? It's pretty much a given that you will be getting large amounts of protein on a high animal food diet since your two options are meat and fat...

Offline van

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #205 on: May 21, 2013, 09:13:06 am »
that's the point, eat more fat, less meat.  So so easy to over eat protein (meat)

Offline eveheart

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #206 on: May 21, 2013, 11:51:07 am »
Uh... what parts of animals other than suet would be low in protein? It's pretty much a given that you will be getting large amounts of protein on a high animal food diet since your two options are meat and fat...

Bone marrow, subcutaneous fat (not suet), intramuscular fat (not suet). One of my favorite juicy fats is the subcutaneous fat of fish like salmon and mackerel.
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Offline MaximilianKohler

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #207 on: May 21, 2013, 02:34:52 pm »
If you eat fish to get the fat you're going to get a lot of protein along with it as well. Same goes for everything else you mentioned besides marrow. Maybe there are some people who don't mind eating suet multiple times a day instead of fruit, but it sure as hell isn't appealing to me. And when I tried it it didn't make me feel good at all.

Offline Haai

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #208 on: May 21, 2013, 02:59:55 pm »
Never heard of a carnivore suffering from osteoporosis

It would be interesting to know why though.
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Offline Haai

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #209 on: May 21, 2013, 03:05:46 pm »
I'm hearing a hint of the misconception that animal food diet = lots of protein. Indeed, many people do eat more muscle than they need, which could lead to the problem cited in the article, but this would be the fault of eating too much protein, not the fault of eating a lot of animal food.

From: Cordain L, Eaton SB, Brand Miller J, Mann N, Hill K. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: Meat based, yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr 2002;56 (suppl 1):S42-S52.

"the diets of hominids living in Europe during the Paleolithic were indistinguishable from top trophic level carnivores such as arctic foxes and wolves."

 I've never heard of a pack of wolves leaving a carcass with a load of meat left on it because there wasn't enough fat to go with it
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #210 on: May 21, 2013, 04:59:51 pm »
>>  I've never heard of a pack of wolves leaving a carcass with a load of meat left on it because there wasn't enough fat to go with it

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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #211 on: May 21, 2013, 05:47:44 pm »
From: Cordain L, Eaton SB, Brand Miller J, Mann N, Hill K. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: Meat based, yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr 2002;56 (suppl 1):S42-S52.

"the diets of hominids living in Europe during the Paleolithic were indistinguishable from top trophic level carnivores such as arctic foxes and wolves."

 I've never heard of a pack of wolves leaving a carcass with a load of meat left on it because there wasn't enough fat to go with it
They would also eat the fatty organs, brains and most of the marrow.
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preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #212 on: May 21, 2013, 07:31:27 pm »
Uh... what parts of animals other than suet would be low in protein? It's pretty much a given that you will be getting large amounts of protein on a high animal food diet since your two options are meat and fat...

Most of the stuff you find at the store will be low fat. Muscle meats, certain organs (liver, heart, kidney). Same thing with wild caught salmon, shrimp, etc. But I do try to moderate my protein intake and keep it under 120 grams a day. You can really go overboard on protein and carbs with a raw diet if you don't find a good source for fat.

I personally don't like suet at all. The hard, chalky texture wasn't appealing to me at all. But I found a good source of "beef fat," which isn't the fat surrounding the organs (like suet), but the fat surrounding the muscle. It's typically very soft, almost like butter. When it's not winter it's usually a cream color and some times even completely yellow. I love the stuff and eat 2.5 oz with each meal to add 500 calories from fat per meal. I also moderate my protein by only eating 5 oz per meal (always chuck roast/beef, unless it's one of my weekly salmon or shrimp meals).
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #213 on: May 21, 2013, 10:46:21 pm »
If you eat fish to get the fat you're going to get a lot of protein along with it as well. Same goes for everything else you mentioned besides marrow. Maybe there are some people who don't mind eating suet multiple times a day instead of fruit, but it sure as hell isn't appealing to me. And when I tried it it didn't make me feel good at all.

You asked about animal sources, but of course there are other sources of fats. I agree with you, in that I don't enjoy suet, either. I buy extra fat during the seasons when the non-kidney fats are yellow from the abundance of grass in the animals' diets. If someone doesn't like these fats, then they would simply eat other fats. With fats, taste is a good indicator of suitability.
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Offline Haai

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #214 on: May 22, 2013, 12:34:57 am »
They would also eat the fatty organs, brains and most of the marrow.

Yes I know. I was taking that into account. But, for example a white tailed dear can have as little as 2% body fat by weight (including marrow and brain and all other fats).  If the whole of that carcass is eaten, except for bones, hooves, antlers and hide, you would get approx. 17.5% of energy from fat and approx. 82.5% from protein.

Reference: Cordain L, Brand Miller J, Eaton SB, Mann N, Holt SHA, Speth JD. Plant to animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2000, 71:682-92.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Haai

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #215 on: May 22, 2013, 12:41:55 am »
Anyway, doesn't animal fat result in an acidic  potential renal load?

In the article that Tyler provided a link for it says, "ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS".
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline van

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #216 on: May 22, 2013, 05:18:44 am »
yes deer are low in fat, but look up elk, moose (especially the older ones) bison, elephants or hippos...   

Offline MaximilianKohler

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #217 on: May 22, 2013, 05:28:07 am »
Bison are lower in fat than cows. And elephants and hippos? Come on... humans don't eat those animals. Maybe at some point we may have and maybe even now in certain parts of the world but it's extremely unheard of.

Offline van

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #218 on: May 22, 2013, 09:42:44 am »
I wasn't suggesting eating hippos or elephants,,, but most likely those are the animals along with water buffaloes and other herd animals that roamed the plains of Africa that primitive hunter gathers feasted on.  Yes the meat of bison is lower in fat, but if you read up on the plains indians and early settlers/bison hunters they chose the older ones, especially at end of summer where they had hundreds of pounds of fat stored on their body for the winter months ahead.   Most of the mammals and animals in the North pole are also fully fat.    This has been a debate for some time with Cordain and others.  You can try to prove a point if you look narrow enough.  However there have been large regions of the world with animals with large fat stores, and in numbers where protein excesses were most likely wasted in favor of foods people wanted.     
     There are only a 'few' people researching and teaching low protein, high fat diets,, Ron Rosedale being one of them.  Eating a high protein diet doesn't show up as detrimental over the short term, just as eating a high fruit diet doesn't.  One thinks everything is fine because it's so hard to note one's health decline since we live in our bodies day to day, and can hardly notice small declines.  That's exactly what happens to heavy  fruit eaters,,, they feel wonderful when first starting out;  all those organic distilled waters in the fruits, so cleansing, so energizing with all the sugars fueling their bodies, and then they have to eat more and more sugar for the same effect, and then the leptin and insulin resistance builds and then a slow downward spiral begins,, with most thinking that they are in some sort of detox, where they need to fast again or they need to move to the tropics because they are now so sensitive to pollutants,  that they are so spiritually sensitive that they need to protect themselves from the rest of us. 
   I'm suggesting  something similar happens when we eat too much protein.  It turns into blood sugar, we feel good, but at the expense of longevity.    Rosedale says something almost unique,,,  we weren't designed to live forever, just long enough to pass along our genes and teach our offspring how to survive.   I believe that's where science can offer something beyond that of simply following what and how much our ancestors ate,, if that's even possible to know.

Offline Inger

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #219 on: May 22, 2013, 01:28:21 pm »
After a few years on almost animals only and high fat and protein my enamel on my teeth is crazy strong told me my dentist. I bet my bones too because this winter I fell 3 times with my bike on plain icy roads I recognised too late.. and I got zero issues....
But I always eat wild greens in summer too. Quite a lot. I always tan when I can, too.

Radiations is a big cause of osteoporosis. And loss of magnetic field. So if you live on 10th floor in a city today..... really bad. Wireless internet everywhere, smart meters.. etc. Those really do no good for your bones. If you are concerned about your bone health, look at those first, and do lots of nude tanning, and earthing.

It is never only one thing. There might be plenty of things missing when our health suffer. We need to look at them all.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #220 on: May 22, 2013, 02:22:10 pm »
Radiations is a big cause of osteoporosis. And loss of magnetic field. So if you live on 10th floor in a city today..... really bad.

Do you mean that living on the first floor is better for bone health?

Offline Alive

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #221 on: May 22, 2013, 02:30:54 pm »
@Haai,
Here is one of the links Tyler gave to show that more recently scientific reviews have dis-proven the acid/alkaline ash theory. These reviews say that eating acid or alkaline forming foods have no correlation to bone health:
 
"Recent systematic reviews have been published which have methodically analyzed the weight of available scientific evidence, and have found no significant evidence to support the acid-ash hypothesis in regards to prevention of osteoporosis. A meta-analysis of studies on the effect of dietary phosphate intake contradicted the expected results under the acid-ash hypothesis with respect to calcium in the urine and bone metabolism. This result suggests use of this diet to prevent calcium loss from bone is not justified.[7] Other meta-analyses which have investigated the effect of total dietary acid intake have also found no evidence that acid intake increases the risk for osteoporosis as would be expected under the acid-ash hypothesis.[6][8] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet#Scientific_evaluation

Offline Inger

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #222 on: May 22, 2013, 05:41:10 pm »
Do you mean that living on the first floor is better for bone health?

I think so. Not only for bone health, but for our overall health too. After what I have learned past months I would not ever move to any floor above the 1st. And certainly NOT into a city anyways. They have turned into a radiation danger zone for our health... and they continue to get worse..

Offline Haai

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #223 on: May 23, 2013, 01:43:44 am »
@Haai,
Here is one of the links Tyler gave to show that more recently scientific reviews have dis-proven the acid/alkaline ash theory. These reviews say that eating acid or alkaline forming foods have no correlation to bone health:
 
"Recent systematic reviews have been published which have methodically analyzed the weight of available scientific evidence, and have found no significant evidence to support the acid-ash hypothesis in regards to prevention of osteoporosis. A meta-analysis of studies on the effect of dietary phosphate intake contradicted the expected results under the acid-ash hypothesis with respect to calcium in the urine and bone metabolism. This result suggests use of this diet to prevent calcium loss from bone is not justified.[7] Other meta-analyses which have investigated the effect of total dietary acid intake have also found no evidence that acid intake increases the risk for osteoporosis as would be expected under the acid-ash hypothesis.[6][8] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet#Scientific_evaluation

Thanks!
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline tests

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #224 on: June 05, 2013, 06:07:04 pm »
Most of the stuff you find at the store will be low fat. Muscle meats, certain organs (liver, heart, kidney). Same thing with wild caught salmon, shrimp, etc. But I do try to moderate my protein intake and keep it under 120 grams a day. You can really go overboard on protein and carbs with a raw diet if you don't find a good source for fat.

I personally don't like suet at all. The hard, chalky texture wasn't appealing to me at all. But I found a good source of "beef fat," which isn't the fat surrounding the organs (like suet), but the fat surrounding the muscle. It's typically very soft, almost like butter. When it's not winter it's usually a cream color and some times even completely yellow. I love the stuff and eat 2.5 oz with each meal to add 500 calories from fat per meal. I also moderate my protein by only eating 5 oz per meal (always chuck roast/beef, unless it's one of my weekly salmon or shrimp meals).

where do you get your fat from?

 

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