School killings

[Brad462]

A short history lesson for the deaf, blind, and dumb: DEMOCIDE (DEATH BY GOVERNMENT) HAS KILLED OVER 260,000,000 PEOPLE

[raw-al]

No, I am suggesting that if you bring statistics  into the argument that they should support your conclusion.  It would be more logical to compare the crime rates of the U.S. to countries with very strict gun control.

Hmmmmmmm interesting but rather silly. Canada is right next door and so is Mexico but they are like chalk and cheese compared to the US.

Canada has strict gun laws, read - virtually no handguns, no automatic weapons, no concealed weapons, you have to pass a Hunter Capability course to get a Firearms Acquisition Certificate which brings in your Police etc records etc, then you can get a rifle. This does not happen in a day because you have to wait for the class to start for the course and then wait for the Police to do their checking.

You can get a handgun, but in order to carry it you have to have a Police issued permit to have it in your car (unloaded, in a case and I believe the firing mechanism disassembled) and you have to describe the route and when you plan to carry it, say if you are going to a shooting range. Each time you carry it you have to have a certificate which has to be applied for.

In your house, your firearms must be unloaded and kept locked up and I believe the firing mechanism disassembled, when not being used.

There was even more restrictive laws that the current gov't has defanged where all firearms had to be registered.

Murder happens but on a much less dramatic scale than the US. People are not driving around with gun lobby stickers like you see in the US, and Canada is nowhere as much a Police state as the US. People do not have flags hanging from the front door.

Most Canadians (except for the rednecks on the prairies who want pistols to shoot gophers LOL) are quite content to have the laws as is. I am not saying this as a liberal woos, it's just a fact.

The US was forged from a war and has been fighting them since day 1, even internally.

I remember I was in Wichita KS training and we were walking to a bar one night when we saw this couple across the street arguing. He seemed to be getting physical, so I said to the other two guys "lets do something". They both looked at me like I had two heads and said "Are you F*#ckin nuts? He might have a gun!"

[raw-al]

A short history lesson for the deaf, blind, and dumb: DEMOCIDE (DEATH BY GOVERNMENT) HAS KILLED OVER 260,000,000 PEOPLE

The US has it's own version of population control. It's called guns.

[Brad462]

Yeah, well, unless you live in a bad neighborhood your chances of getting shot are infinitely low.  Death by drugs and cars are more realistic fears, but live your life in fear of getting shot if you want.  You have every right to be a coward.

[wodgina]

He was never ever going to get laid...the main reason he went nuts.

Forget this video game crap. All kids play wars/fights.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, I have American acquaintances who state that, often, it's not even worth reporting crimes to the police in their areas  because they are usually too corrupt or incompetent or worse. Also, statistics, especially crime-statistics, are so easily fraudulently  massaged by the relevant government bureaus.

The given Columbine example was a bad one. The bombs failed to explode - unsurprising, as it would be expected of  inexperienced high-schoolers to either blow themselves up in preparation or make bombs that couldn't blow up.

Simply put,  inexperienced teenagers on a hormonal rampage against society etc., are not going to think carefully about anything, so a well-prepared adult would be able to quickly neutralise any potential threat, rather than hiding behind classroom doors waiting for the end.

[raw-al]

Hmm, I have American acquaintances who state that, often, it's not even worth reporting crimes to the police in their areas  because they are usually too corrupt or incompetent or worse. Also, statistics, especially crime-statistics, are so easily fruadulently  massaged by the relevant government bureaus.

The given Columbine example was a bad one. The bombs failed to explode - unsuprising, as it would be expected of  inexperienced high-schoolers to either blow themselves up in preparation or make bombs that couldn't blow up.

Simply put,  inexperienced teenagers on a hormonal rampage against society etc., are not going to think carefully about anything, so a well-prepared adult would be able to quickly neutralise any potential threat, rather than hiding behind classroom doors waiting for the end.

Unprepared teenagers is hardly how I would classify the Columbine characters. For someone unprepared, they managed to leave quite a wake of destruction behind them. My point was that despite their well thought out, well laid plans of destruction, only a small portion of it went off poorly. It so happened that that part of the plan would have made it a truly historical event, approaching Timothy McVey's magnum opus.

There was no well-prepared adults in the school who quickly neutralized anything.

As Eric said quite accurately

Quote from Eric:
An armed teacher would not have the advantage you assume. In these cases the perpetrator has the element of surprise, and that's a huge advantage that's hard to counter. Beyond this, expecting teachers to learn to use a firearm well enough to effectively counter someone who isn't afraid to die is a tall order. Police officers and soldiers spend years learning to do this, and despite their intensive training regimes they still regularly fail. Arming teachers will just mean there are more bullets flying around, not necessarily reduced risk.

[TylerDurden]

The whole point is that the Columbine killers were indeed poorly prepared, or they would have made functional bombs. And they were only able to wreak destruction because the teachers were unarmed, and so had to hide from the killers, a hardly viable option compared to blowing away the culprits.

Re the quote:-  You're missing the point once again. The element of surprise only works once. If you bother to actually read the accounts, you'll find again and again, that, after the first shot, the remaining teachers all had plenty of warning due to having perfectly good hearing,  and hid the kids if they were able to. So, if the kids were brilliant sharpshooters(a highly unlikely scenario) they might shoot one teacher, but would likely end up dead shortly afterwards. Besides, like I said, an adult well-trained in guns is going to have a much higher chance of survival against hyper-hormonal teenagers who are unlikely to have any decent comparable training in firearms.

[raw-al]

A short history lesson for the deaf, blind, and dumb: DEMOCIDE (DEATH BY GOVERNMENT) HAS KILLED OVER 260,000,000 PEOPLE

The US has a reputation for talking much bigger than the walk. For all the bluster and blunder of this spokesman (Alex Jones) who is duplicated all over your country, talks a big story, but examine the facts.

The US has more guns per capita arguable than citizens anywhere else in the world and yet they have the highest rate of government detainees (0.743%) of any country in the world, including The Soviet Union at it's worst of excesses. So much for "fighting for the land of the brave, home of the free". It's all just talk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate
USA 743 per 100,000 citizens
Russia (second place) 517
Canada 117 (123rd place)
China 120

Quote Wackipedia:
While Americans only represent about 5 percent of the world's population, nearly one-quarter of the entire world's inmates have been incarcerated in the United States in recent years.[3] Imprisonment of America's 2.3 million prisoners, costing $24,000 per inmate per year, and $5.1 billion in new prison construction, consumes $60 billion in budget expenditures.

They only got rid of government Press Gangs
http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/the-impress-service-press-gangs-and-the-royal-navy/  http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm
in the form of the "Compulsory Draft" less than 40 years ago, but left the registration process in effect, 'just in case the Government wanted to force young males to go fight in another immoral war somewhere, to line the pockets of the likes of Bush/Romney/Obama's (etc) cronies, and the Israel Lobby'
http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374531501
while ensuring that big-heroes like Bush can evade the draft in a haven for the rich and famous in the Texas Air Guard. Not to mention get away with cocaine use, but participate in (Pass laws) sending young people to jail and preventing them from going to university for doing the same thing.

The US spends more than the rest of the world combined on sending it's youngest and healthiest males to foreign countries for the pleasure of coming home in a box. So can you explain how that makes people free? With all those guns in the hands of the populace, this is not supposed to happen.

So why isn't the populace coming out the woodwork to defend freedom with all the guns?

My theory is that the guns are a big huge demonstration of the terror in the minds of the wimps that own them.

[Brad462]

Maybe we need to import more Canadians...   

[raw-al]

Tyler,
the columbine massacre happened when least expected. The leader was a sociopath with a history of and recent usage of psychotropic drugs. If someone is bound and determined to do damage, they will succeed, whether it is in a classroom, hallway, schoolyard, wherever. Aside from creating laws to govern every student's movements which is against everything that you and I believe in, there is very little if nothing to be done. It is a sporadic guerrilla war coming from within and it is not likely to be quelled by laws or guns. There were all kinds of BS theories as to what happened blaming it on the parents, the Police and even bullying but these were effectively nonsense. Most of the kids in the country would be locked up or shot if every possibility of protecting the populace was examined.

Giving teachers the right to shoot preemptively to kill is hardly a good idea.

[Paleo Donk]

If Americans have by far the most guns then why hasn't one mass killer been killed by a civilian? Has any mass shooter even been shot at? Gun nuts keep insisting that more guns would have stopped these massacres or at least reduced the number of killings. What the gun nuts never point out are all the times that concealed carriers have been at the scene and simply fled or hid like everyone else and waited for the cops and never reported to anyone that they had a gun. This silent evidence will never be recorded.

[raw-al]

Maybe we need to import more Canadians...   

It has nothing to do with country of origin. Canada has 1/10 the population spread over a slightly larger country. http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/simdiff.htm
(I love it - "24.6 times more horses, mules and asses, and 4.2 times more pigs."

When you squeeze that many people into a country, tempers flare. Simple as that. Add some lethal weapons and you have mayhem.

Britain has the population density but keeps things civil like Japan with strict gun laws.
If you have loads of time this article which (I breezed over it) examines how things got the way they are regarding guns in the US/Canada.
http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkcgc.html

[Brad462]

Correct me if I am wrong Paleo donk, but don't mass shooters usually off themselves while the pigs are waiting outside?

[raw-al]

BTW I enjoy visiting the US and have lots of friends in various places there. As a teen I hitchhiked across Canada but had seen so much violence in the US on TV that I stayed away. My initial visit to NY was to pick up fuel in Teterboro. With all the media out of NY showing crime/murder and mayhem I expected it to be like the moon and was blown away (figuratively LOL) when on approach, as I was flying over so many trees and beautiful landscapes, I thought maybe we had the wrong approach plates out.

About 5 years ago I was in NY and we decided to try the subway. We were once again treated to an excellent time and had a large # of friendly people just lining up to help make sure we got where we were going. The employees there were equally as friendly and helpful.

[raw-al]

Correct me if I am wrong Paleo donk, but don't mass shooters usually off themselves while the pigs are waiting outside?

Yeah Brad but by this time they have laid waste to a large # of people. It's kind of like closing the gate when the animals have all left.

[Brad462]

Yeah, that is my point.  If you're counting on the police to save you then might as well kiss your ass goodbye.

[raw-al]

Yeah, that is my point.  If you're counting on the police to save you then might as well kiss your ass goodbye.

OK gotcha. I misinterpreted.

[raw-al]

Yeah, well, unless you live in a bad neighborhood your chances of getting shot are infinitely low.  Death by drugs and cars are more realistic fears, but live your life in fear of getting shot if you want.  You have every right to be a coward.

Actually I do not spend my time being fearful, however many years ago my wife and I were in Hawaii on vacation, sitting in our convertible by our B&B, opening a bottle of wine and thinking we had it made, when we heard a commotion down the street and a few popping sounds. My wife started freaking out and said someone had been shot. I said "relax, you've been watching too many movies".

Anyways in this quiet suburban neighbourhood about a block from the beach in Kailua, two people were having a dispute, one ran in the house got a gun and shot the other guy. When we heard an ambulance with the sirens wailing, arrive at our street, it dawned on me that my wife was right. (not unusual BTW LOL)

I guess we beat the odds.

[ys]

If Americans have by far the most guns then why hasn't one mass killer been killed by a civilian?

This statement is totally silly.  On average American do own the most firearms.  But only a very small fraction of them choose to carry concealed weapon.  Especially teachers who are usually pacifists specifically CHOOSE NOT to carry them or have anything to do with firearms.  The results are obvious.

Gun nuts keep insisting that more guns would have stopped these massacres or at least reduced the number of killings.

Yes, Yes, and more Yes.

If school principal was trained in carrying a concealed weapon the result would have been very different.  Even if there was an armed guard the result would be very different.

If I carry a weapon and encounter an attack at least I have a chance to defend myself.

The only solution to this issue to have more people get trained to carry and use firearms.

Remember, bad guys will always have weapons no matter how strict the bans are.

This incident is no different than armed criminal breaking into someone home and gets killed by the homeowner who's been trained to use firearms to defend his home.  There are thousands of cases where homeowners successfully defended their homes.

Gun bans do not reduce gun crimes.  Chicago has one of the most strictest gun laws.  Yet there are more people die from gun violence than American troops in Afghanistan.

Again, if more lawful citizens would be proficient in carrying handguns these morons would not stand a chance.  Carrying a concealed gun is not like carrying a cell phone.  It requires some serious training.

[raw-al]

A post from another place





NaturalNews) All nine of the bystanders who were injured in yesterday's Empire State Building shooting incident were shot by police, the media is now reporting. NYPD officers "fired randomly" into the street, striking nine bystanders in the legs, buttocks and elbow. The gunman, Jeffrey Johnson, had only one intended target: his former boss. Johnson never fired at police, it turns out, despite Mayor Bloomberg's initial description claiming he did.

The Guardian is now reporting: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/24/empire-state-building-sho...)

Questions have been raised over the New York police department's handling of a shooting near the Empire State Building after armed officers injured nine passers-by as they pursued a gunman who had just shot dead his former boss.

One of those injured by police told the Guardian that officers appeared to fire "randomly" as they confronted Jeffrey Johnson, 58, minutes after a workplace dispute escalated into a chaotic shootout in one of the busiest parts of Manhattan.

Reports suggest that while Johnson drew his gun when he was confronted by officers, he did not fire; all those injured appear to have been shot by police.

In other words, this was no random attack. This wasn't a wild, rampaging shooter. The real damage to the public was done by the NYPD, whose officers apparently can't hit the broad side of a barn at fifty yards.

The Guardian continues:

Robert Asika was among those wounded, shot in the elbow from a distance of around eight feet by one of the two police officers who confronted Johnson. He accused police of "shooting randomly", and said he saw at least two others hit by police bullets.

"If you're gonna aim try and aim perfectly. If you wanna aim at the target, you got to know what you're doing because it's the street," Asika said. "I could have been dead right now. I could have been dead."

The NYPD has offered Asika no apology.

Gun violence caused by the NYPD

Bloomberg, always an opponent of the firearms ownership rights of private citizens, loves to lament the danger of "all those guns out there." What he doesn't seem to realize, however, is that it's the guns in the hands of NYPD cops that caused most of the damage in this case: 90% of the shooting victims were shot by the NYPD.

But wait a second here. I know for a fact that NYPD police officers receive hundreds of hours of training and range time in learning how to accurately shoot firearms. Every officer on the force is capable of hitting a fist-sized target from a distance of eight feet. Officers must routinely re-qualify on their pistol skills to remain on the force.

So how could NYPD officers possibly fire 16 rounds and hit nine bystanders unless they were actually trying to?

Hitting nine bystanders with 16 rounds of ammo is difficult to accomplish even if you're trying to do it. But these NYPD cops somehow managed to pull it off. It begs the question: Were these cops intentionally trying to let loose a few extra rounds into the crowd so that they could stage a mass shooting with a high body count and then blame it on the gunman they shot dead? It's not difficult to imagine officers being ordered to do this. "We need more victims of gun violence," Bloomberg could be imagined saying to the Chief of Police. "Make sure your boys turn every shooting into a mass murder with lots of casualties."

Or maybe that sounds totally loony, you say. Bloomberg would never say that. Street beat officers would never intentionally try to harm innocent bystanders. I tend to agree with you. The police officers I know would never engage in such actions. So then what's the only remaining explanation for what happened? NYPD officers are wildly incompetent and a danger to the public.

NYPD officers either shot bystanders on purpose, or they are extremely incompetent

Every person who has ever taken firearms training knows there are four fundamental rules of gun safety:

1) Assume all guns are loaded at all times.
2) Never point the barrel at anything you don't wish to destroy.
3) Keep your trigger finger off the trigger until you are on the target and have decided to shoot.
4) Always know what is BEYOND YOUR TARGET. Bullets, you see, have a nasty habit of going through things and then hitting other things you never intended to hit.

But the NYPD is even worse. Their officers didn't merely violate rule No. 4. They couldn't even aim accurately at their target in the first place!

One of the victims in this shooting, Askia, was only eight feet away from the cop that shot him. Eight feet away! Can a NYPD cop not hit the right target from just eight feet away these days?

And remember, NYPD cops didn't hit just one innocent bystander... they shot NINE innocent bystanders! Four women and five men were all hit by police bullets, and the police only fired 16 rounds total. At least nine of those 16 rounds hit innocent bystanders rather than the intended target.

Hey Bloomberg, "Gun control" means using both hands

Maybe Mayor Bloomberge needs to rethink what "gun control" really means. For NYPD cops, gun control should mean controlling your own gun!

When you pull that trigger, make sure the barrel of your firearm is not pointed at innocent bystanders. Use a two-handed grip and get off the mind-altering meds that mess with head and screw up your aim.

Or maybe NYPD cops should be issued .22LR pistols so they do a lot less damage when blindly firing into crowds of innocent bystanders.

Or cap guns.

Or maybe Bloomberg should require NYPD officers take concealed carry classes because there, every student is taught to know what's beyond your target before you pull the trigger. As a bonus, most concealed carry shooters can actually hit a man-sized target at 14 feet without injuring nine bystanders in the process.

Go figure.

The good news in all this? The truth already came out

I'm shocked that the truth about the NYPD cops shooting all nine of the injured bystanders has already come out. I expected a full cover-up, complete with denials, faked ballistics reports, and a lying mass media trying to blame all the injuries on the lone gunman. After all, another "mass shooting" would fit right into Bloomberg's citizen disarmament agenda.

Instead, the truth has already come out: The bystanders were shot by the police! The cover-up is already blown. I wonder if we'll all be branded "conspiracy theorists" for knowing that the police shot the bystanders, not the gunman?

In a shooting, much like in an act of war, the truth is the first casualty. But not this time. It looks like the truth already came out thanks to the testimony of witnesses who were shot by police. Now, if they had been killed by the police and unable to speak, this might have been a totally different story...

Lessons learned from the Empire State Building shooting

Lesson #1) If you're someone's boss, try not to piss them off to such a degree that they literally want to put a bullet in your head.

Lesson #2) Keep your distance from NYPD cops. They are extremely dangerous, totally incompetent and apparently have no "gun control" skills.

Lesson #3) The next time there's a mass shooting, don't automatically think the lone gunman did all the damage. Because in this shooting, 90% of the casualties were caused by the NYPD.

Lesson #4) If you live in New York City, what's wrong with you? Don't you know NYC is going to be the ultimate death trap in a collapse scenario? Get out of the city, if not for the cops themselves then at least to get away from the wave of zombies that we know is coming because it was depicted in a movie starring Will Smith.

Hey, here's an idea (this part is SATIRE, folks). Why not give all NYPD cops mortars and let them just start randomly firing mortars into the city in order to "get the terrorists?" Don't laugh. That might be next on their police militarization agenda. We'll call them "Bloomberg mortars" and they'll be manufactured with special fragmentation shrapnel that's designed to go through people, but not buildings. That way all the bank buildings on Wall Street can emerge from the shelling unscathed. After all, protecting the banks is what New York politicians do best.

This Christmas, I'm going to send the NYPD some range targets for their practice. But I'm gonna send them really big archery targets so they can actually hit them (http://www.bigshottargets.com/products.php#bigshot450x).

Sources for this story include:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/24/empire-state-building-sho...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-news-blog/2012/aug/24/empire-state...
GUNMAN KILLS former BOSS in Empire State Building SHOOTING: POLICE CHASE [CCTV]
   
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[raw-al]

If school principal was trained in carrying a concealed weapon the result would have been very different.  Even if there was an armed guard the result would be very different.

LOL, see the article on the NYPD.

If I carry a weapon and encounter an attack at least I have a chance to defend myself.

The only solution to this issue to have more people get trained to carry and use firearms.

Remember, bad guys will always have weapons no matter how strict the bans are.

Not true in countries that have strict gun control laws.

In the case of the shopping mall shooting there was a guy with a gun who hid behind a post and couldn't get a clear shot at the gunman because he might have hit others close by.

Handguns are notorious for being difficult to aim correctly due to the sort barrel length, and weight and awkwardness. Collateral damage is not something you would want to live with.

At the moment, in the excitement, you would instantaneously justify it, but if it was a pregnant neighbour or a child or your mother that succumbed to your 'big hero move', time would weigh heavily on your mind.

This incident is no different than armed criminal breaking into someone home and gets killed by the homeowner who's been trained to use firearms to defend his home.  There are thousands of cases where homeowners successfully defended their homes.

And there's also plenty of cases where howe owners have accidentally shot their children or spouses when they were surprised by them

Gun bans do not reduce gun crimes.  Chicago has one of the most strictest gun laws.  Yet there are more people die from gun violence than American troops in Afghanistan.

Again, if more lawful citizens would be proficient in carrying handguns these morons would not stand a chance.  Carrying a concealed gun is not like carrying a cell phone.  It requires some serious training.

I cannot imagine myself living in such a constant state of fear that I would justify spending a large load of money on a weapon that I might never use, required training, had to be lugged everywhere with me, kept away from some other idiot who might want to steal it from me and turn it on me....

Reminds me of the guys who spend countless hours getting the sh#t beat out of them learning martial arts just so someone won't ever kick sand in their face again.

[TylerDurden]

You've really damaged your POV by citing the police as being incompetent with the above article. The whole libertarian stance is that authorities are by their very nature bunglers, incompetents etc. and that therefore gun-ownership and other powers should be handed over to (responsible) individual citizens.

The claim that criminals don't have guns in societies which officially ban guns is a joke. I remember reading one article about a journalist who, just by casually asking around in the more seedy London pubs, got hold of a working pistol within a lot less than 24 hours. It's so easy nowadays as guns are allowed to be sold if they have a metal stopper blocking the barrel, but anyone with mechanical engineering knowledge of the basest sort can remove them.

Also, re the previous point:- no matter how well-planned a teenager shooting-spree may be(most are ill-planned due to hormonal issues), the element of surprise goes after the first shot. After that, a mass shooting spree is unlikely with teachers all over armed to the teeth.

[raw-al]

You've really damaged your POV by citing the police as being incompetent with the above article. The whole libertarian stance is that authorities are by their very nature bunglers, incompetents etc. and that therefore gun-ownership and other powers should be handed over to (responsible) individual citizens.

The claim that criminals don't have guns in societies which officially ban guns is a joke. I remember reading one article about a journalist who, just by casually asking around in the more seedy London pubs, got hold of a working pistol within a lot less than 24 hours. It's so easy nowadays as guns are allowed to be sold if they have a metal stopper blocking the barrel, but anyone with mechanical engineering knowledge of the basest sort can remove them.

Also, re the previous point:- no matter how well-planned a teenager shooting-spree may be(most are ill-planned due to hormonal issues), the element of surprise goes after the first shot. After that, a mass shooting spree is unlikely with teachers all over armed to the teeth.

I remember the storm of protest when Police were granted guns. They have to carry them in the trunk of their cars.

No offence intended to the rest, but I wouldn't want to depend on some of the cops I know to be in charge of saving my life.

[Inger]

My husband got shot right through his heart at 7 PM in a street in Hamburg (Germany).. one year after we married. He survived but the absolute wonderful surgeon who operated on him for 7 hours said it was a complete wonder he did not die. My husband was unarmed, and the man that shoot him was a drug abuser.. My (ex)husband is an animal for sure. He was close to death so many times. He is a Jew, maybe that explains some..

Video games do destroy young people (and old too). It is just, it affects the broken ones the most for sure.
And because of modern  lifestyle, there are more and more broken people. Heavily broken.