Author Topic: Extraterrestrial races  (Read 25692 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline majormark

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Extraterrestrial races
« on: January 05, 2013, 02:08:58 am »
Hello,

What's your understanding/ idea of the subject of extraterrestrial life?

I used to think that, while extraterrestrial life can exist and some ufo's seen may have been real, they were probably
just passing by earth and were more like "look at those primitives, let's go to a planet that is more cool".

After I checked out some of Bashar's videos, it seems to be an ongoing communication between us and them through
certain individuals with the scope of helping us evolve.
Bashar seems to be standing out because his message is right up with the most inspirational thinkers of our time.
A guy named Darryl Anka says he is channeling this being through telepathy since 25 years or so.

Well, regardless of the accuracy of his description, the messages are really empowering.

Some examples (of many on youtube):

Bashar on surrender, excitement and anxiety

BASHAR - Deplasare Prin Infinit (Shifting Through Infinity) 1 [RO]

He also talks about a natural diet and detox here:
BASHAR - Circuite Sacre (Sacred Circuits) 2 [RO]
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 02:44:36 am by TylerDurden »

Offline LePatron7

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,672
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 02:12:38 am »
I think humans are a product of faulty evolution through VERY poor dietary choices.

Ie. the more we've changed our diet and made it worse, the more we've improperly evolved.

I think the belief that extraterrestrials exist, ie. species that are similar to us in that they travel the stars, build things, etc. Is just to comfort humans and not make them feel like they're the only species of their kind.

I think most animals thoroughly enjoy that incredible health, and illness free lives they experience from their natural diets and lifestyles.

While I think there are animals on other planets, ie. other planets with life on them. I don't think there are other species similar to humans out there.
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 02:45:38 am »
Any ETs who investigated us would have wiped us out ages ago. So the notion that ETs exist is absurd.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Alive

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 04:19:14 am »
There are likely large numbers of intelligent ETs throughout the universe, that hopefully are also unable to travel such immense distances safely and afford-ably.

Offline LePatron7

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,672
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 04:21:03 am »
There are likely large numbers of intelligent ETs throughout the universe, that hopefully are also unable to travel such immense distances safely and afford-ably.

I've never understood this logic.

On this planet, where there are countless different species. There is only ONE species like humans. In my opinion that makes the odds of other planets having life with species like humans very unlikely.

Animals seem very uninterested in clothes, technology, and exploring the universe. Which are all human traits. Makes me think humans are a one of a kind species.
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 05:03:03 am »
Any ETs who investigated us would have wiped us out ages ago. So the notion that ETs exist is absurd.
I don’t think it’s so simple and plain, Tyler. One could well say the opposite: the notion that we are the most advanced species in the Galaxy is anthropocentric and absurd. It’s funny because this article was just published yesterday:
Planets Abound: Astronomers Estimate That at Least 100 Billion Planets Populate the Galaxy
Even if one out of a hundred planets has currently life on it , that leaves an order of magnitude of one billion planets with some form of life in our Galaxy only. If life tends to evolve  in a similar, negentropic way all over the Universe, which is likely, and if again only one out of hundred of those planets with life on it saw the emergence of intelligent beings, there could well have been more than one million societies of intelligent beings in the Galaxy. Few galactic societies would survive the mastery of fire and subsequent technologies, destroying their environment and thus self destroying themselves before being able to master interstellar travel. That would be a kind of “galactic selection”
(Cosmology: The Science of the Universe - Page 547 – )
ensuring that intelligent but destructive beings would self destroy in their “planet test tube” before being able to spread havoc elsewhere in their galaxy. So, the ones who could survive and master interstellar travel would not be destructive.

What would be their strategy? See Deardorff, J. W., Possible extraterrestrial strategy for earth, Royal Astronomical Society, Quarterly Journal (ISSN 0035-8738), vol. 27, March 1986, p. 94-101.
Quote
Numerous studies of the past two decades have affirmed the likelihood
that many advanced extraterrestrial races or civilisations abound
within our own galaxy not to mention the neighbouring galaxies and the
rest of the universe. Through use of Drake’s equation the number of
planets within our own galaxy so inhabited, N, is usually placed in
the vicinity of 106, give or take a couple of orders of magnitude. The
extraterrestrials would presumably be advanced over us technologically
by anywhere from just a few thousand years to hundreds of millions of
years.
 It has also been deduced with considerable agreement amongst
different investigators that the time for any one such race to
colonise all the hospitable planets in the galaxy is only of the order
of 100 million years or less based upon their travelling at speeds of
the order of 1 per cent of the speed of light, and assuming they would
spend a few thousand years consolidating each new planet before
setting out for the next. Even if the only motivation for migration
were to escape the fate of the parent star leaving the main sequence,
as many as 0.1 N extraterrestrial races are expected to have done this
by now. Thus, the chance that our ‘corner’ of the galaxy somehow
escaped the attention of advance extraterrestrial races be considered
very remote, assuming they exist.
At the same time it has of course been realised that no
extraterrestrial presence or communication has been detected through
radio-telescope searches or other astronomical means. This fact has
often led to the conclusion that mankind is unique within the galaxy
as a thinking being capable of pondering its own existence and
technologically able to explore its own Solar system and beyond. That
conclusion has been bolstered by studies which indicate the huge
improbability that life could have started [spontaneously]; ie. That
the necessary amino acids could ever have arranged themselves in just
the right way at the right time so as to make an aggregate of enzymes
capable of self-replication. This reasoning says, then, that life on
Earth,and mankind, is just a statistical fluke which by all odds
should not have happened, snd could thus be unique.
However, the above two arguments on uniqueness are usually rejected on
the grounds that the first life on  Earth is kown to have started
after only a few hundred million years following Earth’s formation.
Since it did not wait a few thousand million years to start, there is
no indication that the initiation of life is a rare event relative to (…)
That whole paper is well thought and very interesting, as well as Harrison's book "Cosmology: The Science of the Universe" in my second link above.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:42:56 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2013, 05:48:57 am »
On this planet, where there are countless different species. There is only ONE species like humans. In my opinion that makes the odds of other planets having life with species like humans very unlikely.

Chimps and especially bonobos are very much like us. Let them a million more years and they may master the fire. They already use tools.

Quote
Animals seem very uninterested in clothes, technology, and exploring the universe. Which are all human traits. Makes me think humans are a one of a kind species.

Our Homo Erectus ancestors and such were not really interested in clothes, automotive technology and exploring the Galaxy either.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 05:58:14 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline LePatron7

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,672
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2013, 06:54:18 am »
Chimps and especially bonobos are very much like us. Let them a million more years and they may master the fire. They already use tools.

Our Homo Erectus ancestors and such were not really interested in clothes, automotive technology and exploring the Galaxy either.  ;)

I still don't see mastering fire for use in cooking as beneficial, and I feel it would lead to "unevolving," even for chimps and bonobos.
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline Wattlebird

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 152
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 06:54:53 am »
for what its worth,
visions of (and encounters with)  alien or extra-terrestrial beings are commonplace during shamanic journeying and stages of kundalini awakening.
How we define  'real' or 'not-real'  is dependent on perception.
And individual perception - depending on all manner of factors (trance, entheogens, meditative techniques, fasting, neurological 'abnormalites'  including so called 'awakening', solitude, nature, etc, etc) -can morph and encompass 'realities' that from other perspectives, seem quite impossible, even nonsensical.






« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 07:16:00 am by Wattlebird »

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,830
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 07:16:47 am »
Any ETs who investigated us would have wiped us out ages ago. So the notion that ETs exist is absurd.

Come on Tyler.  With 100 billion planets in this galaxy alone?  It's all a matter of time and chance.
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2013, 08:21:22 am »
Come on Tyler.  With 100 billion planets in this galaxy alone?  It's all a matter of time and chance.

Yes.  If faster-than-light travel is not possible, then the odds are that no race would bother to investigate us.  It would be too far, and take up too much time.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2013, 03:40:14 pm »
I still don't see mastering fire for use in cooking as beneficial, and I feel it would lead to "unevolving," even for chimps and bonobos.

Yes, using fire for cooking is certainly a mistake. But on the other hand it’s not possible to use and develop metal working technologies without fire.

That’s interesting because it shows that notions of good and evil are relative.

How we define  'real' or 'not-real'  is dependent on perception.
And individual perception - depending on all manner of factors (trance, entheogens, meditative techniques, fasting, neurological 'abnormalites'  including so called 'awakening', solitude, nature, etc, etc) -can morph and encompass 'realities' that from other perspectives, seem quite impossible, even nonsensical.

Yes!

  If faster-than-light travel is not possible, then the odds are that no race would bother to investigate us.  It would be too far, and take up too much time.

It’s certainly impossible to travel faster than light, but this doesn’t preclude other ways of interstellar travel than going straight through the space-time as we think we know it. Our knowledge is extremely poor, limited, fragmentary and in constant evolution. 

We can always guess things according to such current theoretical knowledge, but then the odds to be wrong are immense. It’s just the same in dietary science.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline majormark

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 05:51:25 pm »
...
It’s certainly impossible to travel faster than light, but this doesn’t preclude other ways of interstellar travel than going straight through the space-time as we think we know it. Our knowledge is extremely poor, limited, fragmentary and in constant evolution. 

We can always guess things according to such current theoretical knowledge, but then the odds to be wrong are immense. It’s just the same in dietary science.

Interestingly, Bashar also explains the idea of teleportation and how it's done:

Bashar: Teleportation

I think the scientists also managed to teleport some photons a while ago.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 06:09:38 pm »
Re the above claims:- Yes, in recent times, a claim of 100 billion planets in our galaxy has been made. However, most of those planets are around red dwarf stars which give off very little heat. To be near enough to get enough heat(ie the habitable zone), they generally end up tidally-locked so that one half of the planet  always faces the sun. Currently, only yellow or orange stars are considered remotely likely candidates for producing life-bearing planets. Other stars are too big and thus have too low a life-span.

Obviously, without faster than light travel, no aliens could visit us, so the issue of aliens would be irrelevant in that case. If FTL travel existed, then the prime motivation for exploration, as with humans, would be to colonise other lands(ie planets in this case). Therefore, we humans would get put into reservations, just like before. The only way out would be if one believed in transhumanism, in which case it might be possible that aliens might migrate to other more interesting dimensions as soon as they could, thus not needing to explore their  own current dimension.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 09:22:24 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 07:44:26 pm »
Quote
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130103143422.htm The fact that the planets in M-dwarf systems are so close to their stars doesn't necessarily mean that they're fiery, hellish worlds unsuitable for life, the astronomers say. Indeed, because M dwarfs are small and cool, their temperate zone -- also known as the "habitable zone," the region where liquid water might exist -- is also further inward. Even though only the outermost of Kepler-32's five planets lies in its temperate zone, many other M dwarf systems have more planets that sit right in their temperate zones.
Let it be one out of 1000 or even out of 10,000 instead of one out of 100 if you prefer. Still there could have been more than 100,000 or perhaps only 10,000 societies of intelligent beings in the Galaxy.

Quote
Obviously, without faster than light travel, no aliens could visit us, so the issue of aliens would be irrelevant in that case. if FTL travel existed, then the prime motivation for exploration, as with humans, would be to colonise other lands(ie planets in this case). Therefore, we humans would get put into reservations, just like before.
These are inference from our current limited knowledge and ways of thinking. What do we know of the possible motivations of intelligent beings having a rearing of a million years or more of scientific and technological development?

Quote
The only way out would be if one believed in transhumanism, in which case it might be possible that aliens might migrate to other more interesting dimensions as soon as they could, thus not needing to explore their  own current dimension.
There could well be other ways too!

Wouldn’t it be preferable to remain to the facts, to learn about them and to investigate them instead of wandering into mental speculations?

Majormark, I listened a bit to this “Bashar” I had never heard of before. He’s funny but does he really bring something new and practically valuable? How to better practice raw paleo nutrition, for example? There have been plenty of such people pretending to have been somehow in contact with ET’s, but up to now the only result has been to discredit the UFO’s extraterrestrial origin hypothesis.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 07:50:58 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2013, 09:40:44 pm »
The problem you face is the unsolvable Fermi paradox which states "if aliens really do exist, why then haven't we encountered the aliens"? The issue of number of planets is a bit dodgy. For one thing, no other planet in our own solar system has demonstrated life, plus most planets will be extrasolar, according to reports - not much chance of life evolving on planets without stars close by. Then there's the lifespan of an alien species or civilisation. Many sentient alien species may have died out long ago.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,830
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2013, 10:17:26 pm »
Maybe there are ways to travel faster than light...
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2013, 10:43:28 pm »
The problem you face is the unsolvable Fermi paradox which states "if aliens really do exist, why then haven't we encountered the aliens"? The issue of number of planets is a bit dodgy. For one thing, no other planet in our own solar system has demonstrated life, plus most planets will be extrasolar, according to reports - not much chance of life evolving on planets without stars close by. Then there's the lifespan of an alien species or civilisation. Many sentient alien species may have died out long ago.
Our solar system has only 8 planets and one of those eight has life and moreover a technological civilization. That’s much more than one out of a thousand!

A planet is necessarily orbiting a star, otherwise it’s not a planet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet
Quote
A planet is an astronomical object orbiting a star or stellar remnant that is massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity, is not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion, and has cleared its neighbouring region of planetesimals.
Arguments about the Fermi paradox are interesting. See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#Alien_constructs
and particularly this last possibility :
Quote
They are here unobserved

It may be that intelligent alien life forms not only exist, but are already present here on Earth. They are not detected because they do not wish it, human beings are technically unable to, or because societies refuse to admit to the evidence.[97] Several variations of this idea have been proposed:

Carl Sagan and Iosif Shklovsky[98] argued for serious consideration of "paleocontact" with extraterrestrials in the early historical era, and for examination of myths and religious lore for evidence of such contact. Sagan and Shklovsky noted that many or most religions were founded by men who claimed contact with supernatural entities who bestowed wisdom, guidance and technology, citing the fish-god Oannes as a particularly salient example.

It is possible that a life form technologically advanced enough to travel to Earth might also be sufficiently advanced to exist here undetected. In this view, the aliens have arrived on Earth, or in our solar system, and are observing the planet, while concealing their presence. Observation could conceivably be conducted in a number of ways that would be very difficult to detect. For example, a complex system of microscopic monitoring devices constructed via molecular nanotechnology could be deployed on Earth and remain undetected, or sophisticated instruments could conduct passive monitoring from elsewhere while concealing themselves with stealth technologies that need not be much more advanced than current terrestrial ones.

UFO researchers note that the Fermi Paradox arose within the context of a wave of UFO reports, yet Fermi, Teller, York and Konopinski apparently dismissed the possibility that flying saucers might be extraterrestrial – despite contemporary US Air Force investigations that judged a small portion of UFO reports as inexplicable by contemporary technology. (Mainstream scientific publications have occasionally addressed the possibility of extraterrestrial contact,[99] but the scientific community in general has given little serious attention to claims of unidentified flying objects.) Given that UFO investigators argue compelling evidence supports the reality of UFOs as anomalies, but that extant UFO evidence does not support an extraterrestrial origin, it is suggested that closer examination of UFO data may confirm or falsify the Fermi paradox and/or the extraterrestrial hypothesis of UFO origins: "Any refusal of interest [by mainstream scientists] in investigating the UFO phenomenon, using an ETI [extraterrestrial intelligence] concept as one working hypothesis, should surely be astonishing."[100]

This extraterrestrial hypothesis was jokingly suggested in response to Fermi's paradox by his fellow physicist, Leó Szilárd, who suggested to Fermi that extraterrestrials "are already among us—but they call themselves Hungarians",[101][102] a humorous reference to the peculiar Hungarian language, unrelated to most other languages spoken in Europe.[101]  :)

« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 10:56:12 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2013, 10:44:06 pm »
Maybe there are ways to travel faster than light...

I hope so. Einstein has already been proved to have been a plagiarist , and many scientists have subsequently been ridiculed in the past for claiming that flight or spaceflight would never be possible, so FTL travel might very well happen in the end. Though probably only nonorganic life(ie artificial intelligence) will ever  actually achieve it.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 10:54:31 pm »
Maybe there are ways to travel faster than light...
Faster than light is theoretically impossible and the theory has been proved right. But the Universe is still full of mysteries for us and there could well be other possibilities for interstellar travel than traveling straight through the space-time as we currently know it.   
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2013, 10:56:23 pm »
Our solar system has only 8 planets and one of those eight has life and moreover a technological civilization. That’s much more than one out of a thousand!

You clearly are a believer in the anthropic principle:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

However, the theory has a lot of inherent flaws:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle#Criticisms
Quote
A planet is necessarily orbiting a star, otherwise it’s not a planet:
This is quibbling. The actual scientific term for  planets which don't orbit stars  is "rogue planet":-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_planet


The notion of concealment is a bit unlikely. I could understand concealment being needed in order to defend against alien technologies of a similiar calibre, but not being any point when encountering sentient species with very backward technology. Also, no matter how alien, increased technology implies more control of the environment, such as the "grey goo" theory where nanobots take over the world etc. To give an analogy, let's say we humans were the equivalent of "shore-slime" to the aliens, then, even if they were so advanced that they and we were not really aware of each other, then the "shore-slime"/humanity would still be just as badly affected as modern shore-slime/bacteria is affected by humanity in the form of pollution etc.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:44:52 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2013, 01:39:27 am »
You clearly are a believer in the anthropic principle:-
Oh no: I avoid beliefs! I don’t know if the anthropic principle is right or wrong, I just meant to show that your argument (about the fact that our solar system has only one planet with life on it) doesn’t prove anything.

Oh, yeah “rogue planets”, I’ve seen this name appear for the first time a few months ago. I didn’t know that such objects exist until very recently.

Quote
The notion of concealment is a bit unlikely. I could understand concealment being needed in order to defend against alien technologies of a similiar calibre, but not being any point when encountering sentient species with very backward technology. Also, no matter how alien, increased technology implies more control of the environment, such as the "grey goo" theory where nanobots take over the world etc. To give an analogy, let's say we humans were the equivalent of "shore-slime" to the aliens, then, even if they were so advanced that they and we were not really aware of each other, then the "shore-slime"/humanity would still be just as badly affected as modern shore-slime/bacteria is affected by humanity in the form of pollution etc.
I’m not sure I properly understand since my English knowledge is limited. Concealment is certainly in our favor because an open cultural contact (even peaceful) with an much more advanced alien civilization would deeply disturb or even destroy ours. And the best way to observe is by avoiding to disturb the observed entity, or just slightly disturb it to study the reaction. See Deardorff”s paper linked here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/extraterrestrial-races/msg104108/#msg104108


Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2013, 02:12:46 am »
Oh no: I avoid beliefs! I don’t know if the anthropic principle is right or wrong, I just meant to show that your argument (about the fact that our solar system has only one planet with life on it) doesn’t prove anything.

You're missing the point. The very fact that our solar system has one planet with life  on it does not support your argument either. As I showed, it is completely irrelevant, altogether.



Quote
I’m not sure I properly understand since my English knowledge is limited. Concealment is certainly in our favor because an open cultural contact (even peaceful) with an much more advanced alien civilization would deeply disturb or even destroy ours. And the best way to observe is by avoiding to disturb the observed entity, or just slightly disturb it to study the reaction. See Deardorff”s paper linked here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/extraterrestrial-races/msg104108/#msg104108
  Again, you are making a false assumption. All evidence, so far, is that when any species gains more and more control over its environment, whether via increased intelligence or some other means, it goes on to destroy surrounding species, or at least seriously harm them, depending on ability. Simply put, increased technology does not by any means imply increased morality.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2013, 03:58:28 am »

  Again, you are making a false assumption. All evidence, so far, is that when any species gains more and more control over its environment, whether via increased intelligence or some other means, it goes on to destroy surrounding species, or at least seriously harm them, depending on ability. Simply put, increased technology does not by any means imply increased morality.

The birth rate has dropped precipitously in developed countries.  Who's to say this trend won't continue, as our life spans and health get better and better?  And if the birth rate drops to near zero, we wouldn't need to conquer other planets.

I imagine aliens would be in much the same situation.

Offline Iguana

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,049
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Extraterrestrial races
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2013, 04:20:25 am »
You're missing the point. The very fact that our solar system has one planet with life  on it does not support your argument either. As I showed, it is completely irrelevant, altogether.
Yeah, this doesn’t support my argument but it doesn’t support yours any better. By the way, what is exactly your argument? That no aliens are here around? That there’s no way any ET could have ever reached Earth? I’m just asking, to make things clear.

Quote
Again, you are making a false assumption. All evidence, so far, is that when any species gains more and more control over its environment, whether via increased intelligence or some other means, it goes on to destroy surrounding species, or at least seriously harm them, depending on ability. Simply put, increased technology does not by any means imply increased morality.

Of course, that’s what happens on our planet. That’s exactly the point discussed in the link I already gave:
Quote
(Cosmology: The Science of the Universe - Page 547 – )


Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk