fat/oil promotes aging?

[Joy2012]

http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf

Many on this forum promote a high-fat diet. Is fat really good for health and anti-aging?

Any food item which contains some fat has an extremely high amount of AGEs. Fresh fruit and almost-fat-free vegetables (when not cooked with fat) contain very low AGEs.

Following is a sample of AGE contents in foods (KU per 100 grams) taken from the above website. From this sample it can be seen: Yes cooking increases AGEs, but food items containing some fat are the most AGE-rich food, even in their raw state.

Apple (AGE content is 13)
Avocado (1577)
Banana (9)
Cantaloupe (20)
Dates (60)
Carrots (10)
Celery (43)
Cucumber (31)
Olives (1670)
Onion (36)
Tomato (23)
Grilled vegetables (broccoli, carrots, celery) (226)
Raw beef (707)
Roast beef (6071)
Broiled beef steak (7479)
Raw pork chop (1188)
Pan fried pork chop (4752)
Raw lamb (826)
Broiled lamb leg (1218)
Raw chicken breast (769)
Chicken breast boiled with lemon (1123)
Deep fried chicken breast (9722)
Raw trout (783)
Raw shrimp (1003)
Salmon poached for 7 minutes (1801)
Poached eggs (90)

Omelet (olive oil, low heat) (339)
Butter (23340)
Parmesan cheese (16900)
Philadelphia cream cheese (10883)
Brie cheese (5597)
Mozzarella cheese (1677)
Raw cashews (2723)
Raw pumpkin seeds (1853)
Raw sunflower seeds (2510)
Broiled beef frankfurter (11270)
Mayonnaise (9400)
Potato chips (2883)
Extra virgin olive oil (10040)
Vinegar (40)
Bagel, small, Lender’s (133)
Bagel, large (107)
Biscuit (Mc Donald’sd) (1,470)
Bread, whole wheat, slice, toasted, slice, (Rockland Bakery) (137)
Croissant, butter (Starbucks, Seattle, WA) (1,113)
Roll, dinner, inside (23)
Roll, dinner, outside 77
Potato, white, boiled 25 min (17 )
Potato, white, roasted 45 min, with 5 mL oil/servingc (218)
Potato, white, french fries (McDonald’sd) (1,522)
Coconut cream, Coco Goya cream of coconut (Goya, Secaucus, NJ) (933)
Coconut milk, leche de coco, (Goya) (307)
Coconut, Baker’s Angel Flake, sweetened (Kraft) (590)
Shrimp, fried, breaded (take out) (4,328)
Shrimp, marinated rawb (1,003)
Shrimp, marinated, grilled on BBQb (2,089)
Tuna, broiled, with soy, 10 min (5,113)
Tuna, broiled, with vinegar dressing (5,150)
Tuna, fresh, baked, 25 min (919)
Tuna, loaf (chunk light in recipe), baked 40 min (590)
Tuna, canned, chunk light, w/water (452)
Tuna, canned, white, albacore, w/oil (1,740)


"The current dAGE database demonstrates that a significantly
reduced intake of dAGEs can be achieved by
increasing the consumption of fish, legumes, low-fat milk
products, vegetables, fruits, and whole grains and by
reducing intake of solid fats, fatty meats, full-fat dairy
products, and highly processed foods. These guidelines
are consistent with recommendations by organizations
such as the American Heart Association (42), the American
Institute for Cancer Research (43), and the American
Diabetes Association (44)." (taken from the above website)

[TylerDurden]

Because AGEs are involved in even the slightest inflammation,  they are found in tiny amounts in even the healthiest foods. They will be found in much higher amounts in foods raised in an unhealthy way, such as grainfed meats, so we really need to know if the foods were raised via intensive farming etc. Cooking, of course, makes things even worse re AGE levels.

The human body, incidentally, does have the ability to get rid of the very small amounts of AGEs gained via a very healthy diet, but can't handle a lot of them.

[Joy2012]

Tyler, Thanks for your response.

I think TUNA is always wild-caught. So we could look at TUNA as an example.

Tuna, fresh, baked, 25 min (919)
Tuna, loaf (chunk light in recipe), baked 40 min (590)
Tuna, canned, chunk light, w/water (452)
Tuna, canned, white, albacore, w/oil (1,740)

Chunk light Tuna has less fat than "fresh tuna" (which I suppose means whole tuna),  right? So it has less AGEs than "fresh tuna."  Still, Tuna's AGE is far more than fat-free fruit and vegetables.

I would suppose that the fruit and vegetables on this AGE list are common supermarket ones, i.e., "raised via intensive farming."  So I think it is fair to compare the fruit/vegetables with the meats/seafood on this AGE list.

I am not trying to pick bones. I really want to find out the answer concerng fat. After transferring from a mostly-vegan little-fat diet to a RP diet of much fat(mostly coconut oil but also animal fat and sesame seeds/walnuts) and animal protein for  a year, I think I age more. First wrinkles appear on my forehead.       Of course I am one year older than I was. But I never noticed that one year could age me so much. So I would like to try to find out whether much fat is really good.

[Iguana]

Our alimentary instinct limits the amount of fat we can eat and regulates it properly according to our individual and momentary needs. 

[TylerDurden]

Actually, tuna is increasingly farmed.

It is true that AGEs occur more frequently in animal foods but  they are always much lower in quantity in raw animal foods from animals raised on very healthy diets.

[van]

Joy, as regards to wrinkles and aging.  I wonder if you've lost any excess weight while eating paleo...  If so the weight/fat will also have come off of the face as well, and contribute to the skin showing existing wrinkles.  Many women and men as they age really look older in the face if they should lose weight.

[Projectile Vomit]

While animal foods often have higher AGE content by mass, they're also far more calorie dense than plant foods. I wonder if you calculated AGE content for plant foods versus animal foods by bioavailable calorie if the difference would remain as stark? And Geoff's comments are smart regarding whether the animal was raised on a healthy diet versus a diet that causes a system-wide inflammatory response (as with grain feeding ruminants), so I'm not sure how heavily to weight the animal food numbers noted above.

[eveheart]

I am not trying to pick bones. I really want to find out the answer concerning fat. After transferring from a mostly-vegan little-fat diet to a RP diet of much fat(mostly coconut oil but also animal fat and sesame seeds/walnuts) and animal protein for  a year, I think I age more. First wrinkles appear on my forehead.       Of course I am one year older than I was. But I never noticed that one year could age me so much. So I would like to try to find out whether much fat is really good.

I am in my 60s, so I read your post from two perspectives: a wrinkle perspective and a fats perspective. True, I don't know your age, but if you are around my age, there is an undeniable transformation going on. I think of it as the change in an apple when it goes from its tart, green, underripe stage to its sweet, fragrant, wise, mature stage. Wrinkles can make you look better, or they can make you look worse. I am convince that our attitudes about life determine the way our wrinkles set. Friendliness, patience, optimism, lovingkindness, and self-forgetfulness* produce sweet-looking wrinkles. Anger, worry, irritation, pessimism, intolerance, and looking at yourself too much create sour-looking wrinkles. You will know which kind of wrinkles you have because sweet-looking wrinkles make people smile spontaneously at you, while sour-looking wrinkles do not elicit smiles.

Now, for the fats perspective, I would recommend eating unprocessed fats only. Extracted oils, even when cold-extracted, are not a whole food. In addition, I would advise against following guidelines set by the US government and espoused by organizations such as the American Heart Association, the American Institute for Cancer  Research, and the American Diabetes Association. A full explanation of my reasoning can be found in the writings of Gary Taubes.

*Self-forgetfulness here means paying attention to your purpose in life; asking not what life can do for your, rather asking what you can do for life.

[TylerDurden]

Joy, as regards to wrinkles and aging.  I wonder if you've lost any excess weight while eating paleo...  If so the weight/fat will also have come off of the face as well, and contribute to the skin showing existing wrinkles.  Many women and men as they age really look older in the face if they should lose weight.

  Ah, yes. I was once amazed to learn that there were a number of men interested in "BBWs"(Big Beautiful Women). Turns out that the  extra fat-layers of these large women  help smooth their skin so that wrinkles don't show and they look younger than slimmer women(past a certain age).

[jessica]

i think circulation, breathing, proper lympahtic drainage and an overall healthful balanced diet, life and attitude contribute a lot to healthy skin.  saunas alternating with cold dunks are excellent to get blood flowing into every last vein in the body, same with proper exercise which helps to promote oxigenation, livening up of the skin and clearing of the blood.  also lymphatic drainage, which can be aided by certain stretches/yoga poses, skin brushing, and also rebounding (or jump roping, jumping jacks, trail running, regular running).  i have to say the more animal products i consume the better my skin becomes, this means less veggies, low carb (50 g max in my case) and lots of broth and fats.  i think its easy to see from the information about AGES that conventional cooked animal products way high on the list, but i tend to think that there are nutrients enough in raw well raised animal products that probably make up for any AGES

[Iguana]

On that list, the dairy products have the most AGEs.

But I'm astonished that avocados have quite some (1577) . I suspect that avocados from South Africa and Israel are irradiated and I never buy them. It could perhaps be a reason for the presence of these AGEs in them.

As for raw cashews (2723), raw pumpkin seeds (1853) and raw sunflower seeds (2510)  I wonder if the ones tested were really raw because commercial ones are likely to have been heated, especially cashew nuts which are systematically hot (flame) shelled . Commercial olives (1670) are processed.

[jessica]

joy are you properly hydrated? do you get enough trace minerals?  do you drink broth?  wrinkly forehead is more likely due to these factors and also that you are not getting enough saturated fats if you are sticking to vegan raw paleo.......try egg yolks, raw cream or butter, or raw cuts of fat from grassfed/patured animals if you can.  also try gelatin in your broth to add complimentary amino acids, dandelion root tea also helps with proper hydration.  i am certain you will see a huge improvement in your skin tone.

[Joy2012]

Thanks to all who responded.

Joy, as regards to wrinkles and aging.  I wonder if you've lost any excess weight while eating paleo...  If so the weight/fat will also have come off of the face as well, and contribute to the skin showing existing wrinkles.  Many women and men as they age really look older in the face if they should lose weight.

No I have not lost any weight. I am a small woman and do not need to lose weight.
I do take in more calories while eating RP low-carb. But I like fruit and I miss fruit  while doing low-carb.

On that list, the dairy products have the most AGEs.

But I'm astonished that avocados have quite some (1577) . I suspect that avocados from South Africa and Israel are irradiated and I never buy them. It could perhaps be a reason for the presence of these AGEs in them.

As for raw cashews (2723), raw pumpkin seeds (1853) and raw sunflower seeds (2510)  I wonder if the ones tested were really raw because commercial ones are likely to have been heated, especially cashew nuts which are systematically hot (flame) shelled . Commercial olives (1670) are processed.

My guess is that these items have high AGEs because they contain a large amount of fat/oil.

While animal foods often have higher AGE content by mass, they're also far more calorie dense than plant foods. I wonder if you calculated AGE content for plant foods versus animal foods by bioavailable calorie if the difference would remain as stark?

A sensible suggestion. So I did the math.
AGE content is 13 ku in 100g of apples.
AGE content is 23340 ku  in 100g of butter.
AGE content is 10040 ku  in 100g of extra virgin olive oil.
AGE content is 1003 ku in 100g of  raw shrimps.
http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf

100g apple has 52 calories.
100g butter has 717 calories.
100g olive oil has 884 calories
100g shrimps have 106 calories
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4172/2

Now let us raise all food items to 884 calories. And the result is:

100g olive oil has 884 calories and contains 10040 ku of AGE.
1700g apples has 884 calories and contains 221 ku of AGE.
 (approximately) 123g butter has 884 calories and contains 28780 ku of AGE.
(approximately) 834g shrimps have 884 calories and contain 8365 ku of AGE.

Now my math was done by a pencil and my brain, not by a calculater. So do not expect me to be exact. But one gets an idea from the result. There IS a stark difference.

And Geoff's comments are smart regarding whether the animal was raised on a healthy diet versus a diet that causes a system-wide inflammatory response (as with grain feeding ruminants), so I'm not sure how heavily to weight the animal food numbers noted above.

My guess is that the fruit/vegetables used in the research are also supermarket types, raised by unhealthful farming methods. So I think it is fair to compare their AGEs with the AGEs of animal products.

Now, for the fats perspective, I would recommend eating unprocessed fats only. Extracted oils, even when cold-extracted, are not a whole food. In addition, I would advise against following guidelines set by the US government and espoused by organizations such as the American Heart Association, the American Institute for Cancer  Research, and the American Diabetes Association. A full explanation of my reasoning can be found in the writings of Gary Taubes.

Quite a few people on this forum say cocaonut oil is good though.  I know coconut oil/cream is very stable even at high temperature.

What is the reason we should dismiss the advice of organizations such as the American Heart Association, the American Institute for Cancer  Research, and the American Diabetes Association? Their advice is based on scientific research.

joy are you properly hydrated? do you get enough trace minerals?  do you drink broth?  wrinkly forehead is more likely due to these factors and also that you are not getting enough saturated fats if you are sticking to vegan raw paleo.......try egg yolks, raw cream or butter, or raw cuts of fat from grassfed/patured animals if you can.  also try gelatin in your broth to add complimentary amino acids, dandelion root tea also helps with proper hydration.  i am certain you will see a huge improvement in your skin tone.

Jessica, I will take your advice about sauna (steambath is what I do), deep breathing, stretching, skin brush, egg yokes. I may not be properly hydrated since I went RP low-carb. (During my nearly-vegan days I did not have to worry about hydration of course, due to the large amount of fruit I took in.)
What broth do you drink? Isn't broth cooked?

Actually, tuna is increasingly farmed.

This could mean that there will be less competition for wild-caught tuna, right?

Our alimentary instinct limits the amount of fat we can eat and regulates it properly according to our individual and momentary needs. 

I am starting to think I should just go instincto and forget about all diet theories. But then there is the problem of overly sweet modern fruit which may induce overeating of fruit...

[TylerDurden]

The reason why those aforementioned items have high AGEs has nothing whatsoever to do with them having high fats/oils, it has to do with them being very heavily processed.

Comparing intensively-farmed plant foods to intensively-farmed animal foods is not appropriate. After all,  animals are more complex creatures than plants  plus feeding unhealthy foods to animals cannot really be compared to feeding the usual to plants(ie water, sunlight). The only unnatural substances plants get are  fertilisers and insecticides.

[FlyingDutchwoman]

Don't the Masai tribesmen age rapidly?

[cherimoya_kid]

Joy, you need to compare 100 calories of fruit to 100 calories of fat. Apples are about 95% water.  This will show you that the difference in AGEs is not that large.

As far as aging and fat go, just look at Doug Graham and Durian Rider.

Also, haven't you been eating a lot of grainfed meat this last year, and cooked food as well?

[jessica]

joy, broth IS cooked, but there are supposedly ways you can make "raw broth" you can search for those on the forum.  i liken it to drinking tea.  i have read a lot that with low carb diets its best to get plenty of liquids but to not dilute ones electrolytes, this is why i suggest making a delicious broth seasoned with salty sea vegetables.  glucose is especially good at holding onto water in the body and when you starting running more towards a ketogenic diet you loose the ability to hold so much water in your cells.  also things like dandelion tea is a really great source of potassium, healing to the kidneys, which some medicinal teachings say indicate their health on the forehead.

[eveheart]

What is the reason we should dismiss the advice of organizations such as the American Heart Association, the American Institute for Cancer  Research, and the American Diabetes Association? Their advice is based on scientific research.

Not entirely true. Most of the research by "our" (USA) government and agencies funded by "our" government have experimental faults of various kinds, such as too little duration of experiments, skewed demographics of the test groups, elimination of unfavorable results, etc. The scientific research that you want to rely on also says that grainfed beef is good, genetic modification harmlessly produces better products, raw meat is dangerous, and people should limit fat intake.

Quite a few people on this forum say cocaonut oil is good though.  I know coconut oil/cream is very stable even at high temperature.

Yes, quite a few people on this forum say coconut oil is good, but you miss my point. Coconut oil is a processed fraction of a whole food. Quite a few people on this forum say that it's better to eat a whole food than to eat a processed fraction of a whole food, and I am one of those people.

[LePatron7]

I think all foods contain some AGE's naturally. Even the highest quality of foods will have some AGE's. Although I'm sure as the foods become more "conventional" and/or cooked they get more AGE's.

What is the reason we should dismiss the advice of organizations such as the American Heart Association, the American Institute for Cancer  Research, and the American Diabetes Association? Their advice is based on scientific research.

For one, if those organizations were any good at what they do, or are supposed to do. We wouldn't have sky rocketing levels of diabetes, heart disease, and obesity.

I think the last I heard 1 in 3 will get cancer, 1 in 3 will get diabetes, and 1 in 2 will get heart disease.

The grain based, carb heavy diet recommended to Americans is doing a lot of damage. It's visible by how illnesses that were rare in the 20's, became very common in the 90's. And that now even kids are getting diabetes and other illnesses.

I am starting to think I should just go instincto and forget about all diet theories. But then there is the problem of overly sweet modern fruit which may induce overeating of fruit...

I like that idea. I personally think there's to much emphasis on low carb or zero carb on this forum. It seems like everywhere I look (not just here, but also from SCD'ers), everyone's anticarbs.

But personally I don't buy into instincto. Sure, if there was unlimited of every food, and you could pick and choose which foods you want maybe you'd be able to instinctively know what to eat. Maybe.

But the fact is most wild animals don't have unlimited of every food. They look for food, when they find it, they eat as much as they can.

A wolf doesn't kill an animal then just stop eating, it eats till it's full.

[Joy2012]

Many thanks to all who responded and provided food for thought.

Joy, you need to compare 100 calories of fruit to 100 calories of fat. Apples are about 95% water.  This will show you that the difference in AGEs is not that large.

As far as aging and fat go, just look at Doug Graham and Durian Rider.

CK, I was comparing the food items based on 884 calories of each food item.

100g olive oil has 884 calories and contains 10040 ku of AGE.
1700g apples has 884 calories and contains 221 ku of AGE.
 (approximately) 123g butter has 884 calories and contains 28780 ku of AGE.
(approximately) 834g shrimps have 884 calories and contain 8365 ku of AGE.

Also, haven't you been eating a lot of grainfed meat this last year, and cooked food as well?

Are you confusing me with someone else?
I am basically doing raw paleo using grass-fed beef and wild-caught salmon and wild-caught shrimps, except when I was a guess at my siblings' houses. They are cooked but they also mostly use grass-fed and wild-caught animal foods.
I ate much raw cheese for the first four months of 2012 (I regret that mistake) and I have stayed away from raw dairy since May 2012.

Don't the Masai tribesmen age rapidly?

Will someone reply to this question?

As far as aging and fat go, just look at Doug Graham and Durian Rider.

DG does age behond his age. DR seems OK?

joy, broth IS cooked, but there are supposedly ways you can make "raw broth" you can search for those on the forum.  i liken it to drinking tea.  i have read a lot that with low carb diets its best to get plenty of liquids but to not dilute ones electrolytes, this is why i suggest making a delicious broth seasoned with salty sea vegetables. 

Will you please share one of your favorite recipes?

things like dandelion tea is a really great source of potassium, healing to the kidneys, which some medicinal teachings say indicate their health on the forehead.

So dandelion is good for skin because of its rich potassium?

[cherimoya_kid]

Sorry, Joy, I was confusing you with Suiren.

As far as AGEs go, they aren't the only factor in aging. I don't recommend eating to any extreme, whether low- fat or low-carb or low- protein, etc., because I've seen major problems from some people with all of those.

Durian Rider is already looking pretty weathered, he actually addresses this in some of his videos. In contrast, most raw foodies who don't eat such extreme versions of the diet usually look years younger than their age.

Many thanks to all who responded and provided food for thought.

CK, I was comparing the food items based on 884 calories of each food item.

100g olive oil has 884 calories and contains 10040 ku of AGE.
1700g apples has 884 calories and contains 221 ku of AGE.
 (approximately) 123g butter has 884 calories and contains 28780 ku of AGE.
(approximately) 834g shrimps have 884 calories and contain 8365 ku of AGE.
Are you confusing me with someone else?
I am basically doing raw paleo using grass-fed beef and wild-caught salmon and wild-caught shrimps, except when I was a guess at my siblings' houses. They are cooked but they also mostly use grass-fed and wild-caught animal foods.
I ate much raw cheese for the first four months of 2012 (I regret that mistake) and I have stayed away from raw dairy since May 2012.
Will someone reply to this question?
DG does age behond his age. DR seems OK?

Will you please share one of your favorite recipes?

So dandelion is good for skin because of its rich potassium?

[TylerDurden]

I recall one long-term rawist mentioning that the Instinctos he saw were even healthier and younger-looking than the primal dieters in similiar meetings. I have also heard of many reports by primal dieters that their primal diet gatherings all had multitudes of middle-aged people who looked 10 years younger than SAD-eating contemporaries.


Re DurianRider:- His eating raw may well not help as regards AGEs:-

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/sugar-and-sweeteners/vegetarians-age-faster-2/

[jessica]

joy, dandelion promotes healthy kidneys and liver, its full of potassium and helps to break down uric acid in the body.  i have read that people who are dehydrated, with distressed kidneys, have wrinkles on the forehead as a symptom of those issues, therefore drinking dandelion (root and leave) tea will help to promote healing of the kidneys, hydration and thus healthier skin and less wrinkly forehead

[Joy2012]

Ck, Tyler, Jessica, many thanks.


This statement is in the article Tyler cited: 
"the omnivores (Traditional) actually consumed a little more carb (saccharides) each day than did the vegetarians (Alternative), but not enough to reach significance. What the vegetarians ate more of in significant amounts were fruits and vegetables, giving them a significantly increased intake of fructose....When researchers measured levels of carboxymethyllysine, an glycation product that represents a general marker of oxidative stress and long-term damage of proteins in aging, atherosclerosis and diabetes     it was found to be significantly elevated in vegetarians as compared to omnivores. Fluorescent AGEs are basically a direct measurement of AGEs in the blood....Fluorescent AGEs were also significantly higher in the vegetarians."

So what are we supposed to conclude from this?  What carb do the omnivores eat that is better than fruits/vegetables? grains? beans?

[TylerDurden]

The point was that eating  fructose leads to more formation of AGEs in the blood even if the actual food itself does not contain much in the way of AGEs. So omnivores are more immune as they eat less fructose.