what qualifies as raw

[goodsamaritan]

I would take note if Tallow worked wonders for William's heart problem... did I remember correctly, William?
Just take note of it.
Whatever he did was so much better than what he was previously on.

Maybe we can just agree that

vegetable oils are crap
tallow is better (as per William's experience)
raw fat is best

[LePatron7]

The above is, of course, a load of rubbish. In actual fact, it has been repeatedly mentioned that cooked animal fats, like pasteurised butter for example, contain much higher levels of heat-created toxins in them than any other types of foods.

Tallow is one of the unhealthiest types of animal fats around. The vast number of scientific studies damning cooked saturated fats like tallow etc., have, however, erroneously cited the saturated fats as  being the cause, whereas the truth is that the vast amounts of heat-created toxins generated by cooking the saturated fats are the real culprits. Raw saturated fat is, by contrast, very healthy.

Although I've seen a lot of talk on this forum specifically damning cooked saturated fats and promoting them when raw. I've never seen any REAL scientific evidence to support that specifically raw saturated fats are fine and cooked are very damaging.

I personally think saturated fat is fine, and is a necessary energy and building block.

But when you look at the time BEFORE vegetable oils, heart disease (among other illnesses) were rare. Once vegetable oils were introduced and animal fats removed, the epidemics began.

[TylerDurden]

vegetable oils are crap
tallow is better (as per William's experience)
raw fat is best

That would be dishonest. Vegetable oils are very heavily processed, far more so than tallow.  It would be better and more truthful  to state that vegetable oils and tallow are the worst foods, that lightly-cooked foods are "less worse", and that raw foods and raw fats are best.

[TylerDurden]

Although I've seen a lot of talk on this forum specifically damning cooked saturated fats and promoting them when raw. I've never seen any REAL scientific evidence to support that specifically raw saturated fats are fine and cooked are very damaging.

Not true. There is currently a vast amount of reliable scientific evidence to show that cooked saturated fats are harmful. The ONLY reason why there are no studies showing that RAW saturated fats are harmless is because almost no studies at all  have been done on raw animal foods. That's all.

But when you look at the time BEFORE vegetable oils, heart disease (among other illnesses) were rare. Once vegetable oils were introduced and animal fats removed, the epidemics began.

This is just nonsense. First of all, I seriously doubt you can provide reliable figures from the Middle Ages in Europe, for example, given that medical records were so sparse and medicine such an unreliable science at the time. Secondly, there was a much lower lifespan in those days so that people died from a thousand other illnesses long before they ever got to an age where they could start getting heart-disease.

[LePatron7]

That's all. This is just nonsense. First of all, I seriously doubt you can provide reliable figures from the Middle Ages in Europe, for example, given that medical records were so sparse and medicine such an unreliable science at the time. Secondly, there was a much lower lifespan in those days so that people died from a thousand other illnesses long before they ever got to an age where they could start getting heart-disease.

I'm actually referring to just prior to the introduction of vegetable oils - around the early 1900's.

And here's a relatively reliable, well documented example of proof.

http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/skinny-on-fats

"Before 1920 coronary heart disease was rare in America; so rare that when a young internist named Paul Dudley White introduced the German electrocardiograph to his colleagues at Harvard University, they advised him to concentrate on a more profitable branch of medicine. The new machine revealed the presence of arterial blockages, thus permitting early diagnosis of coronary heart disease. But in those days clogged arteries were a medical rarity, and White had to search for patients who could benefit from his new technology. During the next forty years, however, the incidence of coronary heart disease rose dramatically, so much so that by the mid fifties heart disease was the leading cause of death among Americans. Today heart disease causes at least 40% of all US deaths. If, as we have been told, heart disease results from the consumption of saturated fats, one would expect to find a corresponding increase in animal fat in the American diet. Actually, the reverse is true. During the sixty-year period from 1910 to 1970, the proportion of traditional animal fat in the American diet declined from 83% to 62%, and butter consumption plummeted from eighteen pounds per person per year to four. During the past eighty years, dietary cholesterol intake has increased only 1%. During the same period the percentage of dietary vegetable oils in the form of margarine, shortening and refined oils increased about 400% while the consumption of sugar and processed foods increased about 60%."

[TylerDurden]

All the above shows that people became more likely to get heart-disease as they became more obese as a result of eating more foods in modern times, and particularly as a result of eating more refined/processed foods. Nothing more.

Incidentally, there are a number of studies showing that Mediterranean Diets(which include lots of vegetable oils) were much healthier than SAD diets. So, again, it's more a question of how processed the foods in a diet are.

[a87.pal]

This thread was meant to determine if food introduced to very low heat <60C would lead to dietary problems.

The issues with tallow and cooking in general was pretty thoroughly discussed here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/tallow-v-butter/

[TylerDurden]

This thread was meant to determine if food introduced to very low heat <60C would lead to dietary problems.

The issues with tallow and cooking in general was pretty thoroughly discussed here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/tallow-v-butter/

Yep, as I had pointed out in that thread, it was better to get hold of other raw fat such as raw marrow, raw leg of lamb etc. if one couldn't handle raw suet, instead of choosing between nasty cooked tallow or raw butter(unless one had no issues with raw dairy at all, of course).

Iguana's point re very mildly-cooked foods being in some ways worse than more-cooked foods is interesting, but it clashes with scientific data. For example:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920582/

[LePatron7]

if one couldn't handle raw suet

Raw suet sucks! The fat from the cuts of meat is where it's at. I can eat it all day, by itself.

[goodsamaritan]

Although I've seen a lot of talk on this forum specifically damning cooked saturated fats and promoting them when raw. I've never seen any REAL scientific evidence to support that specifically raw saturated fats are fine and cooked are very damaging.

I personally think saturated fat is fine, and is a necessary energy and building block.

But when you look at the time BEFORE vegetable oils, heart disease (among other illnesses) were rare. Once vegetable oils were introduced and animal fats removed, the epidemics began.

In my opinion and experience in healing sick people, you need raw saturated fats to cleanse livers and wipe out infections.  Their cooked versions cannot do that.

[William]

I would take note if Tallow worked wonders for William's heart problem... did I remember correctly, William?
Just take note of it.
Whatever he did was so much better than what he was previously on.

Maybe we can just agree that

vegetable oils are crap
tallow is better (as per William's experience)
raw fat is best

Yes, that's right.
The authority on the difference is the book "Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill" by Udo Erasmus PhD, where he shows that seed oils are processed at temperatures over 400F, and they are not heat tolerant anyway, so are poisonous.

Raw fat might be best for those who can cope with the connective tissue in it, indigestible for me.

[goodsamaritan]

try marrow. no connective tissue there.
maybe I also have fatter beef than the ones you get and I get pure fat with no connective tissue in them.

[van]

you can slice the connective tissue away from the fat or vice versa... do it all the time.  But I also have a meat grinder with small sieve that grinds it all, fat and connective tissue into paste that I then heat at 100 f in a bowl of water for about a half hour.  A lot of it melts into a golden yellow melted butter like delight.  IN fact I just finished about 2/3 cup.  Nothing better.   I suspect that connective tissue is good for something in our bodies. 

[RogueFarmer]

Man you get tallow on your french fries?!?!?!? WHERE!!!!!!!???

In America it's all fried in corn/cotton/rape seed oils. Lard and tallow or peanut fried foods are extravagancies here.

In my personal experience, cooked animal fats are way better and healthier than vegetable oils. When I started cooking with butter instead of olive oil, I lost weight, felt better and had way more energy. I don't think most vegetable oils are even utilized by the body.

I have to say in the case of meat that light cooking is worse than full cooking. When meat is lightly cooked it basically turns into leather and is indigestible. Only after cooking for a while does it start to break down in structure and again become chewable/digestible.

If meat isn't cooked right it is one of the least pleasant of things to eat.

[TylerDurden]

I have to say in the case of meat that light cooking is worse than full cooking. When meat is lightly cooked it basically turns into leather and is indigestible. Only after cooking for a while does it start to break down in structure and again become chewable/digestible.

If meat isn't cooked right it is one of the least pleasant of things to eat.

Not mine and most others' experience. Most people find that the more one cooks the meat, the more it turns into indigestible, blackened  leather-like material. By contrast, most of us find that lightly-cooked meat is much easier to digest.

[RogueFarmer]

Not mine and most others' experience. Most people find that the more one cooks the meat, the more it turns into indigestible, blackened  leather-like material. By contrast, most of us find that lightly-cooked meat is much easier to digest.

 leather like? as soon as the meat is subjected to heat it becomes tough, but if it is slow cooked for a long time it starts to fall apart. It only will get tougher if you are cooking at too high a heat.

[TylerDurden]

leather like? as soon as the meat is subjected to heat it becomes tough, but if it is slow cooked for a long time it starts to fall apart. It only will get tougher if you are cooking at too high a heat.

Rubbish.  It does NOT become tough, especially since cooking only starts affecting the outer layers, with the inner layers remaining raw. Obviously, once it becomes "well-done", the whole meat becomes blackened, indigestible, rubbish. Obviously, even slow-cooking for long periods will also make the meat indigestible, too.

[goodsamaritan]

Case to case basis with cooking, guys.

[William]

Man you get tallow on your french fries?!?!?!? WHERE!!!!!!!???

In America it's all fried in corn/cotton/rape seed oils. Lard and tallow or peanut fried foods are extravagancies here.

In my personal experience, cooked animal fats are way better and healthier than vegetable oils. When I started cooking with butter instead of olive oil, I lost weight, felt better and had way more energy. I don't think most vegetable oils are even utilized by the body.

I have to say in the case of meat that light cooking is worse than full cooking. When meat is lightly cooked it basically turns into leather and is indigestible. Only after cooking for a while does it start to break down in structure and again become chewable/digestible.

If meat isn't cooked right it is one of the least pleasant of things to eat.

MacDonald's was forced to stop cooking its french fries in tallow, I assume by the seed oil (healthy fat! Ha!) pushers. Or maybe by brainwashed customers.

[svrn]

I used to get suet that was chalky and disgusting. The suet I get from my current butcher is creamy and delicious. Its one of my favorite fats right now. The connective tissue doesnt bother me at all. Usually i Just bite the fat off the connective tissue but sometimes I eat a bit of it as well. No problems there.

AAjonus says raw vegetable oils are used by the body as solvents rather than nutritiion. They are good for cleaning the body but not as a food. Coconut oil is a good food he says however.