amenorrhea

[Ioanna]

anyone have experience with this? advice on how to get back on track? i'm so frustrated 

[cherimoya_kid]

I hate to hear when one of our longtime faithful members has a health challenge.

What's your body fat percentage?  IIRC, below 18% means that you are likely to stop menstruating. Assuming that you are below that line, my first thought is that you may be eating too few calories, and/or exercising too much. You looked very thin/muscular in that video of you swimming in the watch commercial you posted one time.

[jessica]

depends on what the cause is as to what the solution will be.  like chermoya said, low body fat is one cause.  i recently "recovered" my menstration after 5-6 years of no period, from ages 24-30.  i have a long history of self abuse with food and also was an idiot with birthcontroll and emergency contraceptives in my early 20's, however i have also always had blood sugar issues and binge eating disorder.  two weeks into a ketogenic diet, which i started in December 2012, and I had my period, it has been regular ever since.  So controlling my blood sugar and endocrine system helped.  I was also really thin, hyperactive and too low body weight during 24-28, although i would not believe it.  Now I am at my highest adult weight, which is about 30lbs overweight! So i think that may have something to do with it.

[aLptHW4k4y]

I don't have experience, but from what I've read about other peoples experiences you need to ramp up your calories (something like bulking in bodybuilding language), and make sure to eat especially plenty of cholesterol.

[Ioanna]

my weight normal is within a 10 pound range, and i've been at the lower end of this range lately (ck, about the same weight as in that video).  but even then i was regular in my cycle. i don't feel too lean, i feel just normal.

i've been eating more plant fats lately... mostly avocado and the occasional olive oil for pesto or something. for animal fats it's been mostly egg yolks and fatty fish, and a lot less lamb or bison fatty meats that i had been eating. i had this idea that i was eating too much protein, so as my gi tract is healing and i can eat more variety i've been trying to incorporate more foods.  the plant fats digest easier for me than suet and marrow gives me horrible pain in my lower right abdomen (colon) after 12hrs (no idea why?!) or so of eating it, so that's out.  maybe i'll try eating more fatty fish.... i think the cholesterol is a good point!

thanks all for the replies!!

[cherimoya_kid]

Ioanna, how are your adrenals?  How long can you go without eating?  How many times a day do you eat? Are you stressed and tired a lot?  How well do you sleep?

[van]

don't know if others have experienced this or not, but I had to give up avocados.  They were causing me pain in the area of my liver.  I would eat maybe one half to 2/3  of one a day.  Trust me, I like them, was hard to admit that they weren't good for me.  Reminds me of what I think Ray Peat said about them, that they are mostly pufa and then something about hepatic... can remember his wording.   I know if I eat them alone, as a way to test how they fuel me, they sit fine, but don't give me any real energy or feeling of strength.   
    Some of the online literature claims they are good for the liver, almost as a flush.  But I wonder if that's just for SAD dieters with their own set of maladies.   

[Ioanna]

Ioanna, how are your adrenals?  How long can you go without eating?  How many times a day do you eat? Are you stressed and tired a lot?  How well do you sleep?

adrenals... i assume fine?... i forgot, how would know??

i can go without eating just fine. i don't get jittery or anything. i usually eat two regular meals and sometimes plus a third smaller meal.

i do stress a lot, i'm too much a perfectionist. but i've been working on this and doing much better about it this year. 

with sleep i am great! random insomnia on occasion, but mostly i fall sleep nearly immediately and sleep quite hard. i wake wanting more sleep during the work week, but once i'm up i'm happy and energetic for a long day.  on the weekends when i can wake wo an alarm i wake more refreshed feeling.

i think this all means my adrenals are good?

don't know if others have experienced this or not, but I had to give up avocados.  They were causing me pain in the area of my liver.  I would eat maybe one half to 2/3  of one a day.  Trust me, I like them, was hard to admit that they weren't good for me.  Reminds me of what I think Ray Peat said about them, that they are mostly pufa and then something about hepatic... can remember his wording.   I know if I eat them alone, as a way to test how they fuel me, they sit fine, but don't give me any real energy or feeling of strength.   
    Some of the online literature claims they are good for the liver, almost as a flush.  But I wonder if that's just for SAD dieters with their own set of maladies.   

ahhhh, darn!!     avocado are so good, filling and sit well with me.  i've sorta been eating 1-2 a day in place of most animal fat, i wonder if this is something to do with my problem? i was trying to add some alkalizing foods to my diet since i otherwise don't really do well with any other fruit.  i agree with you... they sit fine, but no real energy. animal fats do a lot more for me in that regard.  i will try giving them a rest and see how that goes.  up my animal fats, and see if i get back on track.

[cherimoya_kid]

Well, it sounds like your adrenals are in pretty good shape.  Tell me about your exercise habits, though.  Jessica managed to accidentally stop her menstruation partly through doing too much exercise + work.   

 I think switching back to mostly animal fats might be a good experiment.

Do there appear to be any OTHER hormone-related issues going on, that have changed in roughly the same time frame as your menstruation stopping?  I know this is getting personal, but it's cause for concern.

[Ioanna]

Well, it sounds like your adrenals are in pretty good shape.  Tell me about your exercise habits, though.  Jessica managed to accidentally stop her menstruation partly through doing too much exercise + work.   

 I think switching back to mostly animal fats might be a good experiment.

Do there appear to be any OTHER hormone-related issues going on, that have changed in roughly the same time frame as your menstruation stopping?  I know this is getting personal, but it's cause for concern.

i posted a personal topic, so all relevant, personal questions welcome.

i really cannot think of anything else going on. i really feel quite great these days. this diet is a large part of the journey, but of course there's more, and together, especially these last few months, i feel like me, myself and i are finally coming back to one   i'm happy, and i'm optimistic.

my winter exercise schedule is less than summer, but it's usually a yoga class 3-4 days per week and then something with weights/body weight stuff a couple times per week. nothing too intense there. my work is nothing arduous at all.

when you wrote hormones, it made me think of sunshine... i haven't seen any in months!  maybe i could get some sun, earth grounding, and more animal fats. i think that could be a good start.

[jessica]

ioanna, how old are you?

I honestly think my amenorrhea was firstly based on blood sugar and insulin issues because as soon as I went keto, my menstruation came back.

[TylerDurden]

Try Mercola's Krill Oil....

[PaleoPhil]

Here are some sources on amenorrhea:

Paleo and Amenorrhea: How Extremity Can Make even the Best Diet Fail, http://www.paleoforwomen.com/how-extremity-can-make-even-the-best-diet-fail

The Female(?) Athlete Triad - Part II/III: LH, GH, IGF1, Insulin, Ghrelin, Leptin & Co Form a Self-Perpetuating Vicious Cycle, http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-female-athlete-triad-part-iiiii-lh.html

I've noticed many reports of amenorrhea by raw vegans and fruitarians, with some of them even claiming that it's a sign of good health!

Ray Peat wrote this about avocados: "Not all fruits, of course, are perfectly safe—avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic." (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml) Yet one of the sources he cited (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1776821) found a significant marker of increased liver fibrosis only in unrefined avocado oil, not refined avocado oil (and raw whole avocados were not even tested). Refining removes allergenic proteins from oils (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10722892).

Chitinases and chitinase-like lectin proteins, which are found in avocados and other plant foods, have been linked to the processes in fibrosis, cancer and inflammatory bowel disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHI3L1, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181078/). This suggests that the problem could be with the chitinase proteins in avocadoes, rather than the PUFA or MUFA content (and it could also be that "the dose makes the poison"). The abstract for the other source he cited (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9891232) does not indicate what sort of "avocado" product was tested.

Chitinases are also found in bananas, chestnuts, kiwis, avocados, papaya, tomatoes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitinase) and other plant foods. They are defense-related plant proteins that break down the chitin in the cell walls of fungi and insects. They might theoretically do the same in sensitive humans at sufficient doses. They are also known to trigger allergic reactions. Like other lectins, they might potentially trigger autoimmune reactions.

Ray Peat made the chitinase - cancer connection here - http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/milk.shtml - but didn't address it in his Vegetables article.

I don't seem to fare well on avocados myself, but I don't yet see enough evidence to make a connection between the PUFA or MUFA in avocados and liver fibrosis and I suspect that any lectin issue would be dependent on dosage and differences between individuals.

[cherimoya_kid]

Avocados tend to sap your energy.  I eat a lot of them, because that effect is no longer apparent in me, but it was very pronounced for several years. I don't know exactly what caused the change.

[van]

thanks for the reference Phil

[Ioanna]

avocados are such an easy way to add calories... and in public!   plus i just like them so... maybe i'll start with a huge cut back before i ban them 

thanks phil for the post and resources!

Try Mercola's Krill Oil....

i'm going to look it up, but what do you know about the processing procedures??

[van]

they use heat,  i looked into it a few years ago, but then, maybe they've changed processors

[TylerDurden]

i'm going to look it up, but what do you know about the processing procedures??

I vaguely recall that PP mentioned that that krill oil had heat used in the manufacturing process. That said, I did still feel a positive effect therefrom, so maybe the heat involved was not considerable. On those occasions when I drank alcohol, for example,  I would find that I got  far fewer side-effects therefrom if I took those krill-oil tablets.

[Inger]

Avocados tend to sap your energy.  I eat a lot of them, because that effect is no longer apparent in me, but it was very pronounced for several years. I don't know exactly what caused the change.

Intresting... Shows how different we can react to stuff...
I do eat avocados once in a while but not much. Hard to get in good quality here anyways.. I do love the taste! I have not noticed any ill effects but as said I eat them very occasionally.

Ionna I am so sorry you have this particular issue.  I never missed one period so far, and I can imagine that being concerning. I just had my very regular period starting 1 week too early.. I thought.. WTH that has never happend! I have no clue why. Was a perfect period, no PMS, just smooth sailing.. but I still wonder why. I did had 1 whole bottle of organic red wine the weekend prior.. I had no alcohol for long and it was plain stupid of me. I felt not good the next day at all. If that was it? I had a few pretty intense oxytocin releases too prior to the early starting period.. I wonder if those messed up my hormones a little? lol

Hope you get it figured out soon! I think it will sort itself out if you feel great, sleep is great, food is great.. plenty of sunshine..etc.  (do not forget to tan nude, the best thing you can do for your hormones  )

[Iguana]

If I were a woman (which I’m not…) I wouldn’t worry at all about that, Ioanna. Menstruations could well be abnormal and due to cooked food and/or improperly balanced diet. Why would a healthy body purposely get rid of its own blood? There’s a thread about it in GCB’s forum, here is a rough and very slightly revised Google translation of his answer.

Answer of Guy-Claude Burger January 15, 2011 at 16:28
http://instinctotherapie.ning.com/forum/topics/menstruations-1
   
    Indeed interesting articles that confirm exactly what is observed with instincto.

    We must begin by distinguish a lack of menstruation, absence or significant reduction of blood flow monthly, of a lack of ovulation, which would imply a failure in the ovaries or oviducts.

    It is not surprising that blood flow usually observed in women diminishes or disappears almost completely with the return to a better diet. We should rather say that ordinary food induces a pathological bleeding tendency.

    The first observation that I have made this point dates back to 1968: bleeding time measured in a child with acute myelogenous leukemia was normalized in 11 days, to the amazement of her doctor. Similarly, in cases of haemophilia, bleeding were reduced in a few weeks. We can see yourself the relationship between protein overload and bleeding gums for example, or nosebleeds (totally absent in children instinctos). Without the day after an overload of meat, so it is natural that the menstrual bleeding are reduced as well as others.

    Feelings of shame or anxiety associated with menstruation, such as the rejection of women "impure" outside the group as practiced by the Israelites, was probably due to the fact that this phenomenon does not exist at the origin and is strewn with diet changes and higher protein consumption. There are perhaps even intuition among girls at menarche, they are much more susceptible to menstrual flow as any bleeding.

    I saw my wife's first total disappearance of the menstruations at a time when we consumed very little animal protein, then the return of menstruation increasingly important as and as it 's is used to consume more meat. The lack of visible discharge does not, however, prevent ovulation or conception.

    The relationship between bleeding tendency and protein overload is not surprising: a large number of proteins are involved in the cascade clotting and healing. Just a malfunction at one of these factors for clotting and healing do not occur normally. Several failures may overlap due to overload or nutritional or bad associations which multiply the molecular accidents, or even the culinary denaturation of proteins. The nutritional disorder can undoubtedly cause problems at ovulation, but this is a much more stable (and linked to the survival of the species) than a relatively benign disturbance repair.

    It can therefore be regarded as menstrual bleeding disorder caused by food. The fact that it is universally prevalent simply follows from the universality of culinary practices, including protein overload. The practice of a balanced and undenatured diet automatically normalizes the bleeding tendency that is sometimes seen reappear during the "detoxination crises" recognizable by other symptoms (such as menses odors).

    Cordially

    gcb

[aLptHW4k4y]

That sounds unlikely given that monkeys, orangutans, chimpanzees, are also losing blood?

[Iguana]

In captivity or in the wild?

[aLptHW4k4y]

Don't know about that, but here's an example article: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3035646?uid=3737864&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101865010313

Rather than having and adaptive basis in ecology or behavior, variation in the degree of menstrual bleeding in primates shows a striking correlation with phylogeny. The endometrial microvasculature is designed to provide the blood supply to the endometrium and the placenta, and external bleeding appears to be a side effect of endometrial regression that arises when there is too much blood and other tissue for complete reabsortion. The copious bleeding of humans and chimps can be attributed to the large size of the uterus relative to adult female size and to the design of the microvasculature in catarrhines.

My guess is that amount of blood decreases or goes to zero when there's lack of nutrients, whether it's calories, protein, etc., in order to conserve energy.

[PaleoPhil]

Iona, you mentioned stress, which is one of the amenorrhea factors covered at http://www.paleoforwomen.com/how-extremity-can-make-even-the-best-diet-fail. Falling sleep nearly immediately, sleeping "quite hard" and "wanting more sleep" suggest sleep deficit, which can be stressful when chronic.


Menstruation is reportedly believed to trace back to Catarrhini primate ancestors of humans http://www.kband.com/reports/000116.html, which doesn't jibe with the notion of menstruation as "abnormal." Despite the unusually high frequency of reports of loss of noticeable menstruation by raw vegans, Dough Graham reported that "many women" on raw vegan diets "do not experience this." Even (wild) fruit bats menstruate: "Fruit Bats Discovered To Have Menstrual Cycles," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070805194059.htm

There is a difference between amenorrhea (complete absence of menstruation) vs. just minimal or no visible menstrual bleeding. GCB is right that just a "significant reduction of blood flow monthly" doesn't necessarily have any negative health implication and could be a good sign.

There is covert as well as overt menstruation (http://www.differencebetween.net/science/biology-science/difference-between-ovulation-and-menstruation), and overt menstruation can vary in both frequency and quantity. Natural factors like pregnancy, breast-feeding and physical exertion inhibit menstruation, which would be less of a factor for modern women and captive primates that go for long periods without becoming pregnant than for sexually and physically active traditional women and wild primates not using contraceptives.

There are negative health symptoms that may help distinguish whether one has a truly pathological condition involving amenorrhea, vs. a benign or even beneficial phenomenon (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581/DSECTION=symptoms, http://wiki.medpedia.com/Amenorrhea#Signs_and_Symptoms, http://www.livestrong.com/article/486066-underweight-and-amenorrhea/):

Hair loss
Headache
Vision problems
Changes in the skin or hair, such as excess facial hair or dry skin
Feeling excessively hot or cold
Feelings of depression or anxiety
Abnormal weight loss or abdominal fat gain
Milky nipple discharge
Underweight

Poor health practices that can cause pathological amenorrhea reportedly include insufficient food/calories (commonly due to anorexia or excessively restricted/extreme diets), excessive exercise, and chronic stress. Chronic illness and certain medications can also be factors.

[jessica]

iguana the bodies do not just "give up blood"  after ovulation the uterus lining builds up to help nourishment to the fertilized egg its expecting.  this lining is flushed each month with the ebb and flow of hormones.  its seriously one of our most ancient and amazing cycles, perfectly aligned with the lunar cycles.