Raw Eggs

[Wolf]

I switched to green tea from coffee a few weeks ago and my arthritis persisted, so I think it really is the caffeine or another molecule present in both coffee and tea causing, or exacerbating the problem.

Ah, well.. I just wanted to see if there was an excuse I could make to keep my mom from just switching to decaf coffee.. how do they even decaffeinate coffee anyways?  it seems to me like it would be a very degrading process.

[PaleoPhil]

All kinds of eggs are found in nature where it has not been depleted by men. Sea turtles eggs for example are very easy to get, about 100 or 120 at once in a nest. Those turtles have become endangered species since men have killed most of them.

Indeed, and I've read accounts saying that prairie bird eggs were so plentiful, in season, and so easy to obtain (the nests were on the ground), that the Lakota people left most of the egg-gathering to little children (with at least one chaperon, of course).

Killing a female wild animal and sucking a little bit of milk from her must indeed be a remarkable circumstance: I guess even more unusual than finding a carcass grilled by the lava of a volcanic eruption or by a forest fire started by a lightning.

Sucking? I've seen a couple reports of hunter-gatherers pouring milk from the animal's udder into a container made from the stomach (or was it the hide or bladder?), allowing it to ferment, thus reducing the lactose, and later sharing it. It wouldn't come out to a lot per person, but it was interesting. Another interesting question is whether much adaptation is needed to say, raw goat butter, to begin with. I'll try to stay out of debates about the definition of "Paleo," I just wonder--what if there's nothing in raw goat butter that requires much adaptation by a person? Then wouldn't it be relatively healthy to eat for that person? It's at least theoretically possible, yes?

[Iguana]

Another interesting question is whether much adaptation is needed to say, raw goat butter, to begin with. I'll try to stay out of debates about the definition of "Paleo," I just wonder--what if there's nothing in raw goat butter that requires much adaptation by a person? Then wouldn't it be relatively healthy to eat for that person? It's at least theoretically possible, yes?

Yes sure, it is theoretically possible. Some individuals may be fairly adapted to dairy (or perhaps at least to dairy fat), but we can’t know who because short term reactions or absence of reactions aren’t insuring that there won’t be any serious trouble in the long term. So, refraining from all dairy as well as all cooked food can be seen as a wise precautionary principle.

But of course, if there’s nothing else to eat, it will be better to eat butter than let us die of starvation…  
 

[PaleoPhil]

And might there not be worse foods to eat then raw butter? Such as margarine made from corn and soybean oil? And are foods purely healthy vs. purely unhealthy or do they lie on a spectrum of unhealthiness/healthiness with some only slightly bad or slightly good, on average and with individual variations?

[van]

As explained by Nicole at Montrame to me was that raw proteins will be substituted for old damaged cooked proteins that have been used and built into one's body.  As I have written here before, I had experienced that directly years ago when going instincto eating lots of raw tuna, and the massive eliminations resulting from have grown up as a kid on canned tuna.  I believe the same can be said for raw dairy for those having grown up on pasturized dairy.  And I wonder if that might have been what Guy Claude was experiencing when he experimented with dairy,, first cow, then goat?    Dairy is such a variable food item.  Does one have the necessary Amounts of Lactose digesting bacteria in the intestines to handle the lactose, or has one taken the efforts to build the bacteria numbers up.  Is one combining dairy with other foods?  Is the dairy fermented or straight from the animal.  Is the animal not only grass fed, but GREEN grass fed,, pretty hard to do year around in France, unless you're in the South of France (I would get mucous from my goats milk in the late fall (every year ) when the green grass would turn brown for the few months before the rains came again). 

[svrn]

Yes sure, it is theoretically possible. Some individuals may be fairly adapted to dairy (or perhaps at least to dairy fat), but we can’t know who because short term reactions or absence of reactions aren’t insuring that there won’t be any serious trouble in the long term. So, refraining from all dairy as well as all cooked food can be seen as a wise precautionary principle.

But of course, if there’s nothing else to eat, it will be better to eat butter than let us die of starvation…  
 

Dairy has made me feel much better immediately (goat dairy I havent tried any cow milk that went well for me yet, cheese and butter and sour cream from cow digest fine though). I owe my weight gain to it, before I added dairy gaining weight was impossible and now the added fat I have thanks to the dairy makes me feel much more...sturdy would be a good word to describe it. I dont know if the muscle iv gained has anything to do with dairy because it came after I started working out but the fat I gained was definitly a dairy thing and definitly makes me a feel a lot bettr than without it.

[Iguana]

And might there not be worse foods to eat then raw butter? Such as margarine made from corn and soybean oil? And are foods purely healthy vs. purely unhealthy or do they lie on a spectrum of unhealthiness/healthiness with some only slightly bad or slightly good, on average and with individual variations?

I for sure agree that most people commonly eat are much worst things than raw butter! If such junk can be called food remains an open question! 

The concept of “healthy food” is something I don’t recognize anymore. When we limit our appreciation to clean raw paleo stuffs, there are  good, tasty foods and then all the spectrum of more or less neutral to bad tasting things. This gradation from good to bad is highly variable and constantly shifting: it fluctuates according to the amount, the concerned person, her present state as well as with the quality, state of ripeness, etc. of a given foodstuff (there are bad carrots and good carrots, for example). Something may be good for someone in a given amount and bad for someone else in the same amount. It’s all a matter of dosage, everything ingested in excess becoming detrimental or even toxic.

Moreover, fried potatoes, bread and pasteurized cheese could be qualified “healthy” when it saves someone from starvation. 

As explained by Nicole at Montrame to me was that raw proteins will be substituted for old damaged cooked proteins that have been used and built into one's body.  As I have written here before, I had experienced that directly years ago when going instincto eating lots of raw tuna, and the massive eliminations resulting from have grown up as a kid on canned tuna.  I believe the same can be said for raw dairy for those having grown up on pasturized dairy.  And I wonder if that might have been what Guy Claude was experiencing when he experimented with dairy,, first cow, then goat?

That could be a possible explanation, Van. But I doubt GCB, as the meticulous observer he is, would have confused spontaneous infections with detoxination symptoms. Several years after he logically questioned the consumption of dairy products, a lot of scientific papers were published questioning also the suitability of animal milk for human consumption. At least in Europe, many dietitians are now also condemning the consumption of animal milk, moreover in adulthood, something no wild animal does on this planet. There’s no cross consumption of milk between different species, except some very rare and exceptional cases, each mammal species having it specific milk whit the exact composition adapted to the species’ offspring.

Here (edit: in Europe) there’s still only the dairy industry to promote milk consumption. 

[Iguana]

Dairy has made me feel much better immediately (goat dairy I havent tried any cow milk that went well for me yet, cheese and butter and sour cream from cow digest fine though). I owe my weight gain to it, before I added dairy gaining weight was impossible and now the added fat I have thanks to the dairy makes me feel much more...sturdy would be a good word to describe it. I dont know if the muscle iv gained has anything to do with dairy because it came after I started working out but the fat I gained was definitly a dairy thing and definitly makes me a feel a lot bettr than without it.

Bread and pasta, would certainly make you gain fat. Take cooked food again, and you’ll feel good for a while  because detoxination is stopped and cereals contains opioids, as milk. You can gain a lot weight on cooked food! Look around you, how many people are obese? Ask one of them what he eats to have gained so much weight!

[svrn]

But that is where you are wrong. When I ate that crap i used to have a very different kind of fat. It was jiggly  and bulged out in certain places. And it always felt gross and like it weighed me down. Now all of my fat is very dense and spread out evenly all over my body and the more of it I have the more energy I have. I remember running when I was skinny which I havent done in a long time. I recently had to sprint somewhere now that I have all this fat I sprintd longer than I ever could hav when I was skinny and I was faster and not even that tired when I was done. I felt very different than when I was skinny or jiggly fat and this is after not practicing running for almost a year.

SO I know that theres a huge difference between bread fat and raw fat. I can feel it like its worlds apart. THis is from personal experience.

[PaleoPhil]

I for sure agree that most people commonly eat are much worst things than raw butter! If such junk can be called food remains an open question! 

Well, at least we agree that raw butter is less "junk" than margarine! 

The concept of “healthy food” is something I don’t recognize anymore. When we limit our appreciation to clean raw paleo stuffs, there are  good, tasty foods and then all the spectrum of more or less neutral to bad tasting things.

Use whatever terms you wish. I'm not concerned about semantics like "healthy" vs. "clean". One minor caveat--"clean" is sufficiently vague that it better enables BSing. I've seen vegans misuse the term. Luckily, you stick mainly to real world experience, Francois, so I don't see that as a concern in this case.

As for taste, raw Zamorano sheep cheese is one of the best tasting foods I've tried (for my tastes, of course, not everyone likes it). Too expensive to eat regularly, though, and I seem to get even better benefits from eating cheap suet and marrow, though they don't taste as good to me.

Moreover, fried potatoes, bread and pasteurized cheese could be qualified “healthy” when it saves someone from starvation. 

Don't worry, I'm not starving. 

At least in Europe, many dietitians are now also condemning the consumption of animal milk, moreover in adulthood, something no wild animal does on this planet.

What is your evidence for this? What predator refuses to eat the milk in a full udder? I've seen videos of lions and hyenas consuming whole carcasses of small animals, bones and all. They didn't spit out any milk. Jackals and even feral hogs reportedly do this.

Here there’s still only the dairy industry to promote milk consumption. 

What dairy industry is here? What are you talking about? Here there are only people sharing their personal experiences. Heck, I've been attacked in the past by Weston Price devotees for not being sufficiently pro-dairy.

[Iguana]

@ Troll
Sure, there a huge difference between raw and cooked, and the same between raw and cooked / pasteurized dairy. Now you're eating all raw, don't you? Have you eaten all raw without dairy for a period long enough for your immune system  to get out of tolerance and for the detox symptoms the be almost unnoticeable? At least about two years?

[Iguana]

 

Well, at least we agree that raw butter is less "junk" than margarine! 
Use whatever terms you wish. I'm not concerned about semantics like "healthy" vs. "clean". One minor caveat--"clean" is sufficiently vague that it better enables BSing. I've seen vegans misuse the term. Luckily, you stick mainly to real world experience, Francois, so I don't see that as a concern in this case.

By “clean” I meant not heated, without grain and junk feeding, etc.

As for taste, raw Zamorano sheep cheese is one of the best tasting foods I've tried (for my tastes, of course, not everyone likes it). Too expensive to eat regularly, though, and I seem to get even better benefits from eating cheap suet and marrow, though they don't taste as good to me.

Do you consider cheese as paleo?

What is your evidence for this? What predator refuses to eat the milk in a full udder? I've seen videos of lions and hyenas consuming whole carcasses of small animals, bones and all. They didn't spit out any milk. Jackals and even feral hogs reportedly do this.
What dairy industry is here? What are you talking about? Here there are only people sharing their personal experiences. Heck, I've been attacked in the past by Weston Price devotees for not being sufficiently pro-dairy.

Is there much milk in a wild female udder? Bruno Comby tried hard by several different means to extract some milk from a mistakenly killed deer which was breast feeding her offspring, but he failed to get any. He said milk is produced just in time, there’s no milk stored. He might have lied, I don’t know. Our domestic cows and goats are a different case, of course. 

I meant the dairy industry "here in Europe".   

[LePatron7]

WHat do you guys think about the studies showing raw eggs to have only a 50% absorption rate, with cooked eggs at 98%?

[svrn]

@ Troll
Sure, there a huge difference between raw and cooked, and the same between raw and cooked / pasteurized dairy. Now you're eating all raw, don't you? Have you eaten all raw without dairy for a period long enough for your immune system  to get out of tolerance and for the detox symptoms the be almost unnoticeable? At least about two years?

My first year was dairy free because I had no source. Then I did a couple months on cow milk and it didnt seem to good. Then I went back to no dairy for a few months and then I tried goat milk only and felt great, still use cow butter cheese and sour cream though.

[svrn]

WHat do you guys think about the studies showing raw eggs to have only a 50% absorption rate, with cooked eggs at 98%?

i think that it just shows how meaningless studies really are. Only my own experience counts for me.

[PaleoPhil]

By “clean” I meant not heated, without grain and junk feeding, etc.

If that's what you mean, why not say it?

Do you consider cheese as paleo?

All cheese? No.

Is there much milk in a wild female udder? Bruno Comby tried hard...

Please remember, you said "no wild animal." My guess is that you don't consider Bruno Comby a "wild animal", or do you? 

I meant the dairy industry "here in Europe".

They aren't here, so they are no concern here.

WHat do you guys think about the studies showing raw eggs to have only a 50% absorption rate, with cooked eggs at 98%?

I say try raw eggs and cooked eggs and see which you feel better after.

[van]

Iguana, I don't understand this 'spontaneous infections' you mention...  I never had any, nor do I hear about them in other raw milk consuming circles.   But then when one wants to believe in a new and wonderful food, 'we' can forget or overlook minor difficulties.   But more on the spontaneous infections,,  if one is cleansing or eliminating by eating raw proteins, those old damaged molecules will be in the blood, lymph and stools etc, and my guess is there would be a hightened or taxed  or overwhelmed immune system, thus a potential for bacteria and virus's to feed on those molecules before being eliminated from the body.   This seems obvious to me,,,  and not to you?

[raw-al]

WHat do you guys think about the studies showing raw eggs to have only a 50% absorption rate, with cooked eggs at 98%?

Cooked eggs typically give me serious indigestion. Raw do not.

[LePatron7]

I say try raw eggs and cooked eggs and see which you feel better after.

I feel fine after raw eggs. However after eliminating eggs on a trial period I'd say I do better without eggs.

[van]

gotta find eggs where they're not eating grain, and have plenty of bugs and greens to eat,,,    to rule them out. 

[PaleoPhil]

I feel fine after raw eggs. However after eliminating eggs on a trial period I'd say I do better without eggs.

That's certainly a third option--raw vs. cooked vs. none at all. I've tested all three myself (and various types and sources of eggs) and find I do best by including raw eggs in my diet. Glad you found something that works for you through self-testing.

[LePatron7]

gotta find eggs where they're not eating grain, and have plenty of bugs and greens to eat,,,    to rule them out.

True. I've been eating WF pastured and free range eggs, likely not the highest quality. I could get them from Miller's which has fantastic soy free eggs.

[Iguana]

Use whatever terms you wish. I'm not concerned about semantics like "healthy" vs. "clean".

Phil, this isn’t a semantic matter! It is a complete paradigm shift!

What is your evidence for this? What predator refuses to eat the milk in a full udder? I've seen videos of lions and hyenas consuming whole carcasses of small animals, bones and all. They didn't spit out any milk. Jackals and even feral hogs reportedly do this.

I finally found the post of Bruno Comby about his experiment trying to get the milk from the breast of a freshly killed lactating mammal.

http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A2=ind9704&L=RAW-FOOD&P=R1210&1=RAW-FOOD&9=A&I=-3&J=on&X=09D7231FD80331D8BF&Y=dovatf%40bluewin.ch&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4

I remember visiting Eric Billon in the early 90's, an instinctive MD who
was then living in Quebec (he now moved back to Martinique with his
family). He had gone dear-hunting in a totally virgin inhabited island
in the estuary of the St Laurent River estuary with a few instinctive
friends), a famous canadian hunting spot. When they came home from their
hunting-trip, they brought back a female-dear that they had shot on that
afternoon. Just after shooting her, they had noticed a baby-dear
standing close by, very young, still breast-fed. When they told me the
story, I felt sorry for the baby-dear, who will probably not have
survived without his feeding-mother (he was scared and ran away when his
mother was shot). But I decided to take profit of the situation for a
unique scientific test. Would it be possible to drink the milk from
mother-dear after its death ? That was the the milk from the breast of a
freshly killed lactating mammal. It was just a few hours after
mother-dear had been shot and the temperature was moderately cold on
that day (5-10°C), therefore the body was in a very good state of
conservation.
I first noticed that the milk glands were slightly swollen, which is
normal and an indication that mother-dear was indeed breast-feeding her
infant. Then I put my mouth on dead-mother-dear's breast and sucked hard
for the milk to see how it would taste and how my body would react. To
my surprise, absolutely no milk was available however powerful the
succion force. Not even one drop of milk available ! I then tried
another more radical way and dissected several of those small breasts
one after another with a knife (note that the use of a knife in itself
is already artificial). By ripping apart the tissues and pressing them
real hard, I could hardly obtain more than a few drops of whitish-redish
juice from the whole animal, not more than you would obtain by pressing
a solid fresh steack. Those few drops didn't even taste like milk at all
(more like pressed meat or blood).
The conclusion of this experiment clearly was that before our human
ancestors started raising cattle at the early neolithic period (more or
less 8-10 000 years ago), they probably NEVER had access to another
species' milk. The live animal won't let you suck it. The dead animal
doesn't have any milk available. The milk of mammals is secreted "au fur
et à mesure" only when the baby mammal sucks the breast. No milk
stocks-ed in advance. Cows with 50 liters of milk balancing under their
belly, as we can see in every farm nowadays has be obtained only
recently through artificial food given to the animals and selection of
the cows giving the greatest amount of milk.

If that's what you mean, why not say it?

Sorry about that.

All cheese? No.

Not all but some?? What kinds of cheese do you think were available in Paleolithic times?

I say try raw eggs and cooked eggs and see which you feel better after.

What is such an experiment meant to prove?

Iguana, I don't understand this 'spontaneous infections' you mention...  I never had any, nor do I hear about them in other raw milk consuming circles.   But then when one wants to believe in a new and wonderful food, 'we' can forget or overlook minor difficulties.   But more on the spontaneous infections,,  if one is cleansing or eliminating by eating raw proteins, those old damaged molecules will be in the blood, lymph and stools etc, and my guess is there would be a hightened or taxed  or overwhelmed immune system, thus a potential for bacteria and virus's to feed on those molecules before being eliminated from the body.   This seems obvious to me,,,  and not to you?

GCB mentions that during the alternating periods in which they drank milk, even from their own goat, small wounds got often infected and himself even had (twice, if I remember correctly) spontaneous infections in one arm. On the contrary, when we eat 100% raw paleo, even serious wounds never get infected.

Your hypothesis seems plausible. But if there’s no way to get any milk from a wild animal, as the above post of Bruno Comby suggests, then it would be odd and the most probable explanation is opposite.

True. I've been eating WF pastured and free range eggs, likely not the highest quality. I could get them from Miller's which has fantastic soy free eggs.

They should be wheat free and heated stuff free as well! Try mine, I’ve got plenty this time of the year!

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, this isn’t a semantic matter! It is a complete paradigm shift!

Yes, it is a bit more than semantics, for I find the term "healthy" more understandable than "clean," which I've seen interpreted many different ways (most commonly to mean vegan or raw vegan as assumed to be optimally healthy diets). Clean is such a vague and differently-used term that I don't know what paradigm you are trying to communicate with it.

I finally found the post of Bruno Comby about his experiment trying to get the milk from the breast of a freshly killed lactating mammal.

My point was that I was discussing wild predators like lions, hyenas, jackals and feral hogs, consuming whole carcasses of small animals, including the milk. Bruno Comby is not a wild predator, he is a domesticated human. He is also a single individual. His failure is not proof. A single counter-example would disprove his claim. I've seen a couple such reports myself. I'll try to find one of them. Of course, we're not talking huge amounts of milk here, but that doesn't mean that milk was never consumed during the Paleolithic.

What kinds of cheese do you think were available in Paleolithic times?

I was hoping to avoid getting into a debate over what "Paleo" means. Suffice it to say for now that "foods that were available in Paleolithic times" is not my definition of Paleo. Is that really your definition?

What is such an experiment meant to prove?

It wasn't meant to "prove" anything. It was in response to a question about raw vs. cooked eggs. If you have a better suggestion, feel free to make it.

small wounds got often infected and himself even had (twice, if I remember correctly) spontaneous infections

I've never experienced this, not even in the days I was consuming pasteurized skim milk, the worst of the worst. In fact, I've never had an infected wound in my life, despite getting wounds. I eventually even stopped bothering to dig out deep splinters, as I noticed that they came out on their own eventually and I never got an infection. Did GCB have an immune system issue?

[Iguana]

Yes, it is a bit more than semantics, for I find the term "healthy" more understandable than "clean," which I've seen interpreted many different ways (most commonly to mean vegan or raw vegan as assumed to be optimally healthy diets). Clean is such a vague and differently-used term that I don't know what paradigm you are trying to communicate with it.

Ther term « clean » is probably unwise. I told you, by “clean” I meant not heated, without grain and junk feeding, etc. Anyway the words “healthy food” are meaningless if used to say that a food is beneficial for the health of the one consuming it. It should be totally abandoned in such use since a same stuff can be beneficial for someone at a given time and in the suitable amount, harmful in an excessive amount or another day, and noxious to someone else in any amount.

My point was that I was discussing wild predators like lions, hyenas, jackals and feral hogs, consuming whole carcasses of small animals, including the milk. Bruno Comby is not a wild predator, he is a domesticated human. He is also a single individual. His failure is not proof. A single counter-example would disprove his claim. I've seen a couple such reports myself. I'll try to find one of them. Of course, we're not talking huge amounts of milk here, but that doesn't mean that milk was never consumed during the Paleolithic.

Yes, his failure is not prove. Miles (one of the several contributors who suddenly disappeared) posted a video where we can see few centiliters of milk sipping out from a killed wild animal. Even if there is perhaps sometimes a tiny amount of milk in a wild mammal udder, and even if predators such as lions, hyenas, jackals and feral hogs would maybe indifferently swallow that little bit of milk along with the  flesh, it doesn’t mean that hominids would have done that or were even able to do it.

I thought it was widely admitted by every sensible person that milk and dairy are typically Neolithic foods like cereal grains. But this raw paleo forum happens to be more and more attended by milk drinkers and dairy proponents, to the point that I get assaulted from all sides each time I remind that milk is not more a Paleolithic food than grain. It begins to take too much of my time to dutifully answer to all these attacks. Therefore, I’m considering to ask GS to remove me from the moderators list because I feel less and less at home in a forum that should be renamed “Raw Neolithic Forum”.

Cheers
François