Another Dairy Topic

[yon yonson]

so i've been thinking, a lot of you guys are pretty adamant that raw dairy is not good to consume on a regular basis, which i tend to agree with. however, doesn't it make sense that paleo people would have killed a lactating female animal every once in a while... if so, they would have definitely consumed whatever milk was present. anyways, just something i've been thinking about. maybe humans evolved eating small quantities of dairy every once in a while. for that matter, all carnivores must be occasional dairy consumers in the wild. im no big dairy advocate or anything (i only eat raw cheese a couple times a month - never had any other raw dairy products), but just wanted to see what you guys think of this theory. 

[Kristelle]

Butter and even cream seem to be ok for most but cheese, yogurt, milk not so much because of too much lactose and casein.

[Raw Kyle]

That's quite a stretch to say that we evolved to eat some dairy because of lactating mothers. They would be much less likely to be the ones killed because they would be moving around less during their lactation period.

I agree with Kristelle, the dairy stuff that is mostly fat doesn't bother me much but milk and other dairy with lots of lactose mess me up.

[wodgina]

i agree that cream is pretty good, while travelling i have been eating lean mince washed down with pasteurised cream and it felt good. Only last resort thing though.

[RawZi]

    I just came up with a morbid thought.  That maybe if the slain lactating animal was not eaten in total the first few days, and the milk rotted into cheese, an that's where humans' taste for cheese came from.

    I like the taste an effect of cream.

[TylerDurden]

I'm afraid that this theory is completely wrong. For one thing, lactating females do not store the milk in their breasts, for practical reasons. Instead, what happens is that the breasts' glands are stimulated into producing milk by pressure from the offspring, and the animal has to be alive for this process to occur. So, strictly speaking, any milk consumed from the udders would be either nonexistent, or extremely microscopic if a female animal had just been feeding its young.
It's a myth, incidentally, that raw butter is the only dairy that isn't harmful. ALL types of dairy are harmful, it is simply that butter doesn't trigger as severe and instant a reaction in a number of people(though it does with many others), and the long-term effects would still be deleterious to health, as butter still contains some casein and lactose, not to mention other harmful aspects of dairy.

[avalon]

Kristelle wrote:

Butter and even cream seem to be ok for most but cheese, yogurt, milk not so much because of too much lactose and casein.

Not too much in Goat Milk, the preferred milk around the world except for us Westerners. I buy Goat milk every so often and love the cheese as well. Sad to say it isn't raw, but that's on my to do list.

I think it makes sense with Humans being Humans, we would have tried it out of curiosity. And we have evolved to consume dairy. Some of us anyway.

http://evomech1.blogspot.com/2006/12/study-detects-recent-instance-of-human.html

Study Detects Recent Instance of Human Evolution

A discovery by an international team led by University of Maryland researcher Sarah Tishkoff* identifies, for the first time, genetic mutations in East Africans that are associated with the ability to digest milk as adults.

Tishkoff's study of DNA, described in the journal Nature Genetics [1], found that the mutations evolved at the time in history when some Africans were beginning to raise cattle, and they evolved independently from the mutation that regulates milk digestion in Europeans.

The findings are not only evidence of how genes and culture co-evolve, says Tishkoff, associate professor of biology at Maryland, "they reveal one of the most striking genetic footprints of natural selection ever observed in humans."

I have no issues with dairy, yet my Sister does

[Satya]

I'm afraid that this theory is completely wrong. For one thing, lactating females do not store the milk in their breasts, for practical reasons. Instead, what happens is that the breasts' glands are stimulated into producing milk by pressure from the offspring, and the animal has to be alive for this process to occur. So, strictly speaking, any milk consumed from the udders would be either nonexistent, or extremely microscopic if a female animal had just been feeding its young.

As someone with years of experience lactating, I completely agree with Tyler.  It's not like mammary glands are these big sacks of milk waiting to be drunk or fermented if the animal is killed.  In fact, unused milk will get reabsorbed by the body if it does not get sucked out within a certain period of time.  I have no idea if this happens post mortem.

Also, from a hunting perspective, traditional hunter-gatherers do not generally go for young animals or females in birthing season.

Milk is a Neolithic food.  Some people can tolerate it better than others, but imo, no one should be consuming it on any kind of a regular basis, unless it comes from a woman you know whose diet you trust.

[avalon]

Milk is a Neolithic food.  Some people can tolerate it better than others, but imo, no one should be consuming it on any kind of a regular basis, unless it comes from a woman you know whose diet you trust.

Here lies the rub. Humans do many things, many things, many things unnatural! We fly in planes! We drive in cars! Even bicycles. We floss our teeth! Drink our tea or coffee. How many here drink coffee or tea? I'd actually given it up until drinking some green tea again this last month. Where do you draw the line?

Many people, maybe not tons-o-people, but many people, probably as many as say nay, approve and swear by raw dairy. Where is the bad info about Goat milk? I haven't found it and I've looked. Cow milk? Yes, it seems.

I know, I know Geoff doesn't go for Raw Milk. Still, others do. Tolerate it? Too simple. Some people can drink it with no problem and some can't. I have never had an issue with dairy. Maybe you have and that's okay. I more than tolerate it.

Still, I'll say we don't know enough. But please remember there's a world out there that thrives on raw dairy.  And of course there's

http://www.wewant2live.com/site/811618/page/884241

My recommends is no matter what you think you know, try if you wish, for yourself.

Best wishes,
Avalon 

oh, and if you can't drink cow milk, try Goat milk. If you can't drink Goat Milk, don't drink it. If you don't want to drink dairy at all, because taste is involved don't drink it. I like the taste of Goat milk and cheese a lot. It's not a staple, but an occasional welcomenessess.

http://community.livejournal.com/paleo_health/tag/raw+milk

"The research has certainly been promising so far. Prompted by figures showing that children growing up on farms are less likely to develop allergies, scientists at the University of London gave children a couple of glasses of raw milk a week. They found that it seemed to cut their chances of developing hay fever by 10 per cent and eczema by 38 per cent. They also looked at blood samples from 4,700 primary-school children in Shropshire, and found that raw milk drinkers, most of whom lived on farms, had 60 per cent lower levels of immunoglobulin E - an antibody that the body's immune system pumps out in huge quantities on exposure to an allergen. Levels of histamine, another chemical that is released by cells during an allergic reaction, were halved."

[JaX]

And then there's the question of availability. The caveman went for what was available.

As I travel a lot I simply can't stick with the same foods all the the time so I resort to what I deem is as paleolithic as possible, and what I know agrees with my body the most. I'll resort to raw cheese instead of eating say a bunch of dried fruit.. Not because I'm zero carb but because I know sweet fruits only stimulate my cravings and especially dry fruits mess me up good.

[JaX]

that's a good point avalon. Some people do seem to thrive on raw dairy products long term. Weston Price studied traditional cultures who drank raw milk and who very had good health... Many other traditional cultures use it and have been healthy. AV is a huge proponent of it and there are many others. There are culture where milk and honey is viewed as a healthy nectar..

I have no trouble with raw cheese but do feel a bit bloated if I drink a lot of raw milk. maybe if drank it more I'd get used to it.. Still I don't think it's as optimal a food as organ meats, fatty meats

[van]

  it has been suggested that to jump start the catch 22 involved in digesting milk, one can drink small amounts, increasing slowly, and to include the proper bacteria.  Lactase, the enzyme needed to digest lactose is almost nonexistent in non milk drinking adults, but is a by product of milk digesting bacteria.  the theory is the body utilizes it to further digest more incoming lactose or milk.  And then the stores of lactase will build to handle milk.  Some go so far as to recommend lactobacilus implants from a mixture of lactose and lactobacilus cultures.  I do have experience with this, and can attest to it's effectiveness.  But my experience with goat milk is that everything is fine when the animals are eating lush green and no grain.  But when things turn brown from lack of rain in the late summer and fall, the quality of the milk decreases rapidly and congestion would happen every time or fall.

[TylerDurden]

The trouble with the recommendations re dairy is that it's estimated that c.75% of the world's population are lactose-intolerant. Then there are those who are casein-intolerant, those who have galactosemia(where inability to digest harmful dairy causes brain-damage and, eventually, death) and the many people who've had various auto-immune disorders as a result of drinking dairy(goats' dairy may have lower lactose-levels but still causes plenty of problems for raw-dairy-sufferers like myself, given all the other harmful substances in non-human milk). The argument that raw dairy is healthier is highly dubious - all we have is Weston-Price's vague, totally unsupported assurances. The simple fact is that we are the only species which drinks milk from another animal, and, bizarrely, the only species to drink milk past infancy. Milk from one's own species is specially adapted to that particular species.

In short, I'm all in favour of infants breastfeeding on human milk, re mothers breastfeeding/wet-nursing, but anything else is a bad idea.

[Raw Kyle]

The information clearly shows that dairy is not an optimal human food, but data is an abstract measurement compared to how the food effects you. It is absurd to use data to try and convince someone who is not experiencing any health problems with dairy that in fact they are.

[Satya]

Here lies the rub. Humans do many things, many things, many things unnatural! We fly in planes! We drive in cars! Even bicycles. We floss our teeth! Drink our tea or coffee. How many here drink coffee or tea? I'd actually given it up until drinking some green tea again this last month. Where do you draw the line?

Many people, maybe not tons-o-people, but many people, probably as many as say nay, approve and swear by raw dairy. Where is the bad info about Goat milk? I haven't found it and I've looked. Cow milk? Yes, it seems.

I know, I know Geoff doesn't go for Raw Milk. Still, others do. Tolerate it? Too simple. Some people can drink it with no problem and some can't. I have never had an issue with dairy. Maybe you have and that's okay. I more than tolerate it.

Yes, humans do many unnatural things.  But most of us have found that eating and living a more natural lifestyle has many, many benefits.  I am not the food police.  Eat what you want.  Drink what you want.  Be merry and all that.  My point is that milk is not a Paleolithic era food.  Period.  Not only that, if you've ever been to a real, down-to-earth, small scale farm that raises goats or cows for milk, you will find that this foodstuff is not available year-round.  It is only with intensive, industrially-driven, cruel-beyond-belief "farming" that milk can be obtained at whim.  So while I can go along with the fact that eating some dairy on occasion is not necessarily a bad thing, the idea that people can thrive on it on basically a daily basis year-round is just highly suspect.  Certainly the animals that are forced into an unnaturally long (or even perpetual) lactation aren't thriving. 

[van]

  I would add that my goats, one in particular gave me one half a gallon of milk for over two years.  She was thriving during that time, and now.  So it is possible.  But once again, usually it is done with the use of high protein grains that stimulate milk production. Cows can get up to  30 lbs a day.   There can be a wonderful exchange when milking.  She gives you her milk, and you give her your love and protection/care.  I believe in my situation, my goat knew that.  They are very smart.  Years ago many families had their pet cow or more often goat for food supplies.  The relationship probably was similar then.

[avalon]

Satya wrote:

Not only that, if you've ever been to a real, down-to-earth, small scale farm that raises goats or cows for milk, you will find that this foodstuff is not available year-round.

How many fruits and foods are available all year round without some help?  What Beef or Lamb or Chicken would you eat without a butcher working year round? Okay, I know that was a stretch because many people here are killing and eating their own food. I know that. But there are seasons, and seasons bring different food, so I don't think that is a good argument.

The truth is, and I'm sorry because I didn't want to bring this up... is that only a few Goat Milk drinkers will be allowed on the New Ark. If you are Lacto-intolerant you will remain behind while the earth implodes on itself with big special effects and stuff. I read that in a cave, or was it a dream? I think AV was there. And I was in my panties, but that's another story 

[yon yonson]

i just found some interesting info on the comanche indians. they are/were hunter gathers who consume milk occaisionally (according to wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche

here's the excerpt of note (also has some raw meat info!): "The Comanches sometimes ate raw meat, especially raw liver flavored with gall. They also drank the milk from the slashed udders of buffalo, deer, and elk. Among their delicacies was the curdled milk from the stomachs of suckling buffalo calves, and they also enjoyed buffalo tripe, or stomachs."

seems reasonable to me. obviously, this would have been a rare occurrence but still happened often enough to be mentioned. as seen in my first post in this thread, i suspected that it would be possible to get dairy from lactating female game, but hadn't thought of the calf thing.

anyways, i was looking into this because i recently found a source of grass fed raw goat milk. i bought a half gallon last weekend and am still not half way done with it yet (drinking a small cup of it before bed). it doesn't seem to give me problems if it is allowed to come to room temperature. the first glass i had was still cold and i remember getting some tummy rumbles but nothing beyond that. tastes good though. anyways, i'll keep you guys posted on how it effects me. i don't plan on getting it often but every once in a while.

[DeadRamones]

I wrote about this not to long ago.  Some say that cheese was discovered when a traveler had left out milk inside a bottle(that was made of goat intestine) & he noticed the effect. I wouldn't doubt that in paleo times if there was a carrion of a baby calf. That the fermented milk in it's stomach would of been eaten as well. This is just speculation, of course.

[livingthelife]

It is the digestive enzymes of the baby mammal that cultures the milk and creates cheese. Now this is done in a stainless vat with introduced enzymes - but there's no other way to make cheese. It's not a stretch to assume that cultured milk, discovered inside an immature animal, was the staple "dairy product" of primitive cultures. I've gathered that culturing milk seems to be more widespread in traditional cultures than drinking plain milk.

This is also the theory behind the feeding of ground vegetables in the popular BARF diet for pets - that there would be masticated and partially digested vegetable matter in every kill. Raw grass makes dogs puke, pulped grass keeps them healthy.

[yon yonson]

question: im still working on that half gallon of raw goat milk after two weeks. i've got maybe two or three cups left and was thinking about making yogurt or kefir or something with it. can i just let it sit out of the fridge or do i have to culture it with something? i've left a cup out to warm to room temperature (uncovered) for 24 hours before and it definitely started to curdle and separate. the cream on top was very good and the liquid (whey?) below almost seemed carbonated. so i would think if i just left this out for longer and maybe put a lid on it, it might make some yogurt. anyone know? any other suggestions for what i should do with the rest of the milk?

[TylerDurden]

Well, the obvious suggestion comes to mind:- "throw the stuff away!" But since you won't likely take that advice, I would say just leave it out and it''ll age quickly, and should be fine(but then again, my only experience with fermented dairy was fermenting raw dairy in the fridge for 3-4 days or so).

[livingthelife]

In order to make yogurt you would need to introduce a culture, in order to make kefir you would need to introduce a living kefir colony. These projects require some special conditions and, or course, the live cultures.

I don't know what is going on in little your science experiment    Wikipedia is incorrect that soured milk is the same as cultured milk, though soured milk seems to have been an acceptable ingredient before pasteurized milk was common, at least in cooking recipes. "Waste not want not," I guess.

If you don't have any pigs you could slop, you may have to throw it away.

[livingthelife]

Ooh - better yet, you could wash your skin and hair with it!

[yon yonson]

Well, the obvious suggestion comes to mind:- "throw the stuff away!"

ha, knew that was comin

so, is soured milk bad to just drink? this might be too much information, but i do recall having a pretty weird bowel movement the morning after drinking that soured/cultured glass... oh well, experimentation is good. oh, also, i found out my roomate has some commercial freeze-dried kefir starter culture but the ingredients listed are 'lactic bacteria and yests, skim milk powder.' im sure the skim milk powder is not good quality, but i might try it anyway. also also, he has some good quality pasturized yogurt from a local producer that has live cultures. i might just add a teaspoon of that to see how that works out.