Study finds oxidized (aka "rancid") fish oil to be benign

[PaleoPhil]

"The results of a recent study by Inger Ottestad and colleagues from Norway may thusly surprise the "pro-fish oil"-faction about as much as they surprised me (Ottestad. 2011): The ingestion of 8g of oxidized (peroxide value: 18mEq/kg; ansidine value: 9) fish oil (1.6g EPA+DHA) did not have any unfavorable short term-effects in previously healthy individuals. .... (Some Things Fishy: Oxidized Fish Oil Totally Benign!? Plus: The Inflammatory Side of EPA and Peroxide & Alkenal Levels in Commercial Fish and Vegetable Oils, Adel Moussa,
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/12/some-things-fishy-oxidized-fish-oil.html)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_fish


The throat sting many CLO newbies report is actually a good sign of a quality oil, and for me it diminished down to nothing over time as I got used to the fermented CLO. It started out tasting very nasty and strong to me and now the unflavored CLO/butter-oil combo gel tastes great and mild to me. I still get the throat sting from extra virgin olive oil, because I don't consume as much of that.

"Are you NEW to fermented cod liver oil? Please be aware that the fermented cod liver oil is very strong tasting and due to the enzyme content leaves a tingle in your throat. If you are new to the fermented cod liver oils, we recommend you try the capsules." http://www.drrons.com/additive-free-supplements-product-list.htm

[van]

talking to olive oil producers, in my area, the bite in olive oil is most often a substance that comes out of the skin in the olive.  People actually like the oil with that quality.  It's there from the moment it's pressed or spun.    It doesn't impress me  ( don't have a kinder word than impress at the moment) that you've gotten used to the bite.  People get used to the bite in whiskey...  It was mentioned short term, and they held the same finding for other oils.  To me that alone says something's fishy,,, and who paid for the study? in the first place, or, why was it done?

[PaleoPhil]

And I'm not convinced that a temporary throat sting is necessarily a bad sign, so it's nice to get a different and informed perspective like yours, Van, to challenge my own. I greatly appreciate having someone put my speculations through fiery trials.

Whiskey and other alcoholic beverages can also be hormetically beneficial for some people, which I've written about in other threads, so that's another good sign. Do you think there's anything to the notion that "the dose makes the poison" or Nietzsche's "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"? Why couldn't there be potential benefits from medicinal/hormetic doses of RFCLO? Even if RFCLO is purely toxic, that could actually be a reason for it to be medicinally/hormetically beneficial (http://gettingstronger.org/hormesis), rather than harmful at any dose.

I consider studies more potential small clues within the bigger picure than solid proof. They can suggest that more inquiry may be warranted, and are particularly intriguing when they contradict common modern assumptions and fit with thousands or millions of years of tradition, experience and biology. They are a starting point, rather than a final answer. When it comes down to it, our individual experience is the final arbiter (also bearing in mind potential long-term risks).

Your point about the funding of the study is well taken. Unsurprisingly, it's a Norwegian cooperative that sells fish oil, TINE SA ((https://oda.hio.no/jspui/bitstream/10642/1011/2/ulven_bjnutr-2011.pdf). Who else but a fish oil seller would fund a fish oil study? TINE SA could discount a negative finding of oxidation of fish oil if they wished by taking measures such as including antioxidants in the oil. So it wouldn't be the end of the world for them if some harm had been found from oxidation. The fact that another study found no beneficial effect on plasma lipid peroxides from adding antioxidants to fish oil (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9930401) matches the results of this study that oxidation of fish oil is more a theoretical problem than a real one. FWIW, the authors of this TINE-funded study claimed they have no financial interest in the cooperative, though funding sources are effectively a potential conflict of interest.

In my personal experience, I haven't noticed any ill effects from raw fermented CLO and it appears to have beneficial effects on my dental health. Raw fermented CLO is also a traditional food (http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/update-on-cod-liver-oil-manufacture) that goes back centuries, and raw fermented fish and raw fermented fish sauce (aka Worcestershire sauce, garum) go back even farther. Now we also have some research matching personal experience and tradition, albeit funded by a seller of the food (as with most food studies).

Granted, RFCLO has been just one small part of my broader approach and I don't take it every day, in case that might deplete my own body's ability to produce vitamins A and D (http://gettingstronger.org/2012/11/why-i-dont-take-vitamin-d-supplements), so I don't follow the recommendations of the biggest promoters of fish oils to consume them in daily megadoses. I use RFCLO and raw fermented fish in more fractal/intermittent/hormetic ways, as foodlements rather than chronic supplements.

Do you have any evidence of harm from RFCLO or other fermented fish foods beyond a temporary throat sting (which I personally enjoyed and now miss), or studies that contradict the above studies? I even got some of the throat sting the first time I tried fresh raw sardines, and I don't consider them harmful because of that, do you?

[van]

I have to admit that I am sure some of bias comes purely from what I have read about pufa's and how easily they oxidize.   BUT,   let me challenge you the more.. 
    I used to buy barleens flax seed oil.   I would buy and have it sent second day air,, the day after it was pressed,,  Pretty fresh.  It was very tasty, sweet, enjoyable.  I would then put it in my fridge, and two weeks later, it would bite the back of my throat.    Number two.  Many years ago you used to be able to buy Seven Day Fresh wheat germ, that was milled and shipped by ups to health food stores.   I was buying some out of the cooler/bulk when I noticed the ups guy delivering another tub of it right then.  I then had the fortune to taste wheat germ that was seven days old (literally) and then the next second, standing right there in front of the cooler doing this taste comparison, taste the wheat germ that was only one day old.  HUGE difference!   And again, the seven day old bit the back of my throat.  The one day old didn't and was sweet like heavily sugared cereal for kids.     Number three.   I mentioned hanging sliced fresh salmon in my fridge to dry out and eat later.  One week had passed.  The oil of the fish (salmon oil) dripped from the drying shrinking fish on a plate below.  I thought Yummy.   But no, there was now a bite in the throat.   I spent almost a year convinced that I needed to find and take fish oil for the high efa's and dha's.  I scoured the world, literally.  I got a bottle from I think Norway, wild caught, under 100 f processed, and processed within the week, specially shipped to me, and the same thing with the throat.  I am sure you can process it not to do that, add enough synthetic vit E or whatever, but all the trials I've had with high pufa's oils have led me to believe they oxidize.  And why wouldn't the same be true for cod livers, thrown into a barrel, and left to sit for months.   And what really is fermenting.  Cod livers are my guess like other livers, containing carbs that bacteria break down and ferment.  The same description could be said about bacteria breaking down proteins.  But I haven't heard of something that actually ferments oil??  Maybe you know?   My guess is the ferments from the carbs and proteins are tainting the oil, not unlike garlic in oil, or vinegar in oil (balsamic types) and that is why they call it fermented,, giving it some sort of predigested marketing theme?   
    Whiskey.  May be good in some quantities, but my point is 'we' get used to things/foods that are not beneficial,, hence instinctive nutrition practices.   We can override our instinct and learn to live with or like certain foods.     Yes, I could have overridden my throat burning experiences, but something was yelling at me saying NO.   When I start to not obey those messages, I lose my faith in what's really good for me. 
   And of course,  my guess is that a vit D difficiency,  a major one,  is worse having than a possibly small amount of inflation from oxidized oils in one's body.     But that's why I have ducks, 3x higher in Vit D than chicken eggs, and always eat grass fed fat.     
   
     Thanks for the detailed response,   Van

[goodsamaritan]

Do you have any evidence of harm from RFCLO or other fermented fish foods beyond a temporary throat sting (which I personally enjoyed and now miss), or studies that contradict the above studies? I even got some of the throat sting the first time I tried fresh raw sardines, and I don't consider them harmful because of that, do you?

I also ate fresh raw sardines, maybe it was off the boat same day and they were all delicious, no throat sting.  Of course there may be variations with our geography and taste.

As far as fish oil products as "benign"... "benign" makes the fish oil products NOT USEFUL for healing then.

It's like the heated debate I had with my old healer in 2007 when she was freaking out about me giving my psoriasis dying and shivering cold brother capsulized fish oil from a popular international brand.  I followed her rant and bought 1/2 kilo of fresh raw tuna sashimi instead.  My brother ate the raw fish for lunch.  And in 24 hours he stopped shivering and felt warm.

That healing episode convinced me of the power of raw fresh food over capsulized supplements.

Maybe if the consumer is so deprived in his area that there can be no source of raw fish for months he can try capsulized fish oil.

Personally in my family because of my brother's experience, we never bought fish oil capsules since the 2007 incident.

[van]

 a couple of items I forgot,,     drying egg yolks in the fridge,,  simply laying the unbroken egg yolk on a small plate and letting the low humidity dry out the egg.  A couple of months went by, it was quite dry, and same thing, big bite in the throat.   

      I am somewhat puzzled by some assumptions that just because ancient eskimos did this or that, doesn't mean it's good for us.  Same with plains Indians making pemican, boiling the fat etc...  (sorry, don't want to start that debate again)  it's just that it is so easy to pick and choose what we think is wisdom or health giving and miss the possible fact that maybe they simply did it 'that way' to stay alive when food was scarce, as with pemican,, or spoiled fish stuck in a hole, or burning seal oil to stay warm in their igloo  coating their lungs with the 'soot'.... 

[Inger]

I think like Van, the fresher the better. Only maybe high meat (which is always made from meat with no fat on it) I do believe is beneficial. I do think we can survive on a bit rancid stuff too.. I eat a bit old fish and beef fat at times myself because I have no other. But that is different. I do it only because I get no better, if I would I would always choose fresh fat, especially by fatty fish.. and nuts also..

Stuff like pemmican is great for surviving and certainly way better than any man made food you can buy today in stores. But I bet if they could have gotten fresh they would have preferred that.

Fresh food just makes so much more sense, as the longer you store something, the more vitamins and such disappear....

[cherimoya_kid]

     ...I am somewhat puzzled by some assumptions that just because ancient eskimos did this or that, doesn't mean it's good for us....

It wouldn't surprise me at all if highly fermented meat/fat are much less of a problem in a cold, mostly sunless place like a north Alaska winter.  Certainly I've noticed (as have many others) that fermentation tends to increase the "heating" potential of a food; specifically, fermenting the food before eating it generally helps the food to warm you up, physically, more so than just eating it un-fermented.  Certainly this would be an argument for fermentation (including perhaps fermentation of fats) being better in colder climates. 

I bet there's a connection between being in a dark place and being able to tolerate oxidized fats better, as well. Just a guess.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the additional challenge and for sharing your experience, Van. OK, let's say that oxidation or some other negative effect causes the bite. Is it not possible that these oxidants/effect could have a beneficial hormetic/medicinal result in limited quantities/frequency and isn't it too soon to assume that the consequences must only be negative? Do you think that our ancestors were highly negatively sensitive to meat or fat that wasn't fresh and if so, wouldn't that have undercut their ability to survive?
   
I'm guessing bacteria, but whatever it is, it does appear to do it. The Inuit people reported that they have long used fermentation to preserve seal oil. The Inuit and Chuckchi regard fermented fatty fish and sea mammals as healthy food, rather than unhealthy, and the Romans and Asians regarded fermented fish sauce as healthy. Do you think they were all terribly misguided based on your temporary throat sting? Do you have any evidence to support your negative view beyond that? Have you experienced any other more serious effects? Do you think these peoples only ate fermented fatty fish/oil/sauces because of a marketing scheme?

I see that we agree that even poisons can be medicinal in certain quantities. Yes, it's possible to get used to foods that are not beneficial in large amounts, so that is something to be aware of. It seems that heating and refining foods makes it easier to overdo it, for whatever reason.

Nothing yelled at me to say no to RFCLO or RF fish. On the contrary, it yelled "YES!" at me and within a short time--"yum! yum!" Even at first, when I wasn't fond of the taste, I found it strangely appealing. I liked the "kick" it gave me. Sort of like eating lemons or horseradish. Some people say "Yuck!" but I do not regard those foods as unhealthy in reasonable quantities. I rely on experience more than faith.

I am somewhat puzzled by some assumptions that just because ancient eskimos did this or that, doesn't mean it's good for us.

I'm not making that assumption, I just don't see how we can attribute what they did to marketing, rather than experience and tradition, do you? Do you think your interpretation of your throat sting experience completely disproves their experiences and traditions? In my case, I enjoy the throat sting when it happens, so I'm not understanding why I should assume that it's entirely negative.

What is your opinion on fermented, aged and cultured meats (such as high meat), cheeses, fruits (such as durian, one of the fattiest fruits, which experienced Filipinos claim is best when very ripe and stinky/fermented, and fermented avocadoa/gaucamole) and veggies? Are these also bad? If not, why the difference? Some of these also contain significant amounts of fats, albeit usually in lower percentages.

[van]

All good points Phil.    I think it boils down to for me, is my gut response, since the verdict is not out, at least as I can see, on oxidized fats.   I will reiterate again, peoples have smoked this or that for hundreds of years not knowing it was harmful.  But my guess is the first time they tried it, they coughed.  I know I did.  Pretty good warning the body is giving.   Culture usually wins out.    As far as fermented animal products by different cultures,,, there probably is a good deal of benefit, ie, bacteria, predigested protein, and of course an ongoing supply of food.     In nature, I think, it's pretty rare for animals to eat weeks or months old fat.  It's taken right away with the organs.  I watch my dogs love it and gobble it down first, if separated from the meat.   So, in nature, I think it's an exception rather than the rule that animals developed eating it.   Predators in the sea have the same immediate feeding of the whole specie.  Whales, seals, birds,,, all eat the whole animal immediately.    Even buzzards pretty much finish an animal within days of the initial kill or death of an animal.   Again, the fat on a dead animal is a precious commodity,, eaten right away.     
     I still don't understand the notion of fermented oils in general.  I get it if the oil is accompanying a protein or carb.  But if you take pure oil, can you ferment it, ie, what's the fermenting agent?   Or, does it just oxidize in it's pure state?  Again, is 'fermented' oil simply tainted oil from the mixed proteins and carbs during the process?

[eveheart]

     I still don't understand the notion of fermented oils in general.  I get it if the oil is accompanying a protein or carb.  But if you take pure oil, can you ferment it, ie, what's the fermenting agent?   Or, does it just oxidize in it's pure state?  Again, is 'fermented' oil simply tainted oil from the mixed proteins and carbs during the process?

Fermented cod liver oil describes the method of extracting the oil - the whole liver is rotted away in a barrel so that the oil separates out when everything turns to mush.

The other way of getting the oil out of the liver is to cook the liver and let the oil separate in the heat.

I've never thought much about the way each method affects the oil itself, but the FCLO production does not involve cooking.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Van. I already guessed that bacteria is the fermenting agent of fats, and that appears to have been correct. I even found the key bacteria specified: "The key lactic-acid bacteria involved in the fermentation of cod liver oil are Lactobacillus plantarum and Lactobacillus sakei." http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/162/health-benefits-lactic-acid-bacteria-food/

Rare in nature does not necessarily mean harmful. Other naturally fermented ("rotted") foods like honey and fruit are also relatively rare in nature compared to other foods, and they are also loved and gobbled up quickly when encountered, and you already accepted that there probably is a good deal of benefit from naturally fermented foods, such as via beneficial bacteria. Why single out fermented fats for suspicion?

[van]

Phil,  I still question whether the pure oil would 'ferment' is innocculated with the aforementioned bacteria.  Or, is the bacteria fermenting the carbs and protein in the livers and tainting the oil,, as does oil in garlic and oil dressings get tainted by the garlic?  This method may simply be a convenient and easy way to separate the oil.    I underscore fats explicitly because of their potential to oxidize and cause free radical damage when ingested.  I don't believe that the carbs in fruit and honey have that potential. 

[RogueFarmer]

I have gotten in the habit of setting my meat out to age for a day or two to age and dry as I like the flavor much better. Just found out though that warm temperatures don't make this work out so well. I had forgotten about some short ribs and when I finally got to them they almost smelled fowl. I took a bite and a maggot crawled out. There was a big 20 second hesitation and a crushed maggot. I figured that I wouldn't get sick but this was my last chance but it was the first time in a long tim that I was hoping not to get sick eating raw meat. Feelin good feelin fine.

[PaleoPhil]

Why would beneficial bacteria "taint" oil, Van? The method of RFCLO making is allegedly the natural method. You can even make your own fermented fish (what the Inuit call "stinkfish"). I like the bit of sting/zing I get from them, but be careful to never store them in the plastic fish often come in for more than a day, as plastic does a nasty number on fish.

As I explained, a certain amount of oxidants (and antioxidants) may have beneficial hormetic effects (and my speculation is that incorporating both expands the hormetic range and thus maximizes the potential for benefits). Raw fermented/aged/cultured fish, CLO, meat, fruit, cheese, fruits, veggies, honey--I eat them all. Still, if they might cause you worry, then I would avoid them, because the worry would probably do more harm than the good of the hormesis. I'm not worried about it myself, but then I'm a mad "scientist". 

[cherimoya_kid]

I would assume that the "bite" from oxidized oil is from the extra oxygen.  It's a very similar feeling to the one that you get from drinking dilute hydrogen peroxide, whose chemical formula has twice as much oxygen as regular water.

[PaleoPhil]

Interesting. I use hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash and swallowed some once out of curiosity and didn't notice any throat bite (just belching and a mild stomachache).

[cherimoya_kid]

Interesting. I use hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash and swallowed some once out of curiosity and didn't notice any throat bite (just belching and a mild stomachache).

to be honest, yours may have already mostly decomposed into regular water. Peroxide has a relatively short shelf life because of its tendency to do that.

I used to buy the lab-grade stuff, extremely pure stuff, straight from Carolina Biological, and it definitely bites.  A lot of people I know who use it for heavy metal detox comment on the bite.

[jessica]

van, you mention the "bite" from salmon.  its interesting to note that frozen salmon has totally done this to me, and suiren talks about how salmon gives her a weird feeling in her throat in one of her threads.  would have never tied it to oxidation but am also noticing pattern of that same feeling from barleans, as well as raw hemp seed butter.

[PaleoPhil]

And don't forget EVOO, I find that gourmet versions of that can give a bite too.

The Healthy Home Economist claimed that the bite is from the lactic acid from the probiotic bacteria:
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/video-how-to-best-swallow-cod-liver-oil/

[van]

Phil,  so yes, I am still not headed in the direction of fermented oils.   And maybe you just don't know, I don't, but there's the question again, does pure oil ferment?  I doubt it.  So if the oil you like has ferments it's most likely from the protein, or carbs....  If so, they should really call it cod oil from a fermentation process, rather than fermented cod liver oil.  People are so quick to go to fermented this or that with all the talk of probiotics.    Check out the new post about an alternative cod liver oil.  Seems a bit of a coincidence?      Oh, and I have made lots of different fermented foods over the years,, none of them ever claim close to biting my throat.     I think after living on fat, really fresh, fresh fat, for so many years now,  my palate is well trained.    Again, it's the same bite I get when letting salmon hang in a fridge for a week or two.    There's no fermentation  going on there.   So, I'm going to let this go.   Oh, except  in reading the linked article in the alternative clo,,  pay attention to how desperate or attached the mother was to have her secret potion to stay healthy.   That's why I say people will take anything (almost) if they believe it will keep them healthy. 

[PaleoPhil]

Dealer's choice. Believe what you will about RFCLO or why people take it. I haven't seen any evidence presented other than a throat sting, so I'm still open to the possibility that certain amounts of fermented fatty foods, or fatty foods produced via fermentation, could be OK, even if the fat itself doesn't ferment. I haven't noticed any harm myself and my dental health has improved (though that could be mostly or solely due to other factors--it's difficult to separate out dietary variables completely). I don't use it every day like some proponents do, so maybe that's how I've avoided harm.

So would you also not eat high meat, very ripe durian, raw fatty fish sauces (garum, traditional Worcestershire, ...), stinkhead, stinkflipper, and so on that also contain significant fat, that presumably could also oxidize?

[eveheart]

...there's the question again, does pure oil ferment?  I doubt it.  So if the oil you like has ferments it's most likely from the protein, or carbs....  If so, they should really call it cod oil from a fermentation process, rather than fermented cod liver oil.  People are so quick to go to fermented this or that with all the talk of probiotics.

Van, I wrote this question to Blue Ice FCLO's company, GreenPasture.org. I ferment stuff, too, and I agree that oil, under any condition I know of, simply does not ferment. I have assumed that they mean fermented-cod-liver oil, not fermented-oil from cod-liver. Their ad copy says that the fermenting "imparts a natural enzymatic, acidic activity", which accounts for the acidic feel on the throat. Overall, catalysts called enzymes suggest raw, uncooked, unheated. The process they described is cod oil from a fermentation process. Like all good ad copy, the truth lies between the lines. I am interested to see if they actually give a pertinent clarification.

[PaleoPhil]

That's interesting, Eveheart. Thanks for the info. I'll bet your guess is right about what they mean.

Van, it looks like you're right about the carbs and proteins being the food for the bacteria in the CLO, so I'll try to remember to refer to it as RF-produced-CLO (RFPCLO) for clarity. Do you think the fact that the fats apparently don't ferment themselves is evidence that harm will come from limited amounts of these traditional fermented/aged foods that contain fats? Sure, I can imagine theoretical possible harm via oxidation, if it should turn out that all humans have very low tolerances for oxidation, but where's the evidence that it actually happens? I can also imagine theoretical possible benefit from hormetic pro-oxidants. And so far my experience isn't showing any clearly ill effects from the RFPCLO, and maybe even benefits.

I don't remember if I posted this already, but Todd Becker speculated that much of the benefits found from omega-3 fatty acids may actually be hormetic, rather than the fats being themselves uber-healthy. It does make sense not to overdo it on PUFAs or long-stored fish, high meat, fatty fruit, etc. It just seems premature to close the book on the possibility of hormesis.

[eveheart]

I googled a few phrases about fermentation of fat and came up with this from our own forum!!

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/possible-to-ferment-fat/msg29722/#msg29722
Yes from a technical point of view pure fatty acids definitely cannot be fermented.

Because fermentation means anaerobic catabolism and degradation as a consequence of microorganism activity and fatty acids must be oxidized i.e. need the presence of oxygen to be used as fuel or for other purposes.

Pure fat is actually an excellent means to preserve food, for instance in pemmican (or traditional "confit d'oie ou de canard" here in France), because it cannot be used by anaerobic microorganisms. Only carbs can be readily used in these conditions, which is by the way also the reason why even carnivores must either eat or produce a minimum of carbs from amino acids and glycerol in the form of glucose and glycogen to be able to face the need of short and intense muscular activity. A conversion process that by itself costs energy and produces waste such as urea.   

In the strictest sense, fermentation is an anaerobic activity, whether we are talking about fermentation of food or fermentation in cellular respiration. Of course, there is no reason to be strict, so we use fermentation loosely to describe aerobic bacterial breakdown of meat when we talk about "high meat."

Also, it is possible to breakdown fat with bacteria - this process is used all the time in the food industry when they treat waste fats from cooking with fat-gobbling bacteria or when they clean up industrial oil spills with oil-gobbling bacteria. However, if we broke down food fats with "fermenting" bacteria, I get the sense that we would no longer even have a fat, just some biodegraded bacterial sludge.