Author Topic: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!  (Read 34312 times)

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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2013, 03:35:34 am »

There are many issues at play I'm sure and looking over his past posts he mentions a lot in passing how cooked meats are better for him than raw. Nobody ever addressed it. I sadly still can't help but question; troll?

I don't care if he's a troll.  He didn't hang around to let us help him, so I assume he wants a quick fix, instead of getting at the root of the problem.  Therefore, who cares what he does?

Offline Barefoot Instincto

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2013, 04:06:03 am »
His fitness level must also be taken into account. There is no mention of this, and yet it is an extremely critical part of health. A lot of effort (not even so much as time, but effort) needs to be put into it, and in the right ways. Otherwise you're just prone to break down because you're not struggling to get better.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2013, 04:25:43 am »
He's a real person, not a troll: I spoke with him on the phone about a week ago.  ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2013, 04:27:31 am »
I'd imagine whats likely is his gut bacterias messed up. Sometimes the only way it can be corrected is fecal transplant.

Humans are really hardy. As long as we have really good gut bacteria, and breathe to the best of our ability, problems are kept at bay even with a very limited range of food. Also what I think is critical is to have a very high nutrient to calorie ratio. Gotta reaaaaally make them count. Some days that ratio needs to be very highly swayed in the nutrients direction (i.e. restricted eating fasting).

Also is mentioned the fact that he doesn't eat vegetables, and only fruits. This seems really wrong to me. This comes back to the "high nutrient versus calories" point once again. Tolerance likely just needed to be built up slowly, and with only certain kinds of vegetables.

Animal foods are far more nutritious than plant foods
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2013, 04:32:18 am »
I know it takes time to build the correct mitochondria for digesting fat.

What have mitochondria got to do with fat digestion?
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2013, 04:39:52 am »
I hope Löwenherz has well recovered, and yes, I think it’s wise for him to have gone to cooked paleo. Cooked or mostly cooked paleo may well be safer than a rough individual experiment of a 100% raw paleo diet on an uncleared path in the jungle. 

Are you in favour of cooked foods these days? I noticed your advice to cook trout livers and hearts on another thread.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2013, 04:58:44 am »
No, not at all! But if some food is not all right, it should not be eaten, even more so raw. Do it properly or don’t do it.   ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2013, 05:30:13 am »
Yes I agree, if isn't good enough to eat raw then it shouldn't be eaten at all.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Barefoot Instincto

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2013, 05:31:30 am »
Animal foods are far more nutritious than plant foods

They're also very high in calories. You missed my point. In addition to, yes, very nutritious animal foods, you can also accrue a large amount of nutrition and chemicals through extremely low calorie (basically nothing) but highly health preserving vegetables.

The more nutrients you can take in, in the form of whole food, while not jacking up your calories more than they should be, the better. This is how you further lengthen the gap between nutrient intake and energy intake. In this regard, vegetables are a highly valuable food source. I eat pounds of it most days.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2013, 05:38:09 am »
Yes I agree, if isn't good enough to eat raw then it shouldn't be eaten at all.

totally agree with you guys in theory, and trying to get there, but finding carbs so helpful, but i'm not finding many i can eat raw :( ... they go right through me, so to get some carbs taht will stay in me, i've experimented with some steamed or cooked and it works so much better atm.   -\

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2013, 05:55:07 am »
Have you tried bananas?  I find overripe organic bananas (mushy ripe) to be VERY digestible.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2013, 09:21:46 am »
i was afraid to bc gs says they're 'mutant' :D
i did last weekend after reading one of paleophil's post, get a plantain. i'm still waiting for it to get ripe, or overripe.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2013, 09:45:58 am »
What have mitochondria got to do with fat digestion?

I read it in Lex's journal. Maybe he used the word mitochondria instead of bacteria. But he only used mitochondria when referring to fat digestion specifically. I probably assumed too much or misunderstood.

They're also very high in calories. You missed my point. In addition to, yes, very nutritious animal foods, you can also accrue a large amount of nutrition and chemicals through extremely low calorie (basically nothing) but highly health preserving vegetables.

The more nutrients you can take in, in the form of whole food, while not jacking up your calories more than they should be, the better. This is how you further lengthen the gap between nutrient intake and energy intake. In this regard, vegetables are a highly valuable food source. I eat pounds of it most days.

But what about anti-nutrients? What about organ meats? What about mineral balance rather than high numbers; i.e. a 1:1 ratio of calcium-magnesium?

The nutrient density thing seems to me like it has been blown out of the water by the sheer amount of people eating so few veggies on a meat heavy RPD, with health problems declining. That's not to say we don't need them. It's just they are seasonal in the wild and therefore, IMO, should be so for us. We don't get plant matter year-round, in fact we usually only get it about 4-5 months out of the year AT BEST, definitely not in the wild.

Nutrient density seems to be promoted most by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. His recipe of 'Health=nutrients/calories' seems a little in favor of raw veganism. In fact it disregards adequate fueling altogether. He puts all meat (except salmon and a few low-fat white fish) into the category of detrimental to health. He says meat should be a condiment; 10% of your plate size. He puts anti-nutrient rich greens at the top of his health list; wheat grass, spinach, winter squash (not terribly anti-nutrient filled but starches are still being explored), and many others I can't remember right now. I always wondered why we had so many problems with nutrients in my family, we ate so many veggies but still felt lacking. Anti-nutrients explains it all.

The calorie vs. nutrient thing seems a little bogus IMO when dealing with raw foods. Nutrients are great, but like calories, we only need what we need, any excess is damaging. It seems on a raw meat diet you need far fewer nutrients and IMO that's because of that lack of anti-nutrients you are consuming.

He's a real person, not a troll: I spoke with him on the phone about a week ago.  ;)

Okay. Fair enough. He's certainly allowed to live his life and chose the way he wants. I won't question it anymore ;)

-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2013, 03:21:53 pm »
They're also very high in calories. You missed my point. In addition to, yes, very nutritious animal foods, you can also accrue a large amount of nutrition and chemicals through extremely low calorie (basically nothing) but highly health preserving vegetables.

The more nutrients you can take in, in the form of whole food, while not jacking up your calories more than they should be, the better. This is how you further lengthen the gap between nutrient intake and energy intake. In this regard, vegetables are a highly valuable food source. I eat pounds of it most days.

Our Paleolithic ancestors almost certainly would have foraged by the laws of optimal foraging theory ie. spend as few calories as possible to obtain as many calories as possible.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2013, 03:23:35 pm »
i was afraid to bc gs says they're 'mutant' :D
i did last weekend after reading one of paleophil's post, get a plantain. i'm still waiting for it to get ripe, or overripe.

Plantains are one of the best varieties of bananas, very fulfilling. One only? That is a very tiny sample!  In a case such as yours, it is probably necessary to test the broadest possible choice: sugar cane, bee pollen, sweet potatoes, yacon, mulberries,  prickly pears, various varieties of bananas in different ripeness state, sapodillas, cherimoyas kids and adults, dates, any wild fruits, etc, etc.

That is the approach that has given tremendously good results over 40 years on hundreds of people, a path much safer than trying to move forward in a self-cleared, one’s own path in the jungle or just following a single person’s experiment as Löwenherz did, I’m afraid.   
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 10:10:11 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2013, 09:44:29 pm »
I read it in Lex's journal. Maybe he used the word mitochondria instead of bacteria. But he only used mitochondria when referring to fat digestion specifically. I probably assumed too much or misunderstood.

But what about anti-nutrients? What about organ meats? What about mineral balance rather than high numbers; i.e. a 1:1 ratio of calcium-magnesium?

The nutrient density thing seems to me like it has been blown out of the water by the sheer amount of people eating so few veggies on a meat heavy RPD, with health problems declining. That's not to say we don't need them. It's just they are seasonal in the wild and therefore, IMO, should be so for us. We don't get plant matter year-round, in fact we usually only get it about 4-5 months out of the year AT BEST, definitely not in the wild.

Nutrient density seems to be promoted most by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. His recipe of 'Health=nutrients/calories' seems a little in favor of raw veganism. In fact it disregards adequate fueling altogether. He puts all meat (except salmon and a few low-fat white fish) into the category of detrimental to health. He says meat should be a condiment; 10% of your plate size. He puts anti-nutrient rich greens at the top of his health list; wheat grass, spinach, winter squash (not terribly anti-nutrient filled but starches are still being explored), and many others I can't remember right now. I always wondered why we had so many problems with nutrients in my family, we ate so many veggies but still felt lacking. Anti-nutrients explains it all.

The calorie vs. nutrient thing seems a little bogus IMO when dealing with raw foods. Nutrients are great, but like calories, we only need what we need, any excess is damaging. It seems on a raw meat diet you need far fewer nutrients and IMO that's because of that lack of anti-nutrients you are consuming.

Okay. Fair enough. He's certainly allowed to live his life and chose the way he wants. I won't question it anymore ;)



Nutrient density definitely matters.  The higher Brix a specific piece of fruit is, the more nutrients that it usually contains, especially minerals.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2013, 09:47:00 pm »
i was afraid to bc gs says they're 'mutant' :D


I do prefer heirloom/niche varieties of banana, like the burro or quadrato bananas that you can get in Costa Rica, or the apple bananas you can get in Hawaii.  However, the fears of bananas are WAY overblown.  I stick to the organic ones, and I do fine. 

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2013, 10:42:08 pm »
I tested my BG an hour after eating just 2 small super-ripe black skinned plantains and it had spiked to 185 mg/dl. I didn't notice any negative symptoms, and thus wouldn't have known that my BG spiked badly if I hadn't tested, so it may a good precaution to test one's BG when trying new foods.

Since then I've been peeling most of my plantains while green and drying them, to minimize the sugar. This is also supposed to detoxify them and also maximize the resistant starch (RS) content. RS is supposed to improve insulin sensitivity (among other benefits) and my general BG readings have improved some since I started consuming raw potato starch, which is very high in RS.

The plantains don't taste as good this way, but oddly not too bad. Sort of like a bland banana cracker. I like dried mushrooms, which have a somewhat similar taste and texture so maybe that help explain why I don't mind these. I think I'll also try dipping them in raw egg and using them like crackers with raw cheese.

I also let some plantains ripen a bit before drying, to give some sweetness. I limit my intake of these.

Some hopeful news - a Filipino scientist has developed a natural treatment to fight Panama disease in banana plants:
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/260412/scitech/science/filipino-discovers-cure-for-dreaded-banana-diseases
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2013, 11:34:32 pm »
Nutrient density definitely matters.  The higher Brix a specific piece of fruit is, the more nutrients that it usually contains, especially minerals.

Not speaking for any other fruit or for anything other than brix, but most well-grown non-organic cherries have far higher brix counts than their organic counterparts. Idk if that correlates into better mineral content or what. However some of the toxicity (however much that is at the end result, again idk) may reduce the difference in higher mineral content.

It would be interesting to know what weighs out to healthier.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2013, 11:44:40 pm »
I tested my BG an hour after eating just 2 small super-ripe black skinned plantains and it had spiked to 185 mg/dl. I didn't notice any negative symptoms, and thus wouldn't have known that my BG spiked badly if I hadn't tested, so it may a good precaution to test one's BG when trying new foods.

What does BG stands for? Blood Glucose?  Is it a problem if it spikes while producing no negative symptoms? Sorry to have to ask, but as an hominid living in paleolithic times, I don't know ;) :) . What should have happened to me when I ate not only 2, but 4 - 5 (or perhaps more) super ripe plantains?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2013, 12:54:32 am »
What does BG stands for? Blood Glucose?  Is it a problem if it spikes while producing no negative symptoms? Sorry to have to ask, but as an hominid living in paleolithic times, I don't know ;) :) . What should have happened to me when I ate not only 2, but 4 - 5 (or perhaps more) super ripe plantains?

That's a point,,  what's the problem if it's not apparent.    But I see it differently.  The problem isn't short term, but long term repeated spikes of glucose.  One would truly have to have an interest here to follow up with learning about insulin resistance, hormonal effects, etc.    And again, I think a lot has to do with genetics; not everyone is going to show the effects the same from blood sugar spikes.    If you want to go back to what our ancestors did ( as if that's a blueprint for optimal health)  in most locations of the world, excepting the jungles where fruit is abundant, blood sugar spikes would come for a very short period of each year, when fruit ripened.  And then it beneficial in that it helped put weight on (insulin response to high blood sugar) for the coming winter when food would be less abundant.   Contrast that to spiking bg on a daily basis, for the rest of your life.  Our ancestors didn't import fruit nor cultivate it. 

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2013, 01:02:29 am »
Not speaking for any other fruit or for anything other than brix, but most well-grown non-organic cherries have far higher brix counts than their organic counterparts. Idk if that correlates into better mineral content or what. However some of the toxicity (however much that is at the end result, again idk) may reduce the difference in higher mineral content.

It would be interesting to know what weighs out to healthier.

Yes, it's true that you can find convetionally-grown produce that is higher Brix than the organic versions. 

As to which is healthier, that's probably on a case-by-case basis, depending on the person, the chemicals, the amount of lifetime exposure, etc..

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2013, 03:16:17 am »
What does BG stands for? Blood Glucose?  Is it a problem if it spikes while producing no negative symptoms? Sorry to have to ask, but as an hominid living in paleolithic times, I don't know ;) :) . What should have happened to me when I ate not only 2, but 4 - 5 (or perhaps more) super ripe plantains?
Yup, blood glucose. Not everyone's BG spikes throughout the year after eating certain fruits or other carby foods, so it may not be natural or healthy in every context. For example:

Quote
"Insulin doesn't clear all the glucose as it enters the bloodstream, however. Some of it does accumulate, leading to a spike in blood glucose. This usually doesn't exceed 130 mg/dL in a truly healthy person, and even if it approaches that level it's only briefly. ...

In South America, different investigators studied a group of native Americans in central Brazil that subsist primarily on cassava (a starchy root crop) and freshwater fish. Average blood glucose one hour after a 100g OGTT was 94 mg/dl, and only 2 out of 106 people tested had a reading over 160 mg/dL" - Stephan Guyenet, PhD, http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/11/glucose-tolerance-in-non-industrial.html

"1hr pp BG is 160 - that could be pre-diabetes, BUT IT MAY IMPROVE ON HIGHER CARB INTAKE!" - Dr. Kurt Harris, http://www.blogger.com/profile/16581622438291732724
If you're OK with post-prandial BG spiking above 180 mg/dl, that's your choice. Given my history of poor carb tolerance and health issues, I'm erring on the side of caution.

What should have happened to me when I ate not only 2, but 4 - 5 (or perhaps more) super ripe plantains?
I can't possibly know, nor can you without testing. Just because we don't notice obvious symptoms doesn't guarantee that no damage is occurring at the cellular level. I'm not saying that it is, just including it as another piece of info and trying to avoid excessive spikes if I can.

Contrast that to spiking bg on a daily basis, for the rest of your life.  Our ancestors didn't import fruit nor cultivate it.
Yes, not our pre-agrarian HG ancestors, anyway.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2013, 05:48:31 am »
(…), excepting the jungles where fruit is abundant (…) for the coming winter when food would be less abundant. (…) Our ancestors didn't import fruit nor cultivate it. 
Why would they have to import fruit if they lived in tropical jungles where fruit is abundant whole year round as there is no such thing as winter in the tropics? Significant human population of Europe and other temperate regions occurred only after the mastery of fire.
This topic has been discussed and addressed ad nauseum on various threads. GS mentioned in a post I’m unable to find again that when the Spaniards came to Philippines, fruits were extremely abundant.

And…
A few weeks ago I talked on the phone with one of the three “instincto” guys who went in exploration without taking any food supplies into the primary rain forest where the orangutans live. I’m not sure if it was in Sumatra or in Borneo, I should ask him again but he lives in Jakarta and he was only shortly in France.

Anyway… I asked him what they found to eat in this jungle. He said they ate almost only fruits, various species of unknown wild fruits and he said it was not a problem because their trip lasted only 10 days. The fruits were high in the trees, so they had to climb after having thrown a rope.

And last week a met the father of an instincto family who lived  half a year in French Guyana. I also asked him what food they found in the Amazonian primary forest. He said there is about 150 different species of wild fruits, also all high in the trees.

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2013, 05:58:31 am »
Why would they have to import fruit if they lived in tropical jungles where fruit is abundant whole year round as there is no such thing as winter in the tropics? Significant human population of Europe and other temperate regions occurred only after the mastery of fire.
This topic has been discussed and addressed ad nauseum on various threads. GS mentioned in a post I’m unable to find again that when the Spaniards came to Philippines, fruits were extremely abundant.

And…

Our ancestors left the tropical jungles about 6 to 7 million years ago and since then progressively increased their animal food intake, whilst reducing their plant food intake.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

 

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