Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!

[Löwenherz]

It's my duty to share my very disappointing experiences of the last months with you.

I got massive health problems on my raw paleo low carb diet. At the beginning I felt very energetic, strong, healthy and sometimes even euphoric. Unfortunately things went differently.

What have I eaten?

Mainly fruits, wild game meats and grass fed beef. 100.0% raw. Zero grain fed meat. Zero dairy. Wild fish and seafood 1-2 times per week. Low carb, high animal fat.  Main calories came from grass fed beef fat. Carb intake between 0 and 80 grams per day. Round about 75% of the meats were frozen.

What happened?

- I ended up in hospital for the first time in my life.
- massive inflammations in several parts of my body
- gastritis
- sharp pain in my colon
- diarrhea and bloating
- colonoscopies revealed inflammations of the appendix and the whole colon
- lab tests showed high levels of clostridium perfringens
- a colon tumor was found and removed
- huge inflammatory eczemas
- persistent eye infections
- extreme irritability and nervousness
- sometimes heart problems
- impaired glucose tolerance
- dental calculus

I started my raw food journey 13 years ago. Vegan diets as well as high fruit low fat raw paleo diets never caused such inflammations in my body. I believe that the colon tumor was a result of these inflammations. I felt very frustrated when I got the message. Unfortunately a fruit based raw paleo diet is no solution in the long-run. I have already damaged my skin, joints, teeth etc. too much on such a raw food diet. In my case all the inflammations were clearly caused by raw animal fats, beef fat and wild boar fat.

The interesting thing here is that the same fats do not cause inflammation, diarrhea and pain if I eat them cooked.

The inflammations became so aggressive that I needed cortisone. I'm now very slowly recovering on a cooked paleo low carb diet. Cooked vegetables have been very helpful in reducing inflammation. I can't digest raw broccoli and other hard vegetables. They irritate my gi tract. To be honest, I'm nevertheless still not "healed" from the idea of a raw food diet. Because, as we all know, a raw food diet is the way to eternal youth, immortality and paradise. Unfortunately fruits accelerated the aging process of my body like no other substance. Unfortunately raw grass fed animal fats gave me inflammations (Michael Eades has written about this problem), a tumor, eczemas and irritability. Unfortunately my body can't handle raw vegetables...

Good bye!

Löwenherz

[LePatron7]

It's my duty to share my very disappointing experiences of the last months with you.

I got massive health problems on my raw paleo low carb diet. At the beginning I felt very energetic, strong, healthy and sometimes even euphoric. Unfortunately things went differently.

What have I eaten?

Mainly fruits, wild game meats and grass fed beef. 100.0% raw. Zero grain fed meat. Zero dairy. Wild fish and seafood 1-2 times per week. Low carb, high animal fat.  Main calories came from grass fed beef fat. Carb intake between 0 and 80 grams per day. Round about 75% of the meats were frozen.

What happened?

- I ended up in hospital for the first time in my life.
- massive inflammations in several parts of my body
- gastritis
- sharp pain in my colon
- diarrhea and bloating
- colonoscopies revealed inflammations of the appendix and the whole colon
- lab tests showed high levels of clostridium perfringens
- a colon tumor was found and removed
- huge inflammatory eczemas
- persistent eye infections
- extreme irritability and nervousness
- sometimes heart problems
- impaired glucose tolerance
- dental calculus

I started my raw food journey 13 years ago. Vegan diets as well as high fruit low fat raw paleo diets never caused such inflammations in my body. I believe that the colon tumor was a result of these inflammations. I felt very frustrated when I got the message. Unfortunately a fruit based raw paleo diet is no solution in the long-run. I have already damaged my skin, joints, teeth etc. too much on such a raw food diet. In my case all the inflammations were clearly caused by raw animal fats, beef fat and wild boar fat.

The interesting thing here is that the same fats do not cause inflammation, diarrhea and pain if I eat them cooked.

The inflammations became so aggressive that I needed cortisone. I'm now very slowly recovering on a cooked paleo low carb diet. Cooked vegetables have been very helpful in reducing inflammation. I can't digest raw broccoli and other hard vegetables. They irritate my gi tract. To be honest, I'm nevertheless still not "healed" from the idea of a raw food diet. Because, as we all know, a raw food diet is the way to eternal youth, immortality and paradise. Unfortunately fruits accelerated the aging process of my body like no other substance. Unfortunately raw grass fed animal fats gave me inflammations (Michael Eades has written about this problem), a tumor, eczemas and irritability. Unfortunately my body can't handle raw vegetables...

Good bye!

Löwenherz

Wow what a story! Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Could you be more detailed about what the root cause of your problems were? I think you mentioned "clostridium?" I think it would help out future RPD'ers.

Did you use salt at any point on your RPDiet? What kind of water did you drink? Did you eat magnesium rich foods? Did you get any calcium? How was your potassium intake, etc. Please be as detailed as possible so we can perhaps find a root cause for your troubles (not necessarily to get you to try again, but for information purposes).

[aLptHW4k4y]

Sorry to hear about your difficult situation. Thank you for sharing it with us, it's important for people to understand that a 100% raw diet does not automatically translate to 100% perfect health till the day you die.
All the best, I hope you have a quick recovery!

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Lowenherz. We can learn from failures as well as successes. Sorry to hear about the problems and I hope you're doing well now and have found something that works better for you.

It would indeed be helpful if you shared some more details so we can learn, if you don't mind.

What's your height and weight and how many calories/day were you eating? It's difficult to get a sense of a macronutrient and calorie intake based on grams of carbs alone.   
Has your carb intake or macronutrient intake ratio changed at all on your new diet?
When did you start raw LC Paleo and why did you try it?
What had your diet been at the time you started LC RP?
How was your health before LC RP and when did the problems with LC RP start?
When do you think the clostridium perfringens infection began and when did you get it treated? Do you suspect a particular source that you got it from?
What were your top 10 staple foods on LC raw Paleo and what are they now on LC cooked Paleo?
What % of your foods do you cook, roughly?
How has your health (symptoms, lab markers, etc., such as how did your reduced inflammation specifically manifest itself?) improved since you started eating cooked foods?
Where did you get raw wild boar fat?
Are you really still drawn to the notion that "a raw food diet is the way to eternal youth, immortality and paradise," or is that a joke?
Would you share the link to where Michael Eades wrote about "raw grass fed animal fats" causing "inflammations"? I've seen him talk about raw plant foods being more inflammatory than cooked plant foods, but not raw grass fed animal fats.
Why do you call your former LC RP diet "fruit based" when you were eating only 0 - 80 g carbs per day? Do you mean that the plant portion of your diet was mostly fruit? Which fruits?
How much of the problem for you do you think was caused by raw animal fats vs. fruits vs. clostridium perfringens?
Could you clarify what you mean about fruit accelerating the aging process of your body like no other substance despite high fruit low fat raw paleo never causing "such inflammations"?

If you prefer, you could PM me your answers. Best of luck with your new approach.

[RogueFarmer]

Domestic fruits don't make me feel so good. What kinds of fruit were you eating?

I think perhaps some people are more adapted to fruit eating than others. Could your diet have been composed of too much meat and not enough organs or marrow? Was your meat frozen or fresh?

[PaleoPhil]

Lowenherz said that 75% of his meats were frozen.

[jessica]

Lowen....have you had a mineral/vitamin analysis?

[cherimoya_kid]

I think the frozen meat might be a big part of the problem.

It also sounds like there might be a vitamin D deficiency.  You might want to try supplementing with the Now brand vitamin D for a few days, and see what that does for you.

[aLptHW4k4y]

I think the frozen meat might be a big part of the problem.

Sorry but that's ridiculous. You certainly will not get colon cancer because of frozen meet! Not even 1%
Stuff like cancer simply happen and that's it, just accept it's normal part of life.

[Hanna]

Dear Löwenherz,

Thank you very much for your honesty! Honesty is rare thing with raw food / raw paleo dieters.
I'm sure you will find a way to solve your health problems!

I'm still eating a 100% raw food diet (since 13 years, omnivore, including seafood, meat, but not much meat, nuts, vegetables, non-acidic fruit, ...) and I'm still fine - better than ever, I guess. Never had any problems with frozen foods. Currently, I'm professionally very active, so not much time to write / read about nutrition.

[Hanna]

P. S.: Would you mind to reveal your age?

Since when have you eaten a (strict) RPD?

[goodsamaritan]

I can't digest raw broccoli and other hard vegetables.

Neither do I.  The vegetables I eat rarely are celery, and kamote tops leaves (which I juice), I sometimes drink capsulized raw dried moringa.
How much raw vegetables did you try to pursue?

Carb intake between 0 and 80 grams per day.

I'm not a fan of very low carb myself.
This translates to what amount of fruits? And what fruits?

Lowenherz said that 75% of his meats were frozen.

Aajonus warned about pre-frozen meats.

Mainly fruits, wild game meats and grass fed beef.

What fruits were you on most of the time?
Where did you buy your game meats and grass fed beef? What brand?
Did you eat offal?

clostridium perfringens

I am theorizing you kept your frozen meats in their respective plastic bags.
And those meats in plastic bags you defrosted in their plastic bags.
And kept these meats in plastic in the refrigerator.
And covered them while in the refrigerator?
Eventually maybe the refrigerator is clostridium infested?
How often do you clean out your refrigerator?
This sounds like food poisoning to me.

http://www.foodsafety.gov/poisoning/causes/bacteriaviruses/cperfringens/
Would have been avoided if you expose your raw meats to the air in the refrigerator.
We have here pictures where the raw meat is exposed or hung exposed to the refrigerator air.
Enclosed raw meat builds bad bacteria... exposed raw meats gain good bacteria.

I would have taken tons of probiotics with the diarrhea.
Where do you get your probiotics? Your own high meat? Store bought probiotics? Your own fermentations?

Dental Calculus?
Not enough vitamin K2. 

I'm asking these questions so we can learn from your experience.

[Hanna]

This sounds like food poisoning to me.
http://www.foodsafety.gov/poisoning/causes/bacteriaviruses/cperfringens/

To me some of the symptoms sound like food poisoning too.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes it is:

C. perfringens is the third most common cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom and the United States[2] though it can sometimes be ingested and cause no harm.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_perfringens

Interestingly, like all food-borne illnesses, it doesn't sicken everyone equally. Thus, as Antoine Béchamp, Hans Selye and others found, the terrain is also important, not just the pathogens.

[Haai]

What about environmental factors? Do you live in a city with terrible air quality? Strong electromagnetic fields? Do you avoid toxic chemicals in cleaning and personal care products? Were you stressed? Do you exercise? Sedentary or active job? Were you using any supplements?

[LePatron7]

Good bye!

Löwenherz

it's likely none of us are going to get a response. I think this guy is long gone and never coming back.

[Dr. D]

it's likely none of us are going to get a response. I think this guy is long gone and never coming back.

and not to be a mindless RPD advocate, but this makes me question his legitimacy towards unbiased dieting. Possible vegan? Idk, I've seen him post in other threads and nothing seemed to be off.

Personally, I wouldn't have waited 3 months to bring up health issues that severe to this forum. That's a long time to be forcing a certain diet that obviously wasn't working for him.

[LePatron7]

Personally, I wouldn't have waited 3 months to bring up health issues that severe to this forum. That's a long time to be forcing a certain diet that obviously wasn't working for him.

That's true. I doubt all of those health problems just crept up out of nowhere and hit him all at once.

[goodsamaritan]

My bet is on the "clostridium perfringens" caused by the packing in plastic and keeping in plastic... not airing out the meat.  And this was probably done every single day... maybe the refrigerator is full of "clostridium perfringens" then.

[bookittyrun]

to blame rpd...  i wonder if, while racked up in the hospital, he asked what diet type other cancer patients were on?  instead of blaming the "diet", maybe blaming "choice of diet" is more appropriate.  if raw veggies were an issue, plenty of forum members still indulge in some cooked, or non-raw foods as a means to get proper / better nutrition.  carcinogens are floating around inside everyone, regardless of diet or environment.  whether those carcinogens take hold, is random.  certainly, factors can improve the chances of cell development.  if the 1% just didn't happen, there would statistically be no 1%.  the poster's change in health is most unfortunate, but i'm sure this all didn't happen overnight.  so what steps were taken during development and deterioration to try and rectify the situation?

this sounds more like an attempt to place blame, not take responsibility for the situation...  like when a loved one passes on unexpectedly, the remark of "well, if only i had..." is inevitable.  i wonder how bad off the poster would have been 10 years earlier if not practicing an rpd...

and yes, i would expect no reply...
best wishes on recovery with modern, western medicine.  i'm sure they have the cure...

[Dr. D]

And that's just it, if no raw paleo, then what? Vegan? Vegetarian with animal products like cheese, Milk and other non lethal foods? Fruitarian?

I've been down those paths (except vegan) and I never got the same health boosts that those guys claim to have. My best diet was the Slow carb diet but it didn't solve health issues.

It seems unusual to me, someone seeking health, being silent, then coming out of nowhere and leaving, blaming raw meat. I think GS has it. Fridges are made of plastic walls, I'm sure if it started, it cultured really strongly in his fridge.

[jessica]

And that's just it, if no raw paleo, then what? Vegan? Vegetarian with animal products like cheese, Milk and other non lethal foods? Fruitarian?

I've been down those paths (except vegan) and I never got the same health boosts that those guys claim to have. My best diet was the Slow carb diet but it didn't solve health issues.

It seems unusual to me, someone seeking health, being silent, then coming out of nowhere and leaving, blaming raw meat. I think GS has it. Fridges are made of plastic walls, I'm sure if it started, it cultured really strongly in his fridge.

the middle way and time is always best, I doubt he will want to swing the pendulum too far as it seems he has already experimented with many diets.  I hope he tries to stick with paleo, even if cooked, and rely and some supplementation(after proper blood tests) to boost the healing and regenerative processes.

[Iguana]

I hadn't seen this thread because I had just moved to Portugal and had no Internet connection at the time.

Löwenherz had the honesty to tell what happened to him. I wonder how many others former regular posters experienced health problem and just suddenly disappeared from this forum without telling goodbye.

A raw diet is no joke: it took several years, a considerable amount of experimentation and observation to develop a way which is sustainable in the long run. Even now, there are still questions which are not totally and satisfactorily answered.

I just followed the path roughly cleared by the pioneers which I know and who are still in a very good health and even ageing slower than most people after several decades of instinctive raw paleo nutrition, some having seen their so called “incurable disease” cured. But it’s clear that in our modern world we are kind of walking on the crest of a mountain range and it suffice to go a bit sideways down to find it very difficult to climb again to the crest.

I can’t tell why raw thawed food can cause troubles, but since some negative effects have been observed, we never eat anything that had been frozen and thawed. Eating too much meat from mammals, especially domesticated ones, also appear to be dangerous.

I hope Löwenherz has well recovered, and yes, I think it’s wise for him to have gone to cooked paleo. Cooked or mostly cooked paleo may well be safer than a rough individual experiment of a 100% raw paleo diet on an uncleared path in the jungle. 

[Barefoot Instincto]

I'd imagine whats likely is his gut bacterias messed up. Sometimes the only way it can be corrected is fecal transplant.

Humans are really hardy. As long as we have really good gut bacteria, and breathe to the best of our ability, problems are kept at bay even with a very limited range of food. Also what I think is critical is to have a very high nutrient to calorie ratio. Gotta reaaaaally make them count. Some days that ratio needs to be very highly swayed in the nutrients direction (i.e. restricted eating fasting).

Also is mentioned the fact that he doesn't eat vegetables, and only fruits. This seems really wrong to me. This comes back to the "high nutrient versus calories" point once again. Tolerance likely just needed to be built up slowly, and with only certain kinds of vegetables.

[Dr. D]

I also see no mention of organs or high meat, which personally have been some of the greatest healing tools for me. Not sure if it would've fixed him, but still helpful. Also, he says raw fat gave inflammation, which is still confusing. I agree with you barefoot, it sounds like a bacteria issue. I know it takes time to build the correct mitochondria for digesting fat.


There are many issues at play I'm sure and looking over his past posts he mentions a lot in passing how cooked meats are better for him than raw. Nobody ever addressed it. I sadly still can't help but question; troll?