Let's discuss magnesium deficiency...

[Dr. D]

So we could be blind eye and say the frequently occurring Mg deficiency among RPD is due to modern issues concerning lack of knowledge of paleo times, or that paleo man would've lived closer to the water therefore always catching seafood (which is probably fairly true) but we still run into Mg deficiency frequently. In my thirst for knowledge, I've made a recent consideration I haven't seen as an explanation yet and I'd like it to be tested.

Magnesium deficiency is caused by shoes.

Rather, by a lack of touching the soil. We wear shoes and don't touch dirt. Magnesium is absorbed best through the skin. Why could we not at very least make an assumption that our ancestors had little to no issue re Mg deficiency because of living on the dirt always? It's tough to find decent numbers on the subject, especially because soil nutrient content is very localized. Magnesium rich clay holds 50% more water http://www.agtest.com/articles/highmg_soils.pdf I have often dug my feet into the clay pockets by the river. It's quite enjoyable, I don't see why another human wouldn't want to do the same. At least there is a slight indication of its possibility, leaning towards probable.

The only thing I'd see as an issue for this idea is if someone could point out that soil during paleo times was in fact poor in Mg, but that is near impossible, because Mg is water soluble, so if there was a super heavy downpour, even that would affect how deep Mg is moved throughout the soil. Tough to prove, tough to disprove.

This may also lend to the idea for us that a supplemental Mg may not be that bad, for those of us that can't access great seafood frequently. 

Please discuss and let's solve.

[cherimoya_kid]

I love going barefoot, but I doubt that much magnesium can be absorbed through the soles of the feet.  The soles are very thick, especially on people who go barefoot a lot.

[Dr. D]

Even calloused hands and feet sweat, wouldn't that mean they uptake nutrients as well? And not just walking around. Gotta go into the water daily. The water soil may have a ton of magnesium, seeing as seafood is fairly big on it. I'm just throwing things out. It's tough to find info but I'll keep looking.

[cherimoya_kid]

Even calloused hands and feet sweat, wouldn't that mean they uptake nutrients as well? And not just walking around. Gotta go into the water daily. The water soil may have a ton of magnesium, seeing as seafood is fairly big on it. I'm just throwing things out. It's tough to find info but I'll keep looking.

Yes, they sweat, but the skin is MUCH thicker there. It's much easier to absorb things through literally any other area of skin on the body.

[Dr. D]

Ah quite true, thin skin will absorb much more easily. Still, the amount of minerals necessary decreases greatly with fewer carbs, so even if some magnesium got through, it could contribute a reasonable percentage.

I wonder as well how much is in water and how much time paleo man spent fishing in water.

maybe I'm just trying to make living away from the ocean work. It does seem the largest civilizations were based on the shore of an ocean.

[cherimoya_kid]

maybe I'm just trying to make living away from the ocean work. It does seem the largest civilizations were based on the shore of an ocean.

All the minerals run downhill into the oceans. That's why seafoods are more nutritious than land foods.

[Dr. D]

Definitely. I'm just guessing at others ways than diet to retrieve our nutrition. Ways that I think paleo man may have got it aside from food.

Raw almost demands a new lifestyle and I just think a lot.

[cherimoya_kid]

Definitely. I'm just guessing at others ways than diet to retrieve our nutrition. Ways that I think paleo man may have got it aside from food.

Raw almost demands a new lifestyle and I just think a lot.

Some places have hot mineral springs (that people even today bathe in for health reasons), natural salt licks, mineral-rich edible clays, etc..

[Haai]

By Mg deficiency do you mean lower than the official recommended daily intake (RDI)? If so, don't you think that the RDI for Mg could be too high and that what is found in a typical raw paleo diet is the right amount?

Furthermore, isn't the Mg:Ca ratio more important than actual quantities. In lean meat the Mg:Ca ratio is 3:1 (according to page 112 of 'The Paleo Answer' by Cordain) The lean meats he tested for this were beef, chicken, pork and turkey.

[cherimoya_kid]

By Mg deficiency do you mean lower than the official recommended daily intake (RDI)? If so, don't you think that the RDI for Mg could be too high and that what is found in a typical raw paleo diet is the right amount?

Furthermore, isn't the Mg:Ca ratio more important than actual quantities. In lean meat the Mg:Ca ratio is 3:1 (according to page 112 of 'The Paleo Answer' by Cordain) The lean meats he tested for this were beef, chicken, pork and turkey.

According to Dr. Weston Price, traditional tribes consume anywhere from 7-29 times the amount of magnesium that Americans did.  We need a lot more magnesium than we get, except on a high-quality diet. 

Also, BOTH the ratio AND the amount of magnesium are important.  You have to have both working right.

[goodsamaritan]

>> Magnesium deficiency is caused by shoes.

I would have to agree with your lead there and investigate further.

I will add my experience with MAGNESIUM OIL

Where of course it is placed on the skin.

I had a bad experience with magnesium oil.  Made me too sleepy every single day.  And caused me some muscle weakness on my upper thighs.

Maybe I was not magnesium deficient and suffered an overdose?

I stopped that magnesium oil experiment and was back to normal after a few days.

This happened some 3 months ago.

[Haai]

According to Dr. Weston Price, traditional tribes consume anywhere from 7-29 times the amount of magnesium that Americans did.  We need a lot more magnesium than we get, except on a high-quality diet. 

Also, BOTH the ratio AND the amount of magnesium are important.  You have to have both working right.

Did Price say where these traditional tribes were getting their Mg from?

By the way, is the following a correct interpretation of the second sentence you wrote? " We [typical Americans/Europeans/westerners/anyone on a standard western diet] need a lot more magnesium than we get, except on a high quality diet [like the Raw Paleo Diet]".

[bookittyrun]

should i assume that if i wash my feet less often, i stand a better chance of absorbing mg through the dirty crust that will inevitably build up?  is frequent bathing something to consider?  mud / clay and dirt were often spread on the body as a means of sunblock, and treatment for skin ailments / conditions...  no?  what if that crust was left there?
 
was my weekly saturday night (pre-sunday morning church) bath as a young child, forcefully administered by my mother, really the more healthy course of action?  no kid wants to bathe, or brush teeth...  is this intuitive ancestral behavior, relating to your post? 

[cherimoya_kid]

Did Price say where these traditional tribes were getting their Mg from?

By the way, is the following a correct interpretation of the second sentence you wrote? " We [typical Americans/Europeans/westerners/anyone on a standard western diet] need a lot more magnesium than we get, except on a high quality diet [like the Raw Paleo Diet]".

Price just did analyses of food samples that he took from each tribe. Most of the magnesium was from animal foods, I think...and certainly the most ABSORBABLE was.

And yes, you did understand me correctly. Sorry, I don't always take the time to write as clearly as I could. I try.

[van]

I one time tried to find animal foods, not counting from the ocean, high in mg.  Couldn't.   Although I think it might be found in the blood in good quantities, since mg. stores in animals bodies come from blood.   I suspect blood was helpful in balancing the acid effects of nitrogen as a resultant by- product of large protein meals.  Or, that blood in good amounts could be less acidic than flesh due to balanced mineral content.

[Dr. D]

Boo; it is quite possible that the more frequent the bathing the less we may absorb through the skin. The principal of my high school took a 4 month trip down the Columbia river. We asked how he bathed. I quote verbatim "funny thing, when you don't wash for a week you stink. If you don't wash for another week, you no longer stink. The body has a natural way of cleansing itself." Those clay packs (seeing as clay has more mg) may be beneficial for more than your skin.

ck; just more info as to why animal foods work so well. Thanks.

van; that's why I bring it up. I'm curious what ways one can get mg from other than seafood while STILL being within paleo lifestyle. That may be an oxymoron because it seems paleo man would've lived close enough to the ocean to fish frequently? Or at least a river I assume. I think there's more in our society that we've changed than processing foods and electronics and toxins that contribute to poor health. I think we've taken many lifestyle aspects away, as shown through fermented foods being a delicacy.

[Haai]

Remember we evolved on the African Savannah (inland), not on the coast. I don't think we necessarily require seafood and it's high mineral content to be healthy. Chances are, the amount of Mg found in the diet of our ancestral inland hunter-gatherers, before there even were any coastal hunter-gatherers, is a sufficient amount for good if not optimal health.

Of course as HG (can't be arsed to keep writing hunter-gatherers) populations grew they would have dispersed and reached the coastline eventually and those populations likely supplemented their diet with seafood and coincidentally increased their Mg and other mineral eg. Ca intake. But in my opinion it was by no means a necessity for good health or for further success of the human species. These coastal HGs likely still hunted large game, because seafood alone would not provide enough calories.

I find it interesting that many people today have seafood allergies, myself included, although mainly to shellfish, but also some sea fish (although I do not get life-threatening anaphylaxis). I avoid all seafood now except for salmon. This leads me to think that perhaps all HGs had allergies to seafood at one time and it took time before SOME (which later became 'most', but not 'all') coastal HGs adapted to it to be able to eat it without negative symptoms.

These are just thoughts of mine, which may or may not change.

[goodsamaritan]

Van, yes, we may need to drink blood more often.  Muscle plasma in beef was the recommended daily food for TB cures. Worked for my boy.

Haai, my observation with my kids is that sea food allergy has more to do with polluted waters.  No allergies when the aquatic creature comes from pristine sources.

[LePatron7]

I've started eating pumpkin seeds.

[bookittyrun]

I've started eating pumpkin seeds.

this is a good source.  raw almonds and cashews have some decent doses of mg, as does a crazy amount of raw spinach.

let's make a few assumptions...  if "paleo lifestyle" is defined in part by primal type diet, and since some of the veggie, seed, and nut sources we currently consume for supplementation were not food items immediately available to certain ancestral groups, than to pursue "paleo" diet means your primary source for mg would either need to come from animal sources (blood or organs), or enviroment.  mg does seem to be readily absorbed through the skin.  some sources say animal product would have been more limited in early times (due to limited hunting resources), while foraging / gathering for items would have made up the majority of primitive diet...

your original question regarding absorption through enviroment is indeed intriguing...  if vit d can be supplemented through sun exposure (instead of dairy items), then it only makes sense that other vitamins and minerals could be derived from simply the act of more "natural" living...

how to pursue validation?

[Dr. D]

Local soil samples provide an analysis of Nutritional content. Though that is quite localized. Trying to find info on soil samples leads to a lot of agriculture info. Looking for mg specifically leads to even less.

I've been thinking about vans blood thing. How much mg can be found in beef or lamb blood, my two staple land animals? Info is tough to find. Granted even that would be weak because HG probably ate bison or goats more, something other than farm style animals. So much has changed and I agree with the basic premise that our bodies haven't quite adapted. Hell, in my family, not even 60 years ago they were still in Sweden eating surstromming and leutifisk. My generational line MAY be more adapted to seafood than any other food, which may explain the STRONG desire I've had since early childhood to eat seafood. Downing raw oysters at 4 years old.

[van]

If you do go for pumpkin seeds,  ditch all  the ones found in stores and on line, and search out the hungarian types that are the only ones that will sprout.  They are dark green and I think I got my last batch from Sunfood..   I soak them for one day, changing the water a couple of times,,,  then put in colander and let sit on counter for a day, and then if it's sunny in my kitchen I leave them there to dry, otherwise I put the colander in the fridge to let them dry there.  They are the only ones worth eating.  All other varieties in stores mostly come from China, are light green, and are dead and mostly rancid.     Most almonds are pasturized as mentioned here too.  But you can search for ones that aren't.  They are much better soaked, imo. 

[bookittyrun]

i've read that in animal product, blood, and (especially) brain, have higher amounts of mg within.  which begs the question:  in what concentration is mg found in each?  if we perceive the hunter / gatherer groups to be just that, then animal product from the "hunt" would need to be shared amongst the group...  how far could an animal brain (or two, or three) go between multiple humans in a clan?  in the event of a kill, some blood would most likely be lost to the soil...  point being, if hunting groups were to dispatch of an animal, the bulk of what would need to be transported back to the clan, is muscle meat... it seems inconceivable that enough animal product could be gathered on a mission, to support a group's needs for mg soley on remaining blood, and small portions of brains...  also consider hunting trips were surely not always successful, as evidenced by the animal kingdom, where even top predators go for periods of time without a kill for nourishment.

something else to consider:  where does the mg supply in animal product come from?  to assume carnivores would only get mg from other animal product, they would require an amount of prey to satisfy a mg requirement large enough for humans to then benefit with occasional kills.  foraging prey would also need to consume large amounts of plant matter, for similar reasons.

reliable, year round mg sources with plants seems unlikely...  to some extent, the best scenario for adequate mg consumption would be, to be, omnivorous... at least then chances would be better for adequate mg ingestion.

absorption seems very logical.  maybe there is a flip side to this equation...  instead of wondering how we, as a species, can get mg...  what are ways humans can better retain mg?  would this lessen the need for constant replenishment?  would this also account for areas where ocean foods (plant or animal) are not part of the dietary equation, or where mineral content in soil is low?  as we developed, did we lose the knowledge of how, or the ability to, keep minerals and vitamins within ourselves?

am i overthinking this?

[van]

not overthinking,,  that's just what the people in ZIOH suggest, that carbs upset the balance of minerals, etc...  especially how they are always citing the need for extra vit c when eating carbs.  Who knows.  As far as blood is concerned,  HG could easily have collected the gallon or so in stomach like bags to take back.  The brains and bones were taken back and cracked for eating later,, evidence of this is found often in caves. 

[Projectile Vomit]

I wonder if taking a hot bath with epsom salts (MgSO4) can provide a nutritional source of Mg?