I see your point and I think I'm settling into an idea of it. I see what Lex was after and that his downfall may have been too much protein, which got converted to glycogen via GNG, keeping him in limbo.
Well that and not enough fat. Since he probably wasn't eating enough fat, he was most likely breaking down muscle for fuel as well - which I'm pretty sure is even more taxing on the body than gluconeogenesis.
Does that mean you believe GNG happens only after your body's basic protein need is filled, rather than Lex's idea of up to 58% of ALL consumed protein can be turned into glycogen?
From what I've read and my experience, yes. When you read about the process of gluconeogenesis kicking in - it is always mentioned as the body's last resort preference to obtain fuel. So, why would the body convert around half of ALL protein consumed into glucose if it is taxing on the body? Most likely it wouldn't if there is enough fuel coming in elsewhere.
Also, a point to mention - how can the body be using ketones as fuel while there is glucose floating around the bloodstream from protein? Keep in mind the body can also make glucose from ketones. (acetone). I mention this just because some people say the body can't run without glucose. Anyway, you can read about that here if you'd like:
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http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2012/01/we-really-can-make-glucose-from-fatty.html)
Now, I'm still unsure if during keto-adaptation, if one plans on remaining omnivorous with 1-2 pieces of fruit daily (10-20g of carbs) one should continue to consume that many carbs, in hopes the body will adapt to ketones, or will the body just continue to try and run on few carbs until they are depleted for a time? Then, after a time in ketosis (ketonuria) one could add back in a low amount of carbs, infrequently, without any side effects of re-adapting?
I'm not sure about this as I've never experimented with adding in low amounts of carbs to my ZC diet but here is something interesting:
Dr. Phinney (author of 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living') claims he stays in ketosis and his diet consists of the following:
"I stay between 25 and 50 grams of carbohydrate a day. I eat a moderate amount of protein. It’s not a high-protein diet. I eat 2800 calories a day, and so if moderate protein is 500 to 600 calories a day and carbohydrate is around 100 calories a day, I’m eating over 2,000 calories of fat to maintain my body weight. I run in the 70 – 80% of energy intake as fat."
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So, this would mean he eats around 125-150 grams of protein but you have to keep in mind cooking protein denatures it; 50% of it I've read is unable to be utilised, which would obviously make less protein available (62-75g) for conversion to glucose. This would put him in the maintenance zone for protein; meaning just enough to maintain lean mass and not be converted to glucose. This makes sense because I've noticed I can eat a lot more cooked protein (around double) without getting sick from excess protein. If I eat around 90g+ of raw beef, the protein makes me sick.
This is where it gets tough. It seems to me that its best to either do well on carbs and do a CKD to remain low-carb most of the time with a loading time (which I don't find loading on carbs to be that "energizing" so I question this process anyways) or just go full carnivorous. The tricky thing is, a keto-adapted person can consume 10g of carbs with no issue, and someone can stay glycogen adapted living on a low-carb diet in the 30g/day area? So does it just come down to consistency? Is low carb limbo when the keto-adapted person consumed x amount of carbs (x is low-carb limbo inducing) daily and then his body decides that glycogen is preferred over ketones, regardless of the amount of fat? Can this change if someone is keto-adapted for 4 months vs. a year? Lex didn't seem to be in ketonuria when he upped his fat, since he became really fatigued and was overdoing his protein amount, according to many who are fully in ketosis. So was his body hanging onto the glycogen from excess protein?
Technically a CKD wouldn't really be ketogenic diet. You are loading up on carbs to use glycogen to fuel your workouts. Once that glycogen runs out you have to reload up on carbs to avoid limbo.
Take a look at this:
"Say, you are fully ketoadapted - i.e have been eating a very low carb (some days zero carb) diet for months and feel great on it.
What happens if one day you eat a bunch of carbs (eg 100g in one go). How does your body react? Is it the same as someone who eats carbs every day (over 200g) and if not how does the body response differ? Will you continue to be keto adapted the next day, when you go back to ultra low carb?
And what if you don't just have one load of carbs, but raise your carbs for a couple of days, eating them throughout the day. Will you become glucose adapted, and then have to go through the couple of weeks it takes to be keto adapted all over again?
I've been dying to understand all this, and would appreciate any help!!"
Here is the answer:
"It's a matter of enzymes. When you're keto-adapted, you have induced the proper enzymes to utilize fats for energy and you are able to obtain required glucose by gluconeogenesis from glucogenic amino acids and glycerol. If you are doing zero-carb or something close to it, you will have down-regulated the enzymes required to process carbohydrate.
For that reason, if a very-low-carber has a glucose tolerance test, the results will be skewed. He/she simply will not have the enzymes available to process the glucose properly. That's why the doctor will recommend eating 100 carbs per day for about three days prior to a glucose tolerance test. It takes about that long to get the carb-processing enzymes back and functioning efficiently in the gut.
Just one day of eating 100 grams of carbs shouldn't have much effect. Because of the extra insulin requirement and a carb-induced boost in your glycogen stores, you can expect a temporary gain in water weight. Eating extra carbs long-term will switch you back to the extra insulin release leads to insulin resistance leads to fat storage mode. Which is why you can't lose weight on low-carb and maintain the weight loss on low-fat/low-calorie.
If you then go back to low-carbing, the transition to keto-adaptation should be much quicker. The body has a memory for things it has experienced before. However, because of that, you will not experience the high degree of metabolic advantage that newbie low-carbers enjoy. That may be why people say that with low-carbing you get "One Golden Shot." Low-carb still works, but after the first time it works more slowly and it's much less common to see rapid, huge weight losses."
Considering excess protein forming glycogen, and not having the experience to do well, would I lose too much muscle mass if I went to 100% fat for 2 days, then added 10g of protein extra each subsequent day (3rd-10g, 4th-20g, 5th-30g, etc) trying to demand of my body to use those ketones more quickly instead of sacrificing the protein into glycogen?
I'd recommend eating a low amount of protein (for maintenance), say 50 grams to start with enough fat to make you feel well. From there you can slowly experiment by adding in more protein.
