3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues

[mommyrunmommy]

I have been eating raw chicken livers for the past three days along with a paleo mostly meat cooked diet. Last night and this morning Ive had terrible diahrea and stomach cramps and a headaches. Could it be from livers? I realized that they weren't 100% pasture - could that be the reason? Is it normal to have diarrhea in the beginning? Also I've been paleo 100% for 4 weeks now. Thanks.

[van]

Chickens are hardly ever healthy enough to eat, let alone their livers (raw).  Raw liver can give many loose stools.  Try to ease into eating liver and find your threshold, and always respect your taste for them, and when it stops tasting good.

[jessica]

hey tyler,

this is why a chapter about food quality and sources and what to avoid would be really helpful in a raw paleo book........

[24isours]

It could be that your body is reacting to such high amounts of retinol (vitamin a). Do you balance your Vitamin A intake with Vitamin D?

[Projectile Vomit]

Sounds to me like the onset of Salmonella poisoning, which is easy to get from conventional chicken more generally, and internal organs in particular. It usually takes a few days to develop after initial exposure. It can take weeks to clear this from your system, and Salmonella can be fatal to those who are weakened by other ailments, so I hope you're in good health.

[paper_clips43]

I have had similar issues when I wad adjusting to raw meat.

First I would only eat 1-3 oz of liver every couple days to avoid high amounts of Vitamin A. The most beneficial supplement I have found to assist with adjusting to a mostly raw meat diet is Gelatin. Great Lakes has a grass fed gelatin that you can order and mix with water to drink. Also drink it with your meat meals to balance the amino acid content. Gelatin, IMHO, has been the best healer to any gut issues I have had. Also making homemade bone broths from grass fed bones, especially knuckle, is going to aid tremendously in digestion. I only wish I had known this sooner. I could have saved myself a lot of unneeded suffering. I also hope more people are aware of the amino acid requirements form Gelatin. It is absolutely necessary.

Here is a link explaining why....

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

[cherimoya_kid]

Don't ever eat chicken raw, unless you can personally vouch for its diet and environment.

[LePatron7]

Chicken is one of those foods that no beginner should start with. I personally have never eaten raw chicken. However I have had uncleaned chicken eggs from chickens that ate an incredible diet (Miller's Organic Farm) and I had food poisoning until I started ordering them cleaned.

[PaleoPhil]

FWIW, I've never noticed any problems from the raw chicken livers I've eaten. The first time I ate raw beef liver (and it was my first raw liver), I did have some diarrhea and malaise overnight, but I didn't assume that liver was bad for me and haven't had any problems with any liver since.

[mango]

after about 2 weeks of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.

[PaleoPhil]

It's surprising to me that I haven't noticed more problems from liver intake, given my own zinc-deficiency and copper-overload symptoms. I can't currently explain it.

I can't recommend a muscle-meat-only diet, in part because over the past 4 years or so, most of the people I've seen adopt a ZC-type diet have eventually reported problems and added other foods back into their diets, with subsequent improvements.

[24isours]

after about a week of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.

I would have to agree with PaleoPhil from my experience with my ZC diet. Organ meat is a very important part of the diet. What has worked for me is finding the sweet spot for organ meat intake. I get about 3500 IU of Vitamin A per day from 20g of Liver and 20g of Heart. You may feel better now as you clear out high amounts of Retinol/Copper but you will more than likely need a good source of Retinol as your stores become used up. Balancing Vitamin A intake with Vitamin D is very important as well. I recommend getting Vitamin D from sunlight as dietary sources of Vitamin D compete with Vitamin A. Vitamin D will also help balance out the effects of over-consumption of Retinol (Vitamin A).

[24isours]

It's surprising to me that I haven't noticed more problems from liver intake, given my own zinc-deficiency and copper-overload symptoms. I can't currently explain it.

I can't recommend a muscle-meat-only diet, in part because over the past 4 years or so, most of the people I've seen adopt a ZC-type diet have eventually reported problems and added other foods back into their diets, with subsequent improvements.

With proper dietary and lifestyle adjustments ZC shouldn't be a problem.

[cherimoya_kid]

With proper dietary and lifestyle adjustments ZC shouldn't be a problem.

Except that it often is a problem, for many people. You can't just give blanket recommendations and expect them to work for everyone.  Humans are way more complex than that.

[jessica]

after about a week of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.

interesting mango.....I wonder if my consumption of so much liver caused any of this in the past.  I always felt so much better with eating large amounts of liver when I first started eating it, I would eat 1 pound a day for weeks

but now I don't really crave it as often, I don't think I ever vitamin a overdosed

i honestly have eaten store bought but organic chicken livers and i think they are pretty gross tasting.  i know there have been times when i havecraved chicken livers but i wouldn't eat those raw.  they just taste rancid and definitely like they have been grain fed

the fresh pastured ones i have had were delicious, so much sweeter.  same goes with fresh, no frozen liver.  i have had it warm from a fresh killed deer and it was waaay to intense, but aged a few days and its deliciously sweet.  i have also had fresh, never frozen grass fed lamb and beef liver that was as delicious, and some that had been in the wrong packaging too long and was foul.  so i think it depends on how the food is handled.

ii would suggest raw yogurt or cheese, salt or seaweed and clay or charcoal to help your stomach and diarrhea, also taking a lot of "primal defense " probiotic worked well for me with giardia or whatever i had....

[24isours]

Except that it often is a problem, for many people. You can't just give blanket recommendations and expect them to work for everyone.  Humans are way more complex than that.

And the goal is to figure out why it is a problem for that person, no? All I am recommending is possibly trying out something that has worked for me.

[mango]

i understand that most on this forum don't think that a ZC diet is healthy, and that organ meats are essential. but in 7 months of ZC i've almost completely eliminated all signs of a lifelong candida infection, not to mention carpal tunnel/arthritis and a whole host of other undiagnosed mental/physical issues. no signs of any vitamin a deficiency here. the only setback i experienced was when I started eating organ meats, so based on my experiences it is not essential in a ZC diet.

[24isours]

i understand that most on this forum don't think that a ZC diet is healthy, and that organ meats are essential. but in 7 months of ZC i've almost completely eliminated all signs of a lifelong candida infection, not to mention carpal tunnel/arthritis and a whole host of other undiagnosed mental/physical issues. no signs of any vitamin a deficiency here. the only setback i experienced was when I started eating organ meats, so based on my experiences it is not essential in a ZC diet.

That is wonderful, glad to hear it! So, how long were you without a source of Vitamin A?

[mango]

thanks
for most of my life i hadn't consumed any food which was a major source of vitamin a.
the only food was the liver i experimented with for 1-2 weeks back in may of this year.

[van]

I don't know if ZC is for everyone, or anyone... but I do know there's a bunch of ways to mess it up so that it doesn't work.   A couple of examples; eating two much protein, not finding suitable fat, not giving the keto adaption enough time, and giving up, not finding enough variety and finding it boring, or not waiting to eat when actually hungry,  unable to give up fruit or sugar addiction, not exercising appropriately ( in the beginning one needs to start slow with any exercise and allow the body to find it's energy source, rather than expect to flat out tear into exercise as when fueled by sugar), for some-not including organs, and for some finding a balanced mineral source especially mg., which will help keep the bowels moving on a low fibre diet.  And,  letting the body go through a healing that a low sugar diet will initiate, such as the elimination of candida etc. 

[mango]

those are all valid concerns you've mentioned for someone starting out on ZC.  some of those issues i've come across as well. most especially learning not to exceed the amount of protein i need each day, and initially learning to eat the right balance of fat:protein. 
about 99% of the meat i've consumed in these 7 months has been the US Wellness 75/25 grassfed ground beef. i've found that it is the perfect ratio of fat/protein for my body and highly recommend it.
i can see how some/most could easily get bored with eating the same meat of the same texture each day, but personally i love the simplicity of it and completely enjoy both of my daily meals.

[ys]

I agree this is some kind of bacterial infections.  Your symptoms are classic examples of salmonella-like infection. I had exactly the same symptoms long time ago when I consumed packaged meat and did not rinse it with water.

[PaleoPhil]

Many people in this forum also eat fruits, veggies and fat, not just meat and organs. I hope no one's getting the notion that most or all here only eat animal foods. I think Iguana was puzzled in the past by comments that seemed along those lines and wondered where some people were getting this notion (and I hope he will correct me if I remember wrongly).

I vaguely recall that the problems with ZC and near-ZC tend to become more apparent after a year or two, but don't quote me on that.  It seems like most don't last more than 2 years, but some do. For example, Lex Rooker is near-ZC (he eats some carb-containing organs and occasionally other carb-containing foods) and he seems to have done fairly well (though he did develop kidney stones which he attributed to insufficient water intake).

I hope this will be understood as sharing what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere, rather than as criticism or instructions. I don't claim to know what will work best for you and I'm not even certain what would work best for me.

[mango]

no offense taken. i've seen mention of the "problems" with ZC 1-2 years down the line several times on this forum, and it scared me when starting off on my journey, but honestly i don't buy. in 7 months i'm not showing any deficiencies, and this is while my body is going through a major healing process and fighting this candida infection which i still have to a minor degree.
 
keep in mind during these 7 months the candida has been still present in my system, although much less than ever before, and has been robbing my body of nutrients from the meat/fat that i'm eating.  yet i still haven't shown any deficiencies.   so once i'm completely healed in another few months or a year, and my body is getting 100% of the nutrients, i can't imagine things would get worse. if anything they would only be similar or much better than they are now (and i currently feel pretty awesome on a usual day)

it's true that most on here do not eat a diet of only meat/fat, but for those with severe candida infections they usually cannot eat any fruits, veggies, yogurts, dairy, etc.. i wasted somewhere between 1-2 years coming to that realization.   so i'm posting this to encourage those who may be in a similar situation. i fully intend to stick around this forum for the next few years and provide updates on how its going happy to answer any questions/PM's

[cherimoya_kid]

Many people in this forum also eat fruits, veggies and fat, not just meat and organs. I hope no one's getting the notion that most or all here only eat animal foods. I think Iguana was puzzled in the past by comments that seemed along those lines and wondered where some people were getting this notion (and I hope he will correct me if I remember wrongly).

I think me, and people like me, are part of that misconception. I'm so rabidly against lowfat raw veganism (along with a few other people here, who also got burned by lowfat raw veganism) that it's possible that people are getting the idea that I  (or the membership in general) don't actually eat fruits or veggies. Actually I just ate 3 large mangoes and 3 or 4 bananas, plus a couple of avocados. That's fairly typical for my evening meal.  I probably eat about 10 medium-sized pieces of fruit a day, plus about 1 pound of meat and fat.