Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster

[PaleoPhil]

Chronic Zero Carb, Very Low Carb and Ketogenic diets are even worse than I realized. They are only useful in the short term, and no one knows how long is too long. Some people are developing serious, life-threatening autoimmune diseases while staying on them. Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods. Don't let it progress into autoimmunity.

If you are following a zero carb or very-low-carb (also called "ketogenic) raw or cooked Paleo diet (I'll define VLC as roughly below 20% of calories), including a thing called the "Autoimmune Protocol", or an elimination diet recommended by a Naturopath that unfortunately turned out to be ketogenic and low in resistant starch, then you, like me, have been misled (probably in part by ignorant Paleo and LC "experts" who don't know what they're talking about). It's not safe, much less ideal. I don't have time to answer a lot of questions right now, unfortunately, so for now I ask folks to learn all you can about resistant starch and the Old Friends Hypothesis.

Apparently, two of the important things that humans should do are:

- stay out of ketosis most of the time (it's a stressful process designed to kick in during starvation, not every day)
- consume sufficient resistant starch (something like around 20 - 30 grams per day, but start out with smaller amounts to avoid flatulence or detox) and other prebiotics

Starchy foods have unfortunately been wrongly demonized. Many of them contain resistant starch that feeds our gut bacteria, especially raw starchy foods, so it's actually a good argument for eating plenty of raw foods, as long as a big portion of them are starchy, which are unfortunately rare in supermarkets these days.

I apologize for in the past recommending that people read Lex Rooker's journal. I didn't understand how dangerous his experiment is. Not many people on the planet did. Please forgive me.

Pay attention to what the critics of VLC/ketogenic say, like Iguana, not the proponents.

See the comments of Spanish Caravan, such as at this thread, for more information:

http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/carbing-this-beast.html

Spanish Caravan is a brilliant physician who was unfortunately sucked in by the thinking behind this dangerous diet and is now spilling the beans about this anonymously to avoid the risk of litigation. Other physicians know that VLC is a disaster but are afraid to publicly admit the error. Some other people online who have figured this out are Richard Nikoley, Tatertot Tim, Dr. BG, Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser.

It's possible that he or I may have some details wrong, because this is so new. No one has tried a chronic ketogenic diet before in all of human history. It's a dangerous novel experiment, with humans as guinea pigs.

I figured out too late that VLC makes no sense and is dangerous and didn't realize that I was missing this important thing called resistant starch.  I now think that one reason I've been finding it so hard to reincorporate carby foods into my diet is that my gut microbiome was damaged. It had already been damaged by years of antibiotics, so I was especially susceptible to this additional damage. I actually think that even the regular early cooked Paleo diet along the lines of what Loren Cordain recommended that included a reasonable amount of carbs from fruits and nuts started the damage for me, because it was low in resistant starch. It was a misleading diet because it made me feel so good at first.

I'm currently trying to aim for a diet that's more like what Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser recommend, though it's difficult due to my carb intolerance. I make sure to consume plenty of resistant starch most days (with intermittent days where I don't). Paul says to avoid legumes, but some of them are good sources of resistant starch, so I don't recommend doing that unnecessarily. Like starch, legumes also got more demonized than they should have been. If you're gut microbiome got screwed up, you may have to avoid them at first.

I know some people aren't going to believe me, but I don't want to get drawn into time-sucking debates. This thread is for the people who are having problems on VLC.

[TylerDurden]

A couple of things:- First,  an attack like this should have gone into the hot topics forum. I have done so now. Secondly, the above text seems to be rather "science-poor" and designed to frighten rather than inform,  hardly  PP´s usual stance.  Thirdly, I like many before me did RVLC for many years before going back to eating more carbs, and I never suffered from cold hands and feet or any serious problem. All I found was that anaerobic exercise like lifting weights required a bit more carbs in the diet to do well. I did do very badly on RZC after just a few weeks, but that involved cutting out all plant foods altogether.
Then there is the awkward point that babies who are being naturally breastfed are in ketosis the whole time, which rather indicates that ketosis can be healthy!
 
Then there is all this talk about starch. I seem to recall a previous chat I had with you where I cited a source showing that a tribe, famous for eating lots of starchy tubers,  actually loathed eating the tubers and only viewed them as being "starvation-food" at best that they had no choice to eat during  frequent periods of scarcity.  Recommending starvation-food to us rawpalaeodieters when we have all this lovely raw animal fat etc. on offer to feast on instead really is a non-starter.

I see in that comments section a recommendation of 30-40% carbs which is described as being "low!"  Absolute rubbish. And the legumes, full of  antinutrients, what a piss-poor food-type to recommend!
 
 

[van]

I have to say Phil that this is unlike you to cherry pick for information supporting your viewpoints.  I thought you to be more 'scientific' in your approach.   
   Might I suggest you investigate and discover of 'those' that you quote to have done poorly with the low carb approach as to why you say they have done poorly.  For example, should you mention those in Charles's camp,  one could very well speculate several reasons should they actually have done poorly;  primarily eating meat from Costco, eating one large protein meal a day, and obviously cooking the heck out of their food. 
   Over the years you made 'discoveries' of all sorts that appear to you to be the next best thing, and now RS.   And of course it very well may be.    Let's see.

[Hanna]

Very interesting link. Thank you, PaleoPhil, for keeping us informed . I would very much appreciate if you could continue to keep us (or at least me!) informed.

[Iguana]

Yes, thanks Phil. As expected, your stance has triggered a lot of opposition, but I'm on total agreement with you on this point.

Until children are born of ZC parents and grown up to healthy adults while strictly keeping on ZC, this modern ideology should be cautioned as potentially dangerous when steadily practiced for more than a few months.

[van]

there is one family, who's member is on Charles' forum.  He's posted videos of his family.  But, I agree,  one would have to look to the inuit or american plains indians to validate whether generations can flourish on low to zero carb.

[ys]

Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods.

That's what I had before.  These issues went away completely after I switched to low carb 5+ years ago.  Whenever I increase carb intake esp starches I don't feel as well.  Maybe some people are different?  I would not be so quick to generalize.

[24isours]

Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods. Don't let it progress into autoimmunity.

These are symptoms of low thyroid function. It's more than likely the people experiencing these symptoms were low on key minerals and vitamins that support the thyroid (selenium, vitamin a, vitamin d, iodine).

The thyroid tends to slow down on a low carb diet. Carbohydrates stimulate thyroid function. On a low carbohydrate diet it is especially important to include enough thyroid supportive nutrients.

[mango]

All I can say is Wow.  PaleoPhil, I hope it turns out that your account has been hacked and you are not the writer of these posts.  Such ranting and raving, making unsubstantiated claims, spreading fear about a zero carb lifestyle based on your limited experiences.. etc. seem quite  out of character from the scientific minded person that I thought you were.

I'm only posting in here mainly to prevent newcomers from being scared off from ridiculous posts such as this.
My experiences being on a raw ZC for close to a year now have been nothing short of spectacular. 
Amongst so many drastic improvements in the health of my mind and body, a raw ZC diet has healed me from from carpal tunnel syndrome which made it unbearable to work or sit at a desk and a small intestine bacterial overgrowth that has plagued me my entire life. 

It's funny that you also chose to bash on the autoimmune protocol and the cooked ZC diet.  I started with the autoimmune protocol and it greatly helped me, then moved on to a cooked ZC diet, and ultimately found the glorious raw ZC diet.  I wouldn't be where I was today without going through these stages individually. 
In the communities for each of these diets there are many, many people having great success.

Lex Rooker's journal singlehandedly made me believe that a diet which at the time seemed to radical compared to anything I have ever done, could be safe and benefit ones health.  I really owe a lot to that man sharing and documenting his experiences.

I fully believe *that on today, 2/3/14, that you believe* that "resistant starch" is a requirement for all individuals and would greatly benefit everyone.  But creating new topics such as this one and other posts you've recently made are not the place for this - this is what your journal is for - to document your experiments/results/beliefs on what you think is best for your own body.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, thanks Phil. As expected, your stance has triggered a lot of opposition, but I'm on total agreement with you on this point.

Until children are born of ZC parents and grown up to healthy adults while strictly keeping on ZC, this modern ideology should be cautioned as potentially dangerous when steadily practiced for more than a few months.

  Err, plenty of Inuit children have been born of ZC parents and grown to be healthy adults..........

[Projectile Vomit]

On that note, Inuit rely heavily on ocean fish and mammals for food, so perhaps their higher intake of mineral-dense ocean animals makes up for their comparative lack of carbohydrate and/or resistant starch.

I find it unfortunate that people are coming down hard on Phil regarding his changing stance on ZC and VLC. Both of these are largely experimental diets, never practiced before by most genetic lineages of Homo sapiens. Those who follow these paths are consenting to using themselves as experimental subjects, and the outcomes are anything but known. Might work great for some people and not others, might work okay for a select few and be disastrous for the vast majority, we won't know for years, or perhaps even generations.

[Iguana]

  Err, plenty of Inuit children have been born of ZC parents and grown to be healthy adults..........

So, what PP wrote below would be wrong too? I don’t think Inuits have ever been totally ZC, anyway. Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

(Inuits) presumably developed their large livers over thousands of years. I don't think it makes sense to try to do that within a single lifetime.

ZC is even more dangerous than I realized. If anything, I would have been even harsher about it in the past if I knew what I know now.

The larger Inuit livers provide them with more glycogen, which I'll bet kept them from running out of glycogen during the night if they were well fed, even though they were often not getting much carbs. Doesn't make sense to try to do what they did with a small liver.

Plus, even Eskimos didn't pass up Eskimo potatoes and probably also ate the fermented stomach contents of animals, at least a little bit. And who knows how important their high meats/fish/birds were, which were not prepared the way Aajonus claimed, as Eric pointed out.

[Iguana]

I find it unfortunate that people are coming down hard on Phil regarding his changing stance on ZC and VLC. Both of these are largely experimental diets, never practiced before by most genetic lineages of Homo sapiens. Those who follow these paths are consenting to using themselves as experimental subjects, and the outcomes are anything but known. Might work great for some people and not others, might work okay for a select few and be disastrous for the vast majority, we won't know for years, or perhaps even generations.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more.

[24isours]

Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

Seafood is also rich in iodine. I truly believe the extra iodine I do take does contribute to my success on RZC.

[goodsamaritan]

I think Raw ZC should be used as a temporary remedy, not long term.... like raw veganism... temporary. 

...And not for beginners of RPD.

I used 3 days of Raw ZC for my then 5 yr old daughter to stop inflammation in a tooth infection.  The dentist wanted antibiotics for 7 days.  I gave Raw ZC to the girl for 3 days.  The dentist said in 3 days the pain will be taken away by antibiotics.  Raw ZC took away the pain in 2 days.

I gave her raw bone marrow, raw liver and raw muscle meat plus mineral water for 3 days.

I was on raw horse meat and horse fat and water for almost a week when my son was bleeding with intussusception... and that raw ZC thing was just what I needed for tense concentration and successfully heal him.  It was more of a subconscious thing when that happened because that was the only food available to me at that time.

[goodsamaritan]

I would like to add that I put our driver on Raw ZC for 8 days to heal his pneumonia.

Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

Seafood is also rich in iodine. I truly believe the extra iodine I do take does contribute to my success on RZC.

Most of the grazing land today may be depleted of the minerals they should contain.  And land around the world is not uniformly nutritious.  While the ocean may have more pristine built in nutrition left in it. 

I'm thankful for the raw ZC experimentors like you because it gives healers like me ideas how this can be used for healing.

[24isours]

Most of the grazing land today may be depleted of the minerals they should contain.  And land around the world is not uniformly nutritious.  While the ocean may have more pristine built in nutrition left in it. 

You also have to remember that iodine is a key player in protecting our bodies from pollutants, radiation, toxins and heavy metals (probably the best chelator). The more of such we are exposed to - the more we need.

I'm thankful for the raw ZC experimentors like you because it gives healers like me ideas how this can be used for healing.

I'm glad I can be of any help!

[PaleoPhil]

Hi folks, My dear uncle, a good soul, just died rather suddenly right when he seemed to be recovering from a bad virus unrelated to this topic. Luckily, he and I are both Irish (2nd and 3rd generation), and the real Irish are certain that their departed relatives are somehow still around nearby in the other world, even though I'm not religious (don't ask me to explain it, I don't understand it myself). Thus the wake is likely to be more like a family reunion than a mourning session, especially since he lived many years. I always get a kick when a non-Irish priest does the sermon and remarks on how happy the Irish seem to be at wakes and funerals. I don't know about the younger generations though, they seem to be changing.

I'll try to quickly drum up some answers here. In case I don't have time for much more answers, I may have to leave it to Eric and Iguana and anyone else who understands the topic somewhat or has had a chance to read up on resistant starch to answer additional questions for now, if they can. Thanks guys if you can, and thank heavens there are some people here who see through the arguments and excuses for the dangerous chronic ZC/VLC starchless diets (I'm not talking about careful, intermittent days of VLC).

This is awful, because I think this topic is a matter of life and death too. Anyone who's familiar with my posts knows I've never said that before, and it indeed is not like me at all, so you know I'm not just making it up. How I do wish this was just due to my account being hacked.

Yes, I'm trying to frighten people and shake them up. I'm frightened myself. It's looking like a nightmare that we're only just starting to get the gist of. Richard Nikoley said that there will be more information to come. I had seen lots of reports of minor issues from cooked VLCers and ZCers before. Now it seems they are becoming more serious. From the early indications, it seems that insufficient starch, especially resistant starch, is one of the key factors. It's looking like Dr. McDougall was right to a certain degree, in that starchy foods are apparently important foods and probably shouldn't be severely restricted, much less entirely elminated from the diet.

I likely wouldn't have time to answer all the questions or debate every critic even if it weren't for this personal matter, because it's a perfect storm that is currently swirling in the Paleo and LC dieting worlds. All sorts of people are coming out and saying "Yeah, I have those problems too, but the LC gurus and most avid followers said to ignore them and...

just eat more fat
give it time
don't worry about it
that's natural physiological insulin resistance
constipation is no big deal, just take Natural Calm Magnesium
there's no such thing as a starch/carb deficiency
I don't see how resistant starch is necessary
you can get all the carbs you need from whole sweet raw organic fruits or ...
etc.

Sound familiar? It turns out it's mostly or all bogus. Don't believe them.

I thought of a temporary compromise solution. Chronic ZC has never been tried before by any human population (at least not one that survived) in all of human history (those who think it has are probably not going to listen to me, so I'm speaking to the rest of you). Given that there are now reports of much more severe problems caused by chronic cooked VLC diets (you'll find them at Free the Animal, Mark's Daily Apple and probably other forums) than the issues it is generally being used to treat, and given that we don't know how much of a protection rawness is from those problems, why don't folks who aren't adamant about it take a one month break from zero carbing, to give this thing time to play out, keeping an eye and ear out for more information?

Just a thought. I'm not telling anyone what to do, just praying some will pay attention and look into it, quickly.

Over the years you made 'discoveries' of all sorts that appear to you to be the next best thing, and now RS.   And of course it very well may be.    Let's see.

Heh, good one, Van. Luckily, there are half a dozen or so "experts" who are saying this stuff, including at least one MD (Spanish Caravan), and the number is likely to grow as more and more followers demand answers (if you're a fan of one of the gurus and they haven't spoken out on the topic, then it's time to ask them about it), so you don't have to believe me.

@Hanna, Thanks, hope this helps.

That's what I had before.  These issues went away completely after I switched to low carb 5+ years ago.  Whenever I increase carb intake esp starches I don't feel as well.

Same here, that's one of the early signs that the gut bacteria have been messed up. I'm working on trying to remedy that now myself. I'm currently using mainly potato starch and raw dried green plantain slices with some success but still have a ways to go. I hope I can fix this. There's plenty of info on potato starch, plantains and other RS sources from Tatertot at a couple blogs and forums, which you can probably easily find by googling Tatertot and resistant starch. Unfortunately for folks here, his focus and just about everyone else's is on cooked sources.

Thanks for sharing that important type of case I forgot to mention and my own at that {smacks own head}, ys. I'm praying that your and my problems with starches won't turn into the severe cases that others reportedly have been, and I hope to god that none of the people I told about Paleo or Dr. Bernstein, and none of the people they told about them, and anyone who was influenced by me here (which I hope is none) is in dire straits or headed that way. I've been trying to check around, but it's hard with a death of a great man in the clan.

Maybe I shouldn't post more links for now, because I saw someone accuse Richard that this is a marketing gimmick for his book. I have nothing to do with Richard's book, but it occurs to me that some might ass-u-me otherwise.

@mango I like Lex quite a bit too, which is why I'm trying to warn him. Boy do I hope I'm wrong about the importance of resistant starch and other prebiotics. I'm not taking that chance myself and I already appear to have benefited from RS, according to my glucometer and thermometer, and they haven't lied to me lately that I know of. You're free to do what you wish, of course.

@Eric, Don't worry, I expected the hullabaloo, and you're right on the money as is often the case.

@Iguana, And you're on the money about the Inuit with their Eskimo potato, fermented stomach contents, tree barks and saps and such.

@GS, Right on, man--temporary, not long term.

[PaleoPhil]

Then there is the awkward point that babies who are being naturally breastfed are in ketosis the whole time, which rather indicates that ketosis can be healthy!

Ah, good point I forgot to mention, thanks for the reminder, Tyler.
 
I should clarify that there is apparently a bad form of ketosis and a good form (bear in mind this stuff is all rather new, as no one in their right mind ever tried chronic ketogenic diets until recently--even Atkins had just a temporary induction phase). The good one is when you eat something like mother’s milk that contains prebiotics that feed your gut bacteria, in addition to the food for yourself (or the infant, in this case). That way, both you and the bacteria are getting fed.
 
So the safe way to do ketosis is by eating prebiotics and maybe a modest amount of some foods rich in SCFAs, not by severely limiting carb intake long-term. Even then, I don't know how often it's safe to go into ketosis via prebiotics.
 
The bad form is where you severely restrict your carb intake and feed only yourself by eating lots of fat and little or no prebiotics. Then you feed yourself but starve your good bacteria, a recipe for eventual disaster, though it may take many years to occur.
 
Remember, mother’s milk contains carbs (reportedly 39% - see http://filteredhealth.com/435/paul-jaminet-ph-d-evidence-on-aging-and-disease). Humans are designed to eat some carbs (as well as fats and proteins) and also some prebiotics. Starchy foods contain both starchy carbs and a prebiotic called “resistant starch” that feeds our gut bacteria, which then feed us some more with fat that they produce. Aren't those little buggers sweet? 

[Hanna]

Van, Tyler, how much carbs do you eat a day?

Thirdly, I like many before me did RVLC for many years before going back to eating more carbs, and I never suffered from cold hands and feet or any serious problem.

Tyler, as far as I remember, you eat cooked carbs frequently or occasionally, don`t you?
How much carbs did you eat ON AVERAGE when eating RVLC?

[TylerDurden]

Nowadays, I am being constantly encouraged/pushed to eat more raw fruit and  veg (better than being expected to eat cooked foods, though)so probably eat   about  250g (?) of raw carbs a day on average. I am far more alert when I do RVLC and have far less appetite so spend less on food  but I have been a bit more careless with my  health these days as I have long since recovered from the painful illnesses I had pre-RPD diet.

I occasionally eat cooked carbs. It's those blasted Viennese cakes.

During those years when I did RVLC, I would eat a banana a week, at most. Or perhaps just an apple or one other fruit,  instead of the banana, that sort of thing.

[Inger]

Hi from another (almost) raw zero carber, successfully since over 4 years.

I think 24isours point about seafood is a great point. I also think, good water / hydration is huge when we speak about a body that burns fat for fuel.
There are so many things you can do wrong... and the fault might very well not be the keto diet... just sayin'...

On Charles forum are plenty of successful zero carbers.. doing 100% cooked meat diet since many years. There are a couple of women that was infertile even, and now have healthy ZC babies! Pictures and videos to check out too. Yes, there are some having issues too, but I do not really wonder eating grilled chicken wings.. dairy etc...... The more successful usually keep it at cleaner food sources. I have followed the forum a bit for my own personal research. Pretty remarkable that you can stay so healthy / heal from many issues on a cooked meat diet, seriously.

I have to say I really love my WOE. I feel just great!  I do eat lots of raw oysters and seafood too and seaweeds. Maybe that is why I do so well. My liver is in great shape (was testing last fall, and I test regularly - all my labs were great!)
But. I also avoid artificial light at night + take care to get daylight in my eyes, avoid EMFs as good as it gets, I go early to bed, drink plenty of good water from own well, tan a lot nude all summer long + do earthing, I let my body feel the natural temps where I live (cold) and I exercise my mind...

[Inger]

No need to eat tubers and unnatural potato starch to get RS. Or feed the bacteria in our gut. Raw fresh nuts are a GREAT RS source and totally natural and it is easy to get wild nuts too so no need to eat anything cultivated either.
Wild greens picked in the yard with some dirt on are great for our gut too... as is wild berries and high meat!

The last Paleo craze is RS and more carbs... easy to get fooled I know. But we need to look deeper and also from a 30 000 foot view. And for me, the most important question arise;

Is this NATURAL? If not, I just know what my answer will be.

[PaleoPhil]

Do you know which nuts have the most RS Inger, aside from the ones I mentioned that were on the list? I'd like to learn about any others. thanks

[TylerDurden]

Nuts contain antinutrients, although those antinutrients do get reduced a bit if you leave them in water for 24 hours before eating them.

Just read about resistant starch on wikipedia.-

"RS1 Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains
 RS2 Resistant starch that occurs in its natural granular form, such as uncooked potato, green banana flour and high amylose corn
 RS3 Resistant starch that is formed when starch-containing foods are cooked and cooled such as in legumes,[2] bread, cornflakes and cooked-and-chilled potatoes, pasta salad or sushi rice. Occurs due to retrogradation, which refers to the collective processes of dissolved starch becoming less soluble after being heated and dissolved in water and then cooled.
 RS4 Starches that have been chemically modified to resist digestion. This type of resistant starches can have a wide variety of structures and are not found in nature
"

Seeds , whole grains and legumes are harldly suitable  given antinutrients in them. Uncooked potato has high levels in particular. I remember one rock star mentioning how he had eaten raw potato and nothing else for a month and nearly died. As for rice,  bread etc:, all are similiarly unsuitable.