Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster

[Inger]

IDK Phil... I need to research that. I just know they contain RS and as IDK what nuts have more or less I just eat a variety preferring wild nuts / seeds...

Actually if nuts are fresh and raw and organic they have many health benefits (rancid or heated nuts are bad!). I know they have antinutrients too but a little bit on a otherwise carnivorious diet I guess will not hurt. Maybe it will be just hormetic

I do nuts here and there and I feel great and have had no issues as long as I am VERY picky with the quality. They MUST be raw. And fresh!

[Hanna]

PP was concerned about rising blood glucose, among others, and this is something experienced by you, Inger, too.

These are symptoms of low thyroid function. It's more than likely the people experiencing these symptoms were low on key minerals and vitamins that support the thyroid (selenium, vitamin a, vitamin d, iodine).

How do you ensure to include these nutrients? NEMs? Special foods?
What about your blood glucose?

Mine has been low (but within the norm) whenever it was measured although I eat fruit high in fructose.

[Inger]

I am not worried about my highish blood glucose at all anymore Hanna. It is not pathological when you look at the context..... I have done my research believe me.
When you run on fat/ketones and live in the cold this is what will happen and it is for a reason.

The nutrients mentioned above for thyroid health you get all from seafood in abundance... 
That is why seafood is so important.

[TylerDurden]

The seafod explanation is a bit glib. What about those Arctic  tribes which did not live near the coast, yet lived far north where no plants were easily available?

[Hanna]

Which tribes?
Seafood is an interesting aspect. I eat quite „low carb“ (although nothing near zero carb) and eat seafoods very regularly too. Currently, I eat seaweeds almost every day, and I love and eat them since several years.

[PaleoPhil]

I am not worried about my highish blood glucose at all anymore Hanna.

I wasn't either at first, because so many were claiming that this is just "natural physiological insulin resistance" and totally benign (it struck me as a little odd at the time that so many were just accepting this without providing much evidence, but no one was saying otherwise, even folks who seemed fairly skeptical, like a skeptical physician VLC Paleo blogger and Lex Rooker--the physician later increased his starch intake, and started talking about the Old Friends Hypothesis being more important, which I and Tyler and some others had been reading a bit about too, so I was probably more open to that idea than most Paleos, and that was another clue for me along the way), but I now I think it was one the early signs that something was wrong.

Resistant starch quickly reversed this for me, whereas increasing my consumption of raw fruits and honey or cooked starches low in resistant starch didn't. It hasn't fixed everything, though, so it's not an instant cure for everything, but that's still pretty remarkable to me.

Beware Inger, I think Dr. Kruse is unfortunately one of the more wrong of the gurus. Be on the lookout for of any of his followers reporting high or gradually rising fasting blood glucose, low WBC, low T3, hypothyroid, feeling cold, cold extremities, vitamin and mineral deficiencies (especially magnesium and B vitamins), poor sleep, waking during the night, low dream recall, dreaming in only black and white, food intolerances and other symptoms associated with VLC and low intakes of RS. These problems seem to hit women and people with histories of antibiotic use first.

Tigernuts (or tiger nuts?) are actually a sedge tuber and are one of the more interesting starchy foods. Not only are they edible raw, everyone who as tried them and reported back says they are quite tasty. Apparently, they are so tasty that children in WW2 Britain loved them, according to this guy who remembered loving them so much he decided to see if he could find them again and then to sell them:
TigerNutsIntro

Tyler, Maybe you could ask some old timers in Britain if they remember tigernuts?

[Iguana]

Ah, the other name of tigernuts is chufas. Yeah, rather tasty: I had some years ago. Orkos sells them but I forgot to order it lately.

[24isours]

How do you ensure to include these nutrients? NEMs? Special foods?
What about your blood glucose?

I've been supplementing Iodine for almost four years now as I rarely eat seafood. I make sure to get my Vitamin D from sunshine in the summer and during winter months I supplement with a whole food source. I supplement an extra 3/4 teaspoon of sea salt throughout the day mixed in water. The Vitamin A comes from organ meat and beef is high in selenium.

I have not checked my glucose since I've started the diet.

The seafod explanation is a bit glib.

The seafood explanation is a hypothesis I based on research proving a low carb diet slows down thyroid function and my ability to thrive on a RZC diet. Some of the symptoms you had experienced during your RZC trial were reversed for me and countless others a short time after they started supplementing extra Iodine.
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Conclusion:
Research says thyroid hormones are produced at a much faster rate when carbohydrates are included in the diet and hormone production drops significantly during a low carbohydrate diet. Iodine a long with proper nutrients has been shown to normalize thyroid function in those with under active, over active,  or autoimmune thyroid conditions.

(I don't think any of these studies used a zero carbohydrate diet, just a LOW carbohydrate diet. This would make me think the production of hormones process would slow down even further.)

What about those Arctic tribes which did not live near the coast, yet lived far north where no plants were easily available?

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I don't see why they would need any sea vegetables with an abundant source of raw seafood.

[TylerDurden]

The "old-timers" in WW2 Britain were forced to endure massive shortages due to rationing, this stupid practice going on until 1951!  I know nothing about a foolish craze for  inadequate foods like tigernuts but if they did so, it was only because better, healthier foods were not so readily available. I do recall my  father being a lot more sensible and  successsfully shooting  wild rabbits and wild hares instead. Only catch was that his father told him off for not giving away the plunder to locals in need.

[TylerDurden]

I don't see why they would need any sea vegetables with an abundant source of raw seafood.

  The point is that those tribes which had no access to the coast would have had no access to seafood or seaweed, and still managed to thrive, thus disproving any iodine claims.

My own experience of RVLC was extremely successful with several advantages over higher carb diets, with none of the bad experiences I had on RZC experiments, barring the very minor issue of not doing as well on anaerobic exercise activity as when on high carb diets. Over those  RVLC years, I did not eat much at all  in the way of raw seafood  - I indulged in that food-group  more after I foolishly went higher-carb years later. 

I should add that, given my past health-problems pre-RPD diet, my thyroid and adrenals were severely damaged, so I have even more reason to disbelieve the thyroid_VLC claims. Whatever the case, given the poor nutritional content of foods rich in resistant starch, I can be certain that RS foods are by no means "superfoods".

[24isours]

The point is that those tribes which had no access to the coast would have had no access to seafood or seaweed, and still managed to thrive, thus disproving any iodine claims.

What about the inland water ways? What about the water beneath their feet? Did they really have to be near the coast to have access to raw seafood?

I should add that, given my past health-problems pre-RPD diet, my thyroid and adrenals were severely damaged, so I have even more reason to disbelieve the thyroid_VLC claims.

Why do you disbelieve the claims? It is proven that a low carbohydrate intake slows down thyroid function.
Is it because you were eating a high carb diet before you started the RZC and your energy levels seemed high?
Just because you are eating more carbohydrates and your thyroid is working faster doesn't mean it is working efficiently -especially if you are low in Iodine to begin with.

[goodsamaritan]

Iodine levels from the Raw ZC practitioners... how did you get your iodine levels raised to a good enough level?  Sea food?  Iodine supplements?  Any tests we can do?

[24isours]

Iodine levels from the Raw ZC practitioners... how did you get your iodine levels raised to a good enough level?  Sea food?  Iodine supplements?  Any tests we can do?

I started supplementing Iodide at 50mg for the first few years. As I tweaked my diet and started getting adequate companion nutrients I noticed I needed less and less. I would think for RPDieters a good dose to start at would be around the lowest recommended dose which is around 6.5mg. You should also look into Dr. Brownstein's Iodine research.  I personally stick with IODIDE supplements and not elemental IODINE as Iodide is sourced from food. Some doctors claim that you need both Iodide and Iodine because certain tissues/glands require the elemental version (Iodine) over Iodide but it has been proven that the body can convert Iodide to Iodine when needed.

Here are some useful links:

http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/iodine-fulfillment-therapy.html
http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-10/IOD_10.htm

[24isours]

Also see:
http://healyourselfathome.com/HOW/NEWSTARTS/1_NUTRITION/MINERALS/IODINE/HOW_TO_SUPPLEMENT/lugols_dosage_guidelines.aspx

[TylerDurden]

What about the inland water ways? What about the water beneath their feet? Did they really have to be near the coast to have access to raw seafood?

  The water beneath their feet? You mean, the ice above the ground! Err, fish do not generally enjoy swimming in glaciers and the like.  To answer your question, to have access they would have needed to be near a river to get freshwater(not seawater) fish, which is no guarantee. Migrating tribes would have rather relied on pemmican and similiar foods, judging from sources, in order to sustain themselves rather than eating  seafood.

Why do you disbelieve the claims? It is proven that a low carbohydrate intake slows down thyroid function.
Is it because you were eating a high carb diet before you started the RZC and your energy levels seemed high?
Just because you are eating more carbohydrates and your thyroid is working faster doesn't mean it is working efficiently -especially if you are low in Iodine to begin with.

You completely misunderstand. I wholly disbelieve the vague claims re iodine and VLC because I was for many years on an RVLC diet, with, at best,  no more than a banana(or similiar fruit) a week , and I  really thrived on that diet without this nonsense of needing extra iodine supplements(or indeed any other supplements, for that matter). I did suffer when I transitioned to a wholly  RZC diet around that time, but I started then actually getting some initial health benefits, even over what I got from an RVLC diet, such as increased alertness, before, after c 3 weeks into RZC, starting to suffer from worse and worse health problems until I had to give  RZC up. I presume I am someone who only needs a tiny amount of carbs every so often. I also trust people like  Lex or Wodgina or Ioanna who seem to do just fine minus any iodine supplementation. Now, maybe  those successful on RZC have larger livers or better thyroid functions than people like me, who knows? At any rate, such claims are way less bizarre than this peddling of harmful  "resistant starch".

[goodsamaritan]

You guys may be talking about aquatic life from brackish water, rivers, lakes... not just from the ocean?

[Inger]

Looks like there are some who really got worse with raw ZC. Like Brad on our forum

Hi Juzeza,

Its been a while but I think I went zero carb for about 3-4months, I would say going Zero Carb was the most detrimental thing I have ever done to my health, and I've done a lot of bad shit, lol.  My body completely crashed, weight dropped off, my body demineralised and I almost died.  I've found that a small amount of carbs is necessary for optimum health, either from Raw Honey, fruit, veggies (even cooked) or raw dairy. I would say around 5% of caloric intake. Whatever works for the individual.  I would listen to your body and try not to get carried away with a specific type of diet touted by many, even if it worked for them.  There are no rules and no ones keeping score.

Brady

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/before-and-after-photos/brady's-before-and-after-pics-gained-20kg-in-3-months/50/

I wonder about many things. Looks we all need to be careful and listen to our body. But we sure live in a very unnatural world most of us. So even if raw zerocarb could be ideal in a natural environment human today might need some help from other sources. What those are we just need to figure out as it seems to be very different. No one knows how Brad would have done if he had taken Iodine supplements or lots of seafood with his RZC

I often think, it is so freaking hard to know when you do not try all the variables. How can we say what worked or what not in the end... weird world. 

I just know for me close to zerocarb is just awesome. Some days I am zerocarb and some days I have a few carbs, like seaweeds, raw onions, some nuts. In summer/fall I eat as much wild berries as I want, and it is much! And also some other stuff from the garden. I do think seasonal eating is best. And I do ice baths too. I just was two minutes in the 0 degree C river.. I never regret it. Makes me feel so awesome. So maybe cold could be a factor too. At least here up north were it is cold in winter.

I also do coconut oil, raw and high quality. That helps too at least in the beginning of changing to a fatburner.

It is just, we can share what we do, and how it works for us. And be honest and tell when we get issues too. That way we can all learn. 

[Inger]

You guys may be talking about aquatic life from brackish water, rivers, lakes... not just from the ocean?

Seafood from lakes and rivers have some Iodine too and other important minerals

[goodsamaritan]

Looks like there are some who really got worse with raw ZC. Like Brad on our forum

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/before-and-after-photos/brady's-before-and-after-pics-gained-20kg-in-3-months/50/

I wonder about many things. Looks we all need to be careful and listen to our body. But we sure live in a very unnatural world most of us. So even if raw zerocarb could be ideal in a natural environment human today might need some help from other sources. What those are we just need to figure out as it seems to be very different. No one knows how Brad would have done if he had taken Iodine supplements or lots of seafood with his RZC

I often think, it is so freaking hard to know when you do not try all the variables. How can we say what worked or what not in the end... weird world. 

I just know for me close to zerocarb is just awesome. Some days I am zerocarb and some days I have a few carbs, like seaweeds, raw onions, some nuts. In summer/fall I eat as much wild berries as I want, and it is much! And also some other stuff from the garden. I do think seasonal eating is best. And I do ice baths too. I just was two minutes in the 0 degree C river.. I never regret it. Makes me feel so awesome. So maybe cold could be a factor too. At least here up north were it is cold in winter.

I also do coconut oil, raw and high quality. That helps too at least in the beginning of changing to a fatburner.

It is just, we can share what we do, and how it works for us. And be honest and tell when we get issues too. That way we can all learn. 

Geographically we are far apart, living in various places, where as I learned that nutrition stuff is not evenly spread out across the globe... the kind of nutrition is also variable... so many factors.  I'm just so glad Geoff / Tyler decided Raw Zero Carb to be included in this forum.

[Inger]

Tyler... maybe your thyroid is really bad. Maybe you have lots of bromide/chloride/fluoride toxins in your body?

Did you had to eat fluoride pills as a kid? I did. Very sad I think today. Those poisons are not easy to get rid of I can tell you... I do believe Iodine supplementation can help with that. I am not 100% sure about that yet tho, but I tend to think it is very useful thing for most, at least the one who got lots of those other halides. It just needs to be done carefully and slowly.

[eveheart]

I started supplementing Iodide at 50mg for the first few years. As I tweaked my diet and started getting adequate companion nutrients I noticed I needed less and less. I would think for RPDieters a good dose to start at would be around the lowest recommended dose which is around 6.5mg. You should also look into Dr. Brownstein's Iodine research.  I personally stick with IODIDE supplements and not elemental IODINE as Iodide is sourced from food. Some doctors claim that you need both Iodide and Iodine because certain tissues/glands require the elemental version (Iodine) over Iodide but it has been proven that the body can convert Iodide to Iodine when needed.

24isours, I have skimmed your journal to try to put your success into perspective, and I have followed Dr. Brownstein's recommendations myself.

While my VLC raw paleo makes me feel great (mental clarity, low inflammation, excellent blood sugar levels, etc.), my blood work in the auto-immune department (thyroid and other involvement) remains the same: I have not improved my glandular function, and I still test positive for antibodies).

Do you have any personal blood-test evidence that shows improvement that would be attributed to Brownstein's protocol and not to elimination of dairy, gluten, etc?

[TylerDurden]

Well, it was obvious from the start, that many of us would need to go down  different paths to regain their health

[TylerDurden]

Tyler... maybe your thyroid is really bad. Maybe you have lots of bromide/chloride/fluoride toxins in your body?

Did you had to eat fluoride pills as a kid? I did. Very sad I think today. Those poisons are not easy to get rid of I can tell you... I do believe Iodine supplementation can help with that. I am not 100% sure about that yet tho, but I tend to think it is very useful thing for most, at least the one who got lots of those other halides. It just needs to be done carefully and slowly.

Never had to ingest fluoride pills! Also, I was in Austria for most of my childhood where the water comes  straight from the mountains. And, no my thyroid seems fine, at any rate, I do not seem to have any of the thyroid-related health problems I had had pre-RPD diet.

[24isours]

Tyler:

The water beneath their feet? You mean, the ice above the ground! Err, fish do not generally enjoy swimming in glaciers and the like.  To answer your question, to have access they would have needed to be near a river to get freshwater(not seawater) fish, which is no guarantee. Migrating tribes would have rather relied on pemmican and similiar foods, judging from sources, in order to sustain themselves rather than eating  seafood.

Just like Inger said, seafood from lakes and rivers also contain Iodine.
Iodine is also abundant in polar atmospheres. Didn't the Arctic Tribes melt ice and snow for water as well?

Check this out:

'The volatilisation of iodine from the ocean and release to the atmosphere in the ice-covered polar regions has been studied. Laboratory experiments involving sea ice- and ice associated- diatoms have shown how the extreme conditions experienced in sea ice brine channels may lead to an increase in production of organic forms of iodine. Trends were observed in production by different classes of enzymes, active in the oxidative metabolism of the cell. An enhancement in trace gas concentrations due to the concentration effect of solvent volume reduction has also been demonstrated. Field campaigns have been undertaken in both the Arctic and Antarctic. Ship-based measurements in the Weddell Sea have implicated I2 as a key species in the mechanism of enhancement of atmospheric iodine in this region. Organic and inorganic forms of iodine were measured in seawater, sea ice and the atmosphere. On the Brunt ice shelf, enhanced concentrations of CH3I and C2H5I were measured in the snow firn air, with a diurnal profile, suggesting the snow may be a source of these compounds. These measurements have implications for atmospheric mixing ratios of IO, measured from the ship and validated by satellite data, and new particle formation. This is the first combined in situ study in Antarctica of organic and inorganic iodine compounds in sea water, ice and air. On the Western Antarctic Peninsula, IO was detected in the atmosphere, and seawater measurements of iodocarbons have demonstrated how organic compounds of iodine are enhanced during the phytoplankton bloom; these measurements are also a first. Iodine emissions in the sea ice zone were also quantified in two campaigns in the Arctic environment. High concentrations of halocarbons were measured in the brine of sea ice, with respect to the water below, in the Arctic Ocean. High atmospheric halocarbon mixing ratios and flux calculations have demonstrated the effect on the atmosphere above. In the Canadian sub-Arctic, where the ice had quite different physical properties, halocarbon concentrations were the highest ever recorded for some compounds, due to extreme concentration in very cold ice. The enhancement of organic forms of iodine in sea ice has therefore been demonstrated. I2 has been implicated as a key species in iodine emissions. Therefore, understanding has been furthered on the chemistry of iodine in sea ice and polar atmosphere. - See more at: http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.569386#sthash.zHE4xS55.dpuf'

It seems Iodine is plentiful in polar regions.
---------------

I did suffer when I transitioned to a wholly  RZC diet around that time, but I started then actually getting some initial health benefits, even over what I got from an RVLC diet, such as increased alertness, before, after c 3 weeks into RZC, starting to suffer from worse and worse health problems until I had to give  RZC up

I'm not toting Iodine as a cure all as most likely other factors could have been involved with you not being successful on your RZC journey. Maybe you weren't getting enough fat solubles? Vitamin D? Vitamin A? I don't know..

I also trust people like  Lex or Wodgina or Ioanna who seem to do just fine minus any iodine supplementation. Now, maybe  those successful on RZC have larger livers or better thyroid functions than people like me, who knows? At any rate, such claims are way less bizarre than this peddling of harmful  "resistant starch".

Less bizarre, but still bizarre? Lol, Tyler...  I'm not familiar with the way Wodgina or Ioanna go about their diets. They are completely RZC? I know Lex was having some problems initially with the diet and he mentioned that he had low Vitamin D levels and laying out in the sun helped him with his teeth.  Personally, I've noticed after getting more sun I had a dramatic increase in exercise tolerance on this diet.

Eveheart:

24isours, I have skimmed your journal to try to put your success into perspective, and I have followed Dr. Brownstein's recommendations myself.

While my VLC raw paleo makes me feel great (mental clarity, low inflammation, excellent blood sugar levels, etc.), my blood work in the auto-immune department (thyroid and other involvement) remains the same: I have not improved my glandular function, and I still test positive for antibodies).

At one point I started noticing I was actually becoming hyperthyroid from such a large dose of Iodine. At time I'd have symptoms of hypothyroid as well. It wasn't until I lowered my dose down to single digit milligram levels I started feeling better. I would think that taking Iodine at such a high dose while following a RPD (assuming it contains enough glandular supportive nutrients) can actually cause problems. There have been several studies of long term high dose Iodine supplementation causing all sorts of problems for people, including autoimmune issues. Are you taking a high dose? If so, maybe this could be keeping you from seeing improvements? How is your Vitamin D level?

Do you have any personal blood-test evidence that shows improvement that would be attributed to Brownstein's protocol and not to elimination of dairy, gluten, etc?

Regarding gluten and dairy, I know they both can really take a toll on thyroid function. Eliminating both surely did improve my health but I was still having problems. It wasn't until I started RZC when I noticed the greatest improvement in health. I began eliminating dairy and gluten about the same time I started the Iodine protocol. During the Iodine protocol I did a lot of experimenting with my diet/lifestyle and eventually came to conclusion that supplementing was causing me problems. It seemed the longer I had taken the Iodine while improving my Vitamin A and D levels the less I needed. Maybe the improvements weren't caused by the Iodine at all, I don't know. Research indicates most of us are deficient in the mineral and it is proven to help keep the thyroid in working order and the body cleansed of heavy metals, toxins, radiation, etc.. I guess if I stop supplementing Iodine and start noticing changes in my health I would know if it had a significant impact on my health gains but I don't think I'd want to ..

I do not have any blood tests. I actually haven't gotten any blood tests since starting RZC.

I'm not telling anyone what to do or what to supplement with, or at least I don't mean to. If I come across that way I do apologize but I'm just sharing what is currently working for me and hope it can help others in some way. Thank you all for the discussion and it is great to be a part of this forum.

[Iguana]

I know nothing about a foolish craze for  inadequate foods like tigernuts but if they did so, it was only because better, healthier foods were not so readily available.

Why would chufas / tigernuts be inadequate? Since it can be found wild and can be very tasty for a lot of people, what’s wrong? Our paleo ancestors certainly ate it sometimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus Cyperus esculentus (or chufa sedge, nut grass, yellow nutsedge, tigernut sedge, or earth almond) is a crop of the sedge family native to warm temperate to subtropical regions of the Northern Hemisphere. It can be found wild, as a weed or as a crop. It has been cultivated since the fourth millennium BC in Egypt, and for several centuries in Southern Europe.

Nutritional value

Despite its name, tigernut is a tuber. However, its chemical composition shares characteristics with tubers and with nuts. It has been reported to be a “health” food, since its consumption can help prevent heart disease and thrombosis and is said to activate blood circulation and reduce the risk of colon cancer.[14] This tuber is rich in energy content (starch, fat, sugar, and protein), minerals (mainly phosphorus and potassium), and vitamins E and C thus making this tuber also suitable for diabetics. Tigernut tubers contain almost twice the quantity of starch as potato or sweet potato tubers. The oil of the tuber was found to contain 18% saturated (palmitic acid and stearic acid) and 82% unsaturated (oleic acid and linoleic acid) fatty acids.[15] The moderately high content of phytosterols further enriches the quality and value of tigernut oil as a food source.

What is a “healthy” food? Sorry, I don’t understand this concept of “healthy foods”. Why would there be foods always “healthy” for everyone at every time and in every amount? I only mention the paragraph “Nutritional value” of Wikipedia for info, not because I care about such considerations / suppositions.