Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster

[24isours]

It’s the same for every food: when we have enough of it we feel it, either by the stuff  becoming less and less tasty or by any other feeling such as a slight nausea, for example. This works well enough only with raw, unprocessed, unmixed, unseasoned paleo or nearly paleo stuff. 

I don't agree. I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day. The next day I'll have joint inflammation all over my body as well as fatigue which is most likely caused by the anti nutrients. Did you ever think it could be possible for the body to over ride such instincts of sensing these anti nutrients, etc, because of its desperate need for satiety? None of these symptoms come about while on my ketogenic/carnivorous diet. I'll eat my meal and be completely satiated without any harmful effects. As a matter of fact the mental and physical well being I get from eating these foods cannot be matched by eating plant foods. My point is, why not consistently eat the most nutrient dense, energy dense, and bioavailable food (meat/fat)?

If you’re fully satisfied that way and are never attracted by the smell of other raw foods, then maybe meat and fat are the only foods you need at this time. But such a condition normally doesn’t last more than few months. At least you should check from time to time by smelling all the other foods you stumble upon. In the wild, meat of large mammals is not always very easy to obtain!

Before agriculture came about, why is there any reason to believe that copious amounts of meat and fat weren't always available for human consumption? The Paleolithic Era was known for it's megafauna.

[van]

It’s the same for every food: when we have enough of it we feel it, either by the stuff  becoming less and less tasty or by any other feeling such as a slight nausea, for example. This works well enough only with raw, unprocessed, unmixed, unseasoned paleo or nearly paleo stuff.   
It’s possible, and we are more or less all in this case. But most wild animals also regularly eat foods containing what is called “anti-nutrients”.
If you’re fully satisfied that way and are never attracted by the smell of other raw foods, then maybe meat and fat are the only foods you need at this time. But such a condition normally doesn’t last more than few months. At least you should check from time to time by smelling all the other foods you stumble upon. In the wild, meat of large mammals is not always very easy to obtain!   
Our cravings are formed by memory of previous experiences — or worse experiences with the cooked foodstuff and when on standard cooked diet — and since our needs change over time, cravings don’t necessarily reflect our current needs. We shouldn’t rely on them, but rather on our senses of smell and taste.

I don’t know about such effect of exercise, never experienced that and it’s the first time I read something like that. After a lot of exercise I’m generally hungry, not always for meat and also I don’t always have meat at home: in Europe or when traveling around the World, meat suitable for us raw paleo dieters is not easily available. Then I may have sea fish, shellfish or eggs instead. It’s very likely much safer to alternate this way. See this GCB’s post:
 http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/is-it-dangerous-to-eat-too-much-meat/msg80452/#msg80452 
 I think that there probably exists a huge difference between GCB's advise on eating too much meat,, in that while at Orkos, time after time,  I witnessed long time instinctive eaters eat very large portions of meat.  In my opinion,  they ate more protein than the body could use for maintenance and repair,, thus the rest was an overload for those purposes, and the byproduct of that excess is toxic to some degree.   This is what I think GCB meant.  As opposed to eating smaller amounts of meat more frequently to sustain the body's need for protein for maintenance and repair.  I have significantly cut down my portions of protein, and spread them through out the day and feel all the better.   If one were to look at a hunter gatherer (especially as Iguana likes to point out that big animals were not always available) through out the day, he/she would have eaten all sorts of small protein critters, including frogs, insects, snakes, snails, eggs etc..  thus more or less grazing.   I doubt that 'they' collected small bits of food and at the end of the day ate it all.  But whether or not, I still think it's an overload for the body to ever eat more protein than what the body needs for maintenance and repair.      Of course if one doesn't have additional carbs or fats and will starve without the calories converted to glucose from excess protein, than that's a different story.

[van]

I don't agree. I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day. The next day I'll have joint inflammation all over my body as well as fatigue which is most likely caused by the anti nutrients. Did you ever think it could be possible for the body to over ride such instincts of sensing these anti nutrients, etc, because of its desperate need for satiety? None of these symptoms come about while on my ketogenic/carnivorous diet. I'll eat my meal and be completely satiated without any harmful effects. As a matter of fact the mental and physical well being I get from eating these foods cannot be matched by eating plant foods. My point is, why not consistently eat the most nutrient dense, energy dense, and bioavailable food (meat/fat)?

Before agriculture came about, why is there any reason to believe that copious amounts of meat and fat weren't always available for human consumption? The Paleolithic Era was known for it's megafauna.

  In smelling 'other' foods, which ones do we have today that would have around 'back then'?   This is a point that has already been debated... but an apple, orange, grape... is  going to have a most different smell than it's counterpart thousands of years ago.   Today they are bred for color, taste, and smell...    And yes, there are some fruits like wild berries and figs that  are still pretty much intact as how they were.   But for any of us here, to go into even a very big organic store and expect to find fruits of original status, is next to impossible, unless you're GS in the tropics.   

[24isours]

I absolutely agree that too much animal protein is toxic. I've made myself sick a few times overdoing it. There hasn't been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb of protein. There are studies that show protein oxidizing at intakes (basically a nutrient overload) a little bit over 1g/lb of protein.

[Iguana]

I don't agree. I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day. The next day I'll have joint inflammation all over my body as well as fatigue which is most likely caused by the anti nutrients. Did you ever think it could be possible for the body to over ride such instincts of sensing these anti nutrients, etc, because of its desperate need for satiety?

Of course, it is possible to override our alimentary instinct. Hunger may lead us to eat things we wouldn’t eat otherwise and if we are limited or limit ourselves to a single foodstuff at a meal, we tend to eat too much of it. That said, I’ve eaten hundreds kilos of macadamias since 1987 and it never triggered the joints' inflammations you talk about.

None of these symptoms come about while on my ketogenic/carnivorous diet. I'll eat my meal and be completely satiated without any harmful effects. As a matter of fact the mental and physical well being I get from eating these foods cannot be matched by eating plant foods. My point is, why not consistently eat the most nutrient dense, energy dense, and bioavailable food (meat/fat)?

A also like to have an animal food almost everyday and feel more satisfied so, but I generally don’t feel fully satisfied with only and exclusively an animal food at a meal, except in the tropics where the climate is hot. But if you feel well so, then it’s fine. You asked questions. I tried to answer to the best of my (limited) knowledge. I can’t say more.

Before agriculture came about, why is there any reason to believe that copious amounts of meat and fat weren't always available for human consumption? The Paleolithic Era was known for it's megafauna.

Yes, but the anthropoids had to develop hunting tactics and weapons to be able to kill big animals without putting themselves in too much danger. Almost at that time, they mastered the fire too and probably started to grill meat. Most of us should therefore be more or less adapted to grilled meat, but this is rather doubtful. Likewise, it’s likely that we are not perfectly adapted to a long-lasting everyday consumption of mammals’ meat. It’s what experience shows.

We’ll see when some zero carbers have done it during a few decades. Once again, the troubles haven’t happened immediately, but after several years only.   

[TylerDurden]

I get a negative reaction to nuts, too. Not as harmful as joint inflammation and it is much less if I soak the nuts in water for 24 hourts beforehand to get rid of some of theantinutrients.

[24isours]

Yes, but the anthropoids had to develop hunting tactics and weapons to be able to kill big animals without putting themselves in too much danger.

Hence maybe one of the main reasons why we are still here and they are extinct?

Almost at that time, they mastered the fire too and probably started to grill meat. Most of us should therefore be more or less adapted to grilled meat, but this is rather doubtful.

Obviously we are not adapted to cooked meat. So this would make me think fire was mostly used for hunting advantage, protection, visibility and warmth.

Likewise, it’s likely that we are not perfectly adapted to a long-lasting everyday consumption of mammals’ meat. It’s what experience shows.

Stefansson lived 9 years on meat without any health problems. The Inuit lived their whole lives eating mammal's meat everyday.

We’ll see when some zero carbers have done it during a few decades. Once again, the troubles haven’t happened immediately, but after several years only.   

Yes, we will see.

[Hanna]

I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day.

Same here. I get pimples from that. However, I’m sure this is not because of the antinutrients, because I don’t get any pimples, for example, from soaked lentils, from peas, broccoli, cauliflower, walnuts or almonds, even if I eat great amounts of them. Did you have inflammations after eating any of these foods (raw, of course)? What about fruit?

There are studies that show protein oxidizing at intakes (basically a nutrient overload) a little bit over 1g/lb of protein.

You mean the protein oxidizes in the blood? What are the consequences of this oxidation of protein? Do you have a link to such a study?

[24isours]

You mean the protein oxidizes in the blood? What are the consequences of this oxidation of protein? Do you have a link to such a study?

I believe it oxidizes in the liver.

Oxidative stress has been known to cause a multitude of different diseases including cancer.

Check this out:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

Same here. I get pimples from that. However, I’m sure this is not because of the antinutrients, because I don’t get any pimples, for example, from soaked lentils, from peas, broccoli, cauliflower, walnuts or almonds, even if I eat great amounts of them. Did you have inflammations after eating any of these foods (raw, of course)?

I have eaten sprouted almonds and pumpkin seeds but still had negative reactions. The inflammation lessens for sure but is still there. My skin also tends to get really itchy when I eat nuts and seeds. I don't remember broccoli and cauliflower being much of a problem (then again it's been a while since I have eaten them) but I did decide to avoid them after reading up on goitrogens.

What about fruit?

Fruit is usually okay. If I eat too much I will get bloated though.

[Hanna]

How much protein do you eat a day? You eat zero carb, so your liver has to synthesize glucose from protein. Doesn’t that mean you have to eat quite a bit protein?

After incorporating more meat into my diet (specifically red meat) I started getting stronger. By this time, my diet probably consisted of seven different things: Chicken, beef, salad, quinoa, potatoes, seeds, and nuts. I was feeling pretty good other than having bouts of inflammation in my jaw and joints, and moderate fatigue. So I started researching again and ran into the Paleo Diet (and RPD). From there on I started eliminating grains, seeds and nuts completely due to the high content of anti nutrients.

My body has become stronger and fitter too since I have increased my intake of mammal meat. Currently, I eat meat about three oder four times a week. I’m physically stronger now than I have ever been in my life. However, fish is still the best doping for my brain. Moreover, I cannot imagine that meat could replace vegetables or watery fruits for me (maybe seafood could, for a while), although I guess that animal fats (including fatty fish and a lot of bone marrow) could replace my plant fats such as nuts.

[24isours]

How much protein do you eat a day? You eat zero carb, so your liver has to synthesize glucose from protein. Doesn’t that mean you have to eat quite a bit protein?

I eat about 110-120g of protein per day. I raised it recently because I've been working out more. Before I started working out harder I was at about 80-85g of protein per day. I could probably get through the day while being sedentary at 70g of protein. I've lowered my fat intake considerably as I was taking in too many calories. At one point I was eating around 270g of fat and 70g of protein while trying to go to the gym. Getting a good work out was hard until I figured out I needed more protein to repair my muscles. I slowly decreased my fat intake and upped my protein intake and right now my macronutrients are:

110-120g Protein
200g Fat
Around 2260 Calories

My body has become stronger and fitter too since I have increased my intake of mammal meat.

That is good to hear

However, fish is still the best doping for my brain. Moreover, I cannot imagine that meat could replace vegetables or watery fruits for me (maybe seafood could, for a while), although I guess that animal fats (including fatty fish and a lot of bone marrow) could replace my plant fats such as nuts.

Saturated fats are my preferred fuel. I don't do well on a lot of polyunsaturated fats for energy. I was ordering bone marrow for a while in the beginning of the diet but decided to switch over to beef or bison fat. Right now I don't have to worry about ordering extra fat as I am eating high fat ground beef mixed with organs.

[24isours]

Also, I eat all of this as one meal in the morning.

[PaleoPhil]

I personally would like to keep out of the VLC/ZC and higher carb debate. But in regards to resistant starch, I get very little resistant starch, if any at all.

My diet is a raw version of the specific carbohydrate diet, which strives to eliminate any and all indigestible carbohydrates (except for fiber, cellulose, etc.). I do pretty well on it. Therefore I get very little, maybe no resistant starch.

Along those lines, Norm Robillard had recommended in the past that everyone with Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) minimize RS, but after positive reports by some who say they have SIBO, and from lots of people in general, he has been taking another look at it, cautiously of course. He prudently suggested in a podcast interview that SIBO patients who are interested proceed with caution, starting with small amounts.

Theoretically RS could be a problem for SIBO patients, because SIBO is supposed to involve good bacteria getting into places where they don't belong, further up the intestines. I've been keeping my eyes open for negative reports of worsening SIBO and haven't seen any yet.

The two top negative reports I have seen have been for:

> excessive flatulence, usually ameliorated by reducing the amount of RS consumed to tolerance (like how people back down Magnesium dosage to avoid getting stools that are too loose)
> joint pain, usually remedied by switching to foods and/or therapeutics that are theoretically lower in the offending antigen (for example, some people reported joint pain from potato starch or potatoes that resolved when they switched to plantains and other foods or plantain flower, mung bean starch or tapioca flour)

And some other people toughed it out and the symptoms eventually went away, which they attributed to improved tolerance/adaptation or the end of a detox period. Of course, none of this can be proven and there is so much more to learn.

[Hanna]

Saturated fats are my preferred fuel. I don't do well on a lot of polyunsaturated fats for energy.

What happens to you if you eat too much bone marrow (I guess it contains a lot of polyunsaturated fats)?
Did you (your "instinct") like the bone marrow in spite of that?

[Hanna]

Sorry, I read that monounsaturated or saturated fat makes up the largest portion of bone marrow.

[Hanna]

And some other people toughed it out and the symptoms eventually went away, which they attributed to improved tolerance/adaptation or the end of a detox period. Of course, none of this can be proven and there is so much more to learn.

  Interesting!

[PaleoPhil]

Phil I'm still looking for you to show me where lots of people on vlc are being hurt??  You're certainly in the minority here on this forum, if your troubles are due to vlc.

Van, VLC includes cooked VLCers, but my guess is you'll only be interested in raw cases. Re: that, did you not see Inger's example of Brady?
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster/msg119014/#msg119014

Another example that was recently mentioned was GCB's wife, a case with which I think Iguana is familiar, IIRC.

Of course, there will be excuses made for every failure story or problem and attempts will be made to punch holes in every study, dig site find, population group example, and so on, and the debates will be endless, just as when any dietary doctrine is being defended, so everyone will need to do their own research and testing and decide for themselves. When it comes down to it, most people put much more weight on their own experience than that of others. Unfortunately, sometimes signs go unrecognized and symptoms missed or miss-attributed.

Maybe the info I share will help someone recognize a problem they had missed. If it helps even a few people, it will have been worth it. Already at least a couple of people have thanked me and many more have thanked Tatertot Tim, Richard Nikoley and others for sharing info on RS, the potential pitfalls of VLC, and related topics.

I'm less interested in debating folks at the moment than in providing some info on this emerging topic of resistant starch and its related threads (prebiotics, the Old Friends Hypothesis, mitochondria, metabolism, cellular respiration, ...); especially in my journal, which is more a place to put my experiments, results and thoughts than to debate. I provided some links that people can check out if they're interested in learning more. There are plenty of folks at some of those links who would be happy to debate you.

Anyone who knows my history knows I'm not coming at the topic from a background of being a high-carb zealot, like an 80-10-10er or something.

Besides, when a radically new dietary approach is proposed, such as a diet chronically very low in carbs (and resistant starch), the burden of proof lies on those proposing it. I looked for strong evidence of such myself and instead over time found much evidence to the contrary.

Yes, when you drink a water which mineral content is particularly well suited to your current needs, it tastes sweet.

Interesting, thanks Iguana.

[van]

I don't understand why you would use one person who for only eating vlc or zc for three to four months did poorly,, especially with little knowledge ( or maybe you have more facts about Brady?) of what he actually ate/did.   Again, there are many here doing more than fine eating vlc, myself included now for over 8 years.   Rosedale has treated diabetic patients for over 25 years with vlc.  I would suggest contacting him to verify your results/suspicions.     My guess is that there is value in RS, and, that you've something else going on within.   I have read where constipation has been a problem for you.  Peristalsis happens by at least two mechanisms;  one being the acidic level in one's colon which triggers peristalsis, and another is simply pressure put on the colon wall by feces themselves.   You may well need to up your acidic level with the inclusion of acidic forming foods/bacteria, hence RS foods,  to compensate for possibly a pressure sensing mechanism that is faulty in your colon.    I never have had a constipation problem, but I would tend to believe that that alone could cause brain fog as you describe. 
   I am interested in what you learn from all of this and from analysis done on your poop...   Too bad you couldn't  have done some before including the RS foods,,, maybe you'll want to go off them for a while for comparison study. 
   I use to buy directly from a culture scientist  who made bacterial cultures for companies all over the world.  One of which he received a patent for that literally helped solve South Korea's problem of stomach ulcers due to bad stomach bacteria.  They incorporated his bacterial strain into yogurts that are sold like candy out of vending machines throughout Korea.   He and I speculated as to whether it made sense to actually go to Africa and collect fece samples from the healthiest Masai tribesmen living as close to their natural ways.  Then isolate the strains of bacteria, and grow them to be sold as a probiotic here in the US.   I still think it had merit. 
    And I do think that the bacteria in the colon science is going to be the Big health possibility of the future.  Should be an interesting ride  for you. 

[Hanna]

I remember Miles:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/welcoming-commitee/zero-carber-here!/msg111415/#msg111415

Or Löwenherz:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/massive-health-problems-good-bye-raw-paleo!/

Cooked vegetables have been very helpful in reducing inflammation.

I remember more, but don’t remember their names anymore.

[Iguana]

Hence maybe one of the main reasons why we are still here and they are extinct?

Do you mean anthropoids are not our ancestors?

Obviously we are not adapted to cooked meat. So this would make me think fire was mostly used for hunting advantage, protection, visibility and warmth.

We don’t know if a totally satisfactory adaptation to cooked meat (and cooked food in general) is possible and, if possible, how long it would take. Therefore, even if some of our ancestors started grilling meat just after they controlled fire, 350.000 or even perhaps 450.000 years ago, it would not insure at all that we are reasonably adapted to grilled or cooked  meat. 

Stefansson lived 9 years on meat without any health problems. The Inuit lived their whole lives eating mammal's meat everyday.

Stefansson didn’t live 9 years exclusively on meat. His documented experiment lasted a year only and when living alongside Inuit, the quote below says “Inuit would often go 6 to 9 months a year eating nothing but meat and fish”, their overall diet being 90% meat (sea mammals) and fish, which is quite different of a 100% beef and bison diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmur_Stefansson#Low-carbohydrate_diet_of_meat_and_fish

Stefansson is also a figure of considerable interest in dietary circles, especially those with an interest in very low-carbohydrate diets. Stefansson documented the fact that the Inuit diet consisted of about 90% meat and fish; Inuit would often go 6 to 9 months a year eating nothing but meat and fish—essentially, a no-carbohydrate diet. He found that he and his fellow explorers of European descent were also perfectly healthy on such a diet. When medical authorities questioned him on this, he and a fellow explorer agreed to undertake a study under the auspices of the Journal of the American Medical Association to demonstrate that they could eat a 100% meat diet in a closely observed laboratory setting for the first several weeks, with paid observers for the rest of an entire year. Stefansson was compensated for his efforts by the American Meat Institute.[15] The results were published in the Journal, and both men were perfectly healthy on such a diet, without vitamin supplementation or anything else in their diet except meat and entrails.[16]

Yes, we will see.

I appreciate the fact that you’re willing to serve as guinea pig to the benefit of humanity. That’s courageous, really! I hope you will still keep us informed in the long run.

I eat about 110-120g of protein per day. I raised it recently because I've been working out more. Before I started working out harder I was at about 80-85g of protein per day. I could probably get through the day while being sedentary at 70g of protein. I've lowered my fat intake considerably as I was taking in too many calories. At one point I was eating around 270g of fat and 70g of protein while trying to go to the gym. Getting a good work out was hard until I figured out I needed more protein to repair my muscles. I slowly decreased my fat intake and upped my protein intake and right now my macronutrients are:

110-120g Protein
200g Fat
Around 2260 Calories

Saturated fats are my preferred fuel. I don't do well on a lot of polyunsaturated fats for energy. I was ordering bone marrow for a while in the beginning of the diet but decided to switch over to beef or bison fat. Right now I don't have to worry about ordering extra fat as I am eating high fat ground beef mixed with organs.

I find such counting and planning highly weird because I have absolutely no idea how much protein, fat and carbohydrates I've ever eaten in my life and I don’t care. I doubt our healthy  ancestors of a million years ago would know or care, either!

Cheers
François 

[24isours]

Do you mean anthropoids are not our ancestors?

No, I'm saying it is possible that one of the reasons for megafauna extinction was because we hunted them all.

Stefansson didn’t live 9 years exclusively on meat. His documented experiment lasted a year only and when living alongside Inuit, the quote below says “Inuit would often go 6 to 9 months a year eating nothing but meat and fish”, their overall diet being 90% meat (sea mammals) and fish, which is quite different of a 100% beef and bison diet.

Either way he still thrived on a majority of meat and fat for 9 years. I don't think the amount of berries he had eaten in the summer had anything to do with maintaining health. Aren't wild berries known to be low in sugars? One hundred grams of wild blueberries (alaska native) only contains about 10 grams of carbohydrate. I doubt he was eating much more than this which means he was still maintaining a ketogenic state. Also keep in mind the experiment at Bellevue Hospital when he had eaten nothing but meat for one whole year did not contain seafood. He was perfectly healthy at the end of the experiment.

The macronutrient make up of land mammal vs sea mammal meat is very different for sure. I try my best to incorporate any missing minerals and vitamins I would get from fish into my diet because of it. This is why I supplement Iodine year long and Vitamin D in the winter. The majority of difference comes from the high Omega 3 levels from a diet consisting of mostly seafood. So far I have not had any of the known symptoms of Omega 3 deficiency. In the future I may start trying to incorporate some more seafood if need be.

I appreciate the fact that you’re willing to serve as guinea pig to the benefit of humanity. That’s courageous, really! I hope you will still keep us informed in the long run.

I feel really good eating this way and will continue doing so until problems do arise. I will keep the forum informed in the long run for sure.

I find such counting and planning highly weird because I have absolutely no idea how much protein, fat and carbohydrates I've ever eaten in my life and I don’t care. I doubt our healthy  ancestors of a million years ago would know or care, either!

I only do this because I have to keep track of my body fat %. Counting calories helps me figure out how much of a caloric deficit I need to be in to lose body fat, how many calories needed to bring my weight back up to a certain level or maintain my current weight. And of course to stay in ketosis as I find it beneficial.

 

Cheers

[eveheart]

I find such counting and planning highly weird because I have absolutely no idea how much protein, fat and carbohydrates I've ever eaten in my life and I don’t care. I doubt our healthy  ancestors of a million years ago would know or care, either!

That's where I am doubtful about long-term ZC as a true paleolithic eating practice. With tasty, attractive, great-smelling plant foods covering much of the face of the earth, which paleolithic parents would have warned their paleolithic children, "Don't eat those berries, you've already had 100g when you ate that tuber. Here, chew on this fat instead. Yummy!" They knew that bees meant honey. They knew that certain clumps of weeds meant tasty tubers down below. I don't need research studies to know this - just look at your own children as they explore their world by taste!

To me, ZC is a style of biohacking (in the sense of managing one's own biology). It's one of the plausible ways of experimenting on yourself. Biohacking is less than 200 years old, if you date it back to Banting.

[van]

I agree, they probably ate anything that they found, and didn't think twice.  However, when food supply was plentiful, as in devouring a large beast, whether or not they labeled meat as protein and so on,  they would have discovered as we do here, that too much of one type of food would leave them feeling less than optimal.  But when starving I doubt that they cared.   We on the other hand mostly have full refrigerators and whether we count grams of food or not, we over time can discern as to what amounts of food enlivens us, or makes us feel dull and sluggish.  Too much fat, grams or not, and we've over eaten fat.  Too much sugar and for some who are sensitive, and we notice a sugar rush and ensuing crash.   Again, if we were living day to day foraging we would have little concern over overeating, and more concern with filling our stomachs.    But for myself, who experimented with simply eating by taste and smell etc. ,,  I find that using some discipline and not eating as much sugary foods as would be dictated by taste and smell has done me a world of good.  And the same is holding true with using discipline with not eating meat or proteins to satiety, but by cutting down on the 'number' of grams and instead using fat as fuel.     Again, early ancestors had little if any concept on longevity.  They lived meal to meal.  We on the other hand, especially informed by the internet and millions of other curious minds around the planet, can use information with experience to potentially go one step farther potentially towards living long healthy aware lives than those early ancestors eating meal to meal in the wild.    Too often we look to them for the answers.   Nature never intended them to live well into their nineties, but just long enough to procreate and pass along hunting and survival skills while living in communal groups. 

[van]

I don't know about Miles,, but Lowenherz had some very strange limiting  dietary practices that he BELIEVED to be true.     As in only (at least for some time) using coconuts as his fat source...   My experience with vlc or zc is that it takes some skill, as in especially  not overeating protein, finding multiple sources of animal and vegetable fat as a mainstay, finding good sources of traces minerals if not eating from the ocean, utilizing organs, including sources of Vit-c and some plants for additional minerals and possibly fibre.    I've utilized sea weeds and include occasional greens, radishes, garlic, leeks, lettuces...  and exercise daily.    There are more, obviously.    But rather than dismiss vlc or zc,  I think it would be more useful to investigate where those who  'failed' trying went wrong.  My guess is you look deep enough you'll find something.    And more recently Phil may be on to something with his looking to RS.  Because personally it seems that I've coincidently included those in my diet all along. 

[24isours]

Very well put, Van! Using protein for satiety and fuel over time would prove to be inefficient and our ancestors knew fat was preferred. I would think we would be much more adapted to high sugar intakes if carbohydrates were a main fuel source.