Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster

[eveheart]

http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/

Great links, Sorentus! Thanks for posting them.

Name just about any ailment plaguing humanity and you will find some researcher, somewhere, working the microbial angle for a causal or correlative connection.

What I take from this article is that everybody has a gut microbiome. Duh, right? But it bears saying that the gut balances itself to the foods being eaten. We don't need to focus on which diet is balanced correctly and which one is not. But if one is sick, the gut microbiome should not be overlooked.

The title of the article says a lot. I'm not a scientist, but knowing that my gut microbiome will adjust to my intake ratios, I think I can use some degree of poo-observation to gauge my own experiments. If my gut is well enough to start with, (and I'm sure it is), I should find a sweet spot of more-good-bacteria, less-bad bacteria with dietary balance alone, without resorting to fecal implants or other outside remedies.

[paper_clips43]

I have no gut issues at all... eating very little plant matter if any. But I do high meat... and all kind of bacteria rich foods like raw fish head smoothie... oysters... and I eat wild edibles when they grow, with dirt on... in summer own carrots with dirt from the yard.

the only reason I eat the carrots is because of the... dirt.

Any chance you could elaborate on your fish head smoothie? Which fish and what parts do you use?

[micelte]

Quote from Inger from an older thread:

I do fishhead-smoothie from fatty fishheads, raw. Just cut the head into pieces with a scissor and add water and blend until smooth in a mixer. Drink. Isn't too delicious but I hold my nose. You can add the guts too and liver and all. Very healthy.

I did a smoothie from prefrozen sardines yesterday but I think that was not good idea. I got the runs tonight/morning and cramping in my stomach. I guess the fatty fish might have gone a bit rancid? Cause they do - even if frozen. Tasted great to me but sardines do have strong and salty taste so it might have covered the rancidness? I ate the meat of the sardines pure and raw yesterday without anything and it tasted great to me? Strange. Or it was plain too much fat.. It is so long since I had such stomach distress, it almost never happends to me. Or it could have been the raw prefrozen scallops that I had too, yesterday? No idea. Anyways, I just ate a huge breakfast with elkmeat, sauerkraut and coconutoil and I am fine now.
I guess I will stay away from the sardines a while though.. It might be something added to prefrozen seafood, that I don't know of.. stay nothing on the package though. But who knows!

I would by whole mackerel always. Then you get the roe and fishmilk and liver and all! So good for you. I use to take the guts out the same day as I buy the fish and then they hold fine a few days in the fridge. I do smoothie from the heads and guts and from the file ts I do sashimi or tartar or anything delicious! I always eat them raw. Fatty fish I never cook, does not sit well in my stomach. But non fatty is fine gently cooked - for me at least.

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, here is something I came across today and I think you might enjoy. It talks about the effects on gut flora and more of doing VLC. It talks about why its good to get RS in the diet and give stuff to feed the bacterias.

http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach

and someone experimenting ZC and the effects on his gut flora. Although it follows paleo it's unlikely raw.

http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/

Yes, those are goodies. The Human Food Project is one thing I had in mind when I suggested to Lex that testing his gut microbiome would be interesting. They are asking for VLC Paleo dieters like Lex and Sabertooth to do the test, because they are particularly interested in what the results will be in such unusual cases.

I asked my healthcare provider about doing a gut microbiome test, but so far she hasn't shown interest and hers is the only medical group that is reported to do such a test in my area.

[sabertooth]

I've tried to post a comment at the bottom of the article, in order to get someones attention, but it says its pending moderation.

I also tried to post on the projects facebook page and it was taken down.

How would you go about contacting Jeff Leach to offer contributions to his research?

[Inger]

Any chance you could elaborate on your fish head smoothie? Which fish and what parts do you use?

haha... Michelte gave you the answer. Easy peasy, just cut off the fish heads, add in the roe or whatever organs you want, and run through a food processor with some water. Drink. Yuck. I always hold my nose. But makes me feel awesome!

Have had only one issue with raw fish as far as I remember, it is in the quote from Michelte. I survived just fine lol I bet my gut gets stronger every time. I even eat dead oysters without issues. Not the bad smelling ones tho. 

I need to make a fish head smoothie video! I will when I get to it, so busy lately with our construction business... holy moly I am not good at this work at all being a waitress my whole life, eh

[PaleoPhil]

Sabertooth, anyone can participate in Jeff Leach's American Gut Project by donating $99 to the nonprofit to cover costs and following the instructions at http://humanfoodproject.com/americangut

Jeff has repeatedly said that he is especially interested in the participation of people on unusual diets like Paleo, VLC, and such, because not a lot of people follow these approaches, so it's hard to get a big enough sample to make for a statistically significant dataset, and they would also be an interesting contrast to the more common dietary approaches and might reveal some interesting results.

By doing so, VLCers can also put their money where their mouth is and put their claims about the healthiness of chronic VLC to the test. Test results are more likely to persuade others than claims, theories and opinions.

I may do it myself, because I so far haven't been able to interest my healthcare provider in prescribing a gut microbiome test.

[sabertooth]

Cool,

If I can get enough money on my tax return, I will participate.

 My girlfriend may sign up too. She is higher carb eating and more vegetarian, so it would be interesting to know the differences in our gut microbes.

[Sorentus]

I'm happy to see the interests in gut microbe's composition. I would surely participate in it if my funds would allow it, I am very curious in my microbiota composition. I will be getting FMT and will report in my journal if it has made any significant change in my digestion.

[van]

I'm all for it... I do think 'they' may not have the answer as to what the ideal gut balance is, yet..  Including different floras for different diets and different folks, and different regions.  Human nature will sure provoke early 'answers' but I bet you a nickel, in ten years there will be different answers.   This isn't to say that they will probably alert some who have less than 'healthy' bacteria. 

[PaleoPhil]

Yup, that's why they're doing the research, and they are also checking the gut bacteria of some Hadza people:

our work with the Hadzabe hunter-gatherers in Tanzania will allow us to compare our western selves to people who still hunt and gather the majority of their food, have limited access to western medications, are all born naturally and breastfed for 2+ years, live outside more or less 24/7, are covered in microbial-laden soil (natures blanket), and that have an intimate connection to a vast (natural) microbial world that we in the so-called developed world have moved away from. We don’t know what we will learn over the coming years, but it’s a given we will be a little smarter when it comes to modulating and nudging our gut microbes in a healthier direction with diet and lifestyle choices (I sure hate to see Big Pharma drug our microbiome into compliance – lets not let it happen folks!). http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/

[van]

I wish they'd have a more varied control group than just the Hazda's,,  and yes, I know that original people's are hard to find.  But fish eating cultures, cultures who focus on vegetables, Mongolians who include milk....   Would give a broader knowledge base on what might be healthy bacteria profiles. 

[PaleoPhil]

They already have examined many traditional and semi-traditional groups (and modern populations) in various parts of the world and are seeking to continue to expand the survey, and Jeff talked some about this in the sentence right before the excerpt I quoted:

In addition to a large sample of westerners, we will also able to compare these tens of thousands of samples to other data sets – including groups from Africa, India, South America, and so on.

The Hadza just happen to be the population they could find and access that is living closest to the hunter-gatherer past of humans. They were actually a recent addition to the survey, after Jeff pointed out that the Hadza were living more like HGs than most of the populations they had sampled, so that they would be an interesting addition.

They have also begged for people like you, Van, to provide their samples. It's a chance for you to provide evidence to support the efficacy of your diet. While the human gut microbiome is not fully understood, like you mentioned, and it's not clear what is optimal, there is apparently enough known to get some rough sense of whose gut is rather messed up (such as high levels of pathogenic bacteria or extremely low levels of all bacteria).

Jeff even welcomes people to make suggestions in the comments on his blog about what diets he should test himself, though he doesn't have time to test everything, of course.

[van]

good,  I'll have to take the time and read through it,, have it bookmarked.    I think he really needs some of the samples from zero carb group,, those who have 'starved their microbes'.   I still eat seaweed ( which I wonder about it's content of RS, certainly doesn't digest in the stomach), some pieces of kale,  meyer lemons, occasional nuts in the shell, pumpkin seeds fairly regularly, sunchokes, garlic routinely, small amounts of honey, coconut, occasional avocado,  but probably low enough in carbs where I never really get out of ketosis.   I'll still look for the evidence that we need all these friendly bacteria.   Obviously if we didn't eat nutrient rich foods, we would  then depend on the bacteria to produce or excrete their by products for us to feed on.     Let's see what he learns.    One interesting finding might be;   when we are breast fed, Bifidus bacteria predominate.  They are milk sugar feeding bacteria.  As we grow into adults, those bifidus bacteria switch over to other bacteria that don't require lactose.  Now then, with tribes that don't eat enough carbs, RS or not, to support those carb eating bacteria,  what's there in their place.  What's in a lion's gut, or tiger's or shark or whale, or wolves'.    They don't seem to perish without eating RS.     Like I said, it's a new frontier.    Another guess is that future products on the market shelfs will include genetically modified bacteria that will be purported to do it all.  One's that will gobble up all the crap, like chocolate cake and fake ice cream and turn it into healthy byproducts.  Hell, soon we'll be selling our crap to developing third would countries. 

[eveheart]

... I think he really needs some of the samples from zero carb group,, those who have 'starved their microbes'.

LOL! I've read lots on the humanfoodproject.com, and I find that their gut microbiome work is particularly unbiased. Great care is taken to avoid foregone conclusions at the research level. My take-away is that everyone has gut bacteria - so no starved microbes! - and profiles vary according to food profiles. There is no bragging, "My microbes are better than your microbes, nyah, nyah, nyah!" There is no sensationalism there, which I find refreshing in this day and age.

[sabertooth]

A real point of interest should be in the composition of microbes in the gut of a zero carber. The carnivorous gut must be full of flesh eating bacteria, while void of plant fermentation varieties. They may also discover that supposedly harmful strains of bacteria can live in harmony in the guts of these extreme dieters. People who have been consuming highmeat for years, are capable of harboring gut flora which would make the average person extremely ill.

[Hanna]

Phil, why this emphasis on resistant starch? Why don't you (and others) put the same emphasis on prebiotics in general, such as inulin? Is there something special about RS?

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, why this emphasis on resistant starch? Why don't you (and others) put the same emphasis on prebiotics in general, such as inulin? Is there something special about RS?

It's a reflection of peoples' current biases. For some reason, people don't tend to have a problem with eating foods that contain other prebiotics like inulin, but resist (pun intended  ) eating those that contain resistant starch. The word "starch" seems to have been demonized, so that it is apparently a turn-off for many. It's not a matter of inulin versus resistant starch, it's a matter of consuming both (and certainly not neither, as with ZC). Since many raw Paleoists are already familiar with inulin and probably consume decent amounts of it, that is less of a concern then the paucity of RS consumption and the lack of understanding about it, though I do also talk about inulin-rich foods like jicama and use the term "prebiotics" often to stress the importance of getting a variety of them.

As a matter of fact, Jicama is one of my favorite foods. I found that the key with jicama is to buy the smallest ones, as they are the tastiest. Since I like to consume a variety of prebiotics, I even created a raw salad in which I combine jicama with other prebiotic foods, and it's yummy.

People tend to be already more familiar with inulin, because there is marketing of products that contain it, such as Fiber Choice, Citrucel, Benefibre, etc. There is not nearly as much marketing of resistant starch, and it also has that demonized word "starch" in it, so until recently most people (including me) have been less familiar with it and less curious about it. Can you name a single marketed fiber tablet or powder that is advertised as a resistant starch fiber supplement? Even though Bob's Red Mill has a potato starch product, they don't yet market it as a fiber supplement.

Interestingly, I read about a study that found that inulin was actually the least beneficial prebiotic that they tested (which was surprising to me), with RS and others found to be more beneficial, so the marketing hype seems to be out of proportion with reality (I don't have the study at hand, sorry).

I was already eating plenty of inulin at the time I tried RS, and I benefited nonetheless. It doesn't make sense to assume that eating just inulin will cover all bases.

Given that resistant starch and other prebiotics are highest in raw foods, why aren't rawists embracing them as an indication that our ancestors ate and benefited from these raw foods and using them as an argument for eating more raw?

Some of the more open minded VLCers have experimented with RS and reported benefits. The latest one is Tom Naughton, maker of the Fathead movie (I posted about it here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649/msg119953/#msg119953). He was skeptical of resistant starch first, and even wrote a blog article poo-pooing it (oops, pun not intended that time  ) years ago based on one bad study, but then an ex-VLCer tipped him off about better research on it that he read and was impressed. He reported his success on Jimmy Moore's  most recent Low Carb Conversations podcast. On the same podcast, famous committed VLCer and ketogenic dieter Jimmy Moore even announced that he's going to do an n=1 experiment with RS.

Lots of Primal Blueprint dieters were negative about resistant starch until Mark Sisson wrote a positive article about it, after having earlier been dismissive of it. Now a fair number of people at his forum are experimenting with it and reporting benefits. It seems that a lot of people need to see their favorite gurus give the OK to something before they'll try it. So if Jimmy's experiment is successful, we may see another wave of experimenters.

I was also a VLCer (albeit a de facto one) and skeptic when I first heard about RS. You can read my skeptical early comments about it at this very forum. Doesn't that say something about RS, when even the skeptics are changing their minds about it after trying it or reading the research?

So the question isn't why would a growing number of people who have tried RS-rich foods and benefited emphasize RS, it's why are so many of the rest still belittling it before trying it?

[Hanna]

People tend to be already more familiar with inulin, because there is marketing of products that contain it, such as Fiber Choice, Citrucel, Benefibre, etc. (...)
Interestingly, I read about a study that found that inulin was actually the least beneficial prebiotic that they tested (which was surprising to me), with RS and others found to be more beneficial, so the marketing hype seems to be out of proportion with reality (I don't have the study at hand, sorry).

I was already eating plenty of inulin at the time I tried RS, and I benefited nonetheless.

Now I understand.
According to the following article, combinations of carbohydrates "may have synergistic effects on the SCFA pattern and may also shift the site of fermentation“ and therefore be more effective than the supplementation of single sources of indigestible carbs. Therefore, eating whole vegetables such as Belgian endive or a broad range of vegetables could be much more effective than, for example, inulin supplements.

Most studies have been performed on substrates tested as single sources of indigestible carbohydrates, which is not representative of a human diet that contains a complex mixture of carbohydrates. The combination of different indigestible carbohydrates may influence the fermentation pattern, and a mixture of pectin and guar gum gave a higher proportion of butyric acid in the caecum of rats (15%) compared to the individual substrates (10 and 6%, respectively) (Henningsson A,Bjorck I, Nyman M, unpublished results). Further, the site for SCFA generation in the colon is likely to be dependent on how rapidly fermented the carbohydrate is. Interestingly, it has been demonstrated that the fermentation of easily fermentable high-amylose maize starch could be shifted to the distal colon of rats, when fed in mixture with a slowly fermentable dietary fibre, e.g. psyllium (61). This is an interesting observation since it provides a dietary tool to increase butyric acid formation in the distal colon where most colonic cancers appear in humans.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=short-chain%20fatty%20acid%20formation%20at%20fermentation%20of%20indigestible%20carbohydrates%20by%20ifsa%20henningsson%2C%20inger%20bjiirck%20and%20margareta%20nyman&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foodandnutritionresearch.net%2Findex.php%2Ffnr%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1801%2F1708&ei=27J3T9z7Oeb50gGsyaTTDQ&usg=AFQjCNHPQ2xu4rVbuYSDdDAYQbkngcCrIg&cad=rja

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, thank goodness some people are getting it. It is a health nightmare that more and more people are deciding that this or that ancient food is "unnecessary" or even poisonous, especially in light of the development of supergerms. Even if we do not need them, our gut bacteria do. The people warning about this don't need to prove it, people have never tried going without these foods. The people claiming we are better off without them need to prove it. If they don't stop spreading the lies, the deaths will be on their conscience.

If you read up on the Old Friends Hypothesis and think about it all, it should become still more clear.

Belgine endive is a good example. I tried it and it had an unusual mild bitterness that I liked. I'm trying to eat a wider variety of prebiotic foods. As a scientist, Jeff Leach can't tell people what to do, but pay attention to what he eats. Tatertot Tim and Richard aren't scientists so they are telling people. They may be getting some things wrong for all we know, but the people who try their suggestions are mostly reporting dramatic benefits.

[TylerDurden]

Judging from the data re wikipedia etc., resistant starch is most easily obtained from cooked foods, not raw ones. When resistant starch is indeed present in a raw food, most of the time that very raw food is high in antinutrients and therefore highly unlikely to have been eaten in palaeo times, and should not be eaten at all, therefore,  in accordance with palaeo guidelines.

[Iguana]

Tyler, we spoke a few times about chufas, which contains a lot of RS, grow also wild and are very tasty for most people. Thus we can assume that at least these chufas were sometimes eaten in paleo times.

Phil asked me (in some other thread) what RS containing plants are in the instincto food range. I had a look at the Wikipedia page and there's a short list of RS containing foods. In it there are several foods sometimes eaten by instinctos: green peas, slightly green bananas (preferably plantains) and — soaked and in occasional small amounts — lentils, oats, barley. 3 days ago I found a few wild grains and I tested it as promised to you. You said no point, but anyway the experiment was done; it tasted fine, like oats, but there wasn’t much to eat in each and it would take a whole day to only slightly fed oneself.

It may not be in accordance with usual paleo guidelines, but the facts are there that these grains eaten once in while in limited amount did not cause any troubles on experimental animals and on humans, contrary to wheat.

[TylerDurden]

Rubbish.

Don't bother mentioning chufas again, as they contain plentiful amounts of antinutrients/phytosterols.

Any genuine Instincto in palaeo times would have avoided unripe bananas and gone in for ripe yellow ones instead, for obvious reasons re taste. Plantains, huh? One of the most tasteless plant foods  I have ever eaten.

Soaking in water is a form of processing.  This would not have occurred until the Neolithic era  for obvious reasons, since food preparation in palaeo times would have consisted of no more than hiding food under a rock to let it decompose. Letting foods decompose is about the only natural form of processing  there is.

One anyway only has to look at the types of resistant starch mentioned on Wikipedia to see how incredibly unnatural they are:-

"RS1 Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains
RS2 Resistant starch that occurs in its natural granular form, such as uncooked potato, green banana flour and high amylose corn
RS3 Resistant starch that is formed when starch-containing foods are cooked and cooled such as in legumes,[2] bread, cornflakes and cooked-and-chilled potatoes, pasta salad or sushi rice. Occurs due to retrogradation, which refers to the collective processes of dissolved starch becoming less soluble after being heated and dissolved in water and then cooled.
RS4 Starches that have been chemically modified to resist digestion. This type of resistant starches can have a wide variety of structures and are not found in nature."

The bottom line is, sure, we can always do things to make a food "less worse"/"less unhealthy" but these processes cannot turn that food into a healthy one.

[LePatron7]

Rubbish.

If I had a nickel.. Lol TD do you notice that a lot of times when someone mentions something you disagree with it's always "rubbish," "that's absurd," or some other remark expressing how much you disagree?

[van]

I agree,,  a little bit like the boy who called wolf...