GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health

[Iguana]

You’re welcome.

Yes, Van  misuses the word "addiction".

There’s of course also a limit to the amount of sweet foods one can eat, and this amount shrinks over time after an initial instinctive raw paleo period in which we kind of “fill up the tank”. In my first months of instincto, I ate up to 80 dates in a meal. The number of dates I can eat in a meal progressively dropped to the point that 20-25 is now a maximum. It wouldn’t shrink in this way if it were an addiction.

The same finally happened to me with figs. During 26 years, I ate figs in great quantities until my stomach was completely full up. Last summer, I bought figs at the farmer’s market because they were not yet ripe on my trees. But in the end, the ones I bought were mostly left untouched in my fridge until they were rotten. Then… the figs on my trees got ripe, but I could barely eat them.

Now it’s the cherimoyas season here, they are very cheap and I ate a lot of them, up to 5 or 6 per day. Currently I’m down to no more than 2 per day: they became too sweet to eat more than that. 

Van, you saw a lot of people at the instincto center of Montramé gorging on tropical sweet fruits.  I already told you that meals there were at a fixed price, whatever you ate. Most of these persons were more or less new to this raw paleo nutrition and / or they took the opportunity to fill up with expensive foods they could not afford everyday at home.

[van]

Go to slaughter houses and procure fat as you do?

You must be kidding! Almost all the livestock in Europe is not only fed hot dried grains, but industrial animal feed and other shit. Moreover, all kinds of toxic  compounds accumulate in animal fat. There’s also a limit to the amount of fat one can digest, plus I never saw more than very little fat in a wild animal — except in wild boars feeding on corn fields.

  maybe the us is the only country that is into grass fed....  but it seems plausible that farmers in the country that owned land would naturally feed only grass out of cost considerations.    The ability to use fat as fuel really only happens when you convert from being a sugar burner to a fat burner.  Something that many many have experienced.  Speculation will only serve so far.    Don't know about your wild animals.   Here we have elk.  Inger talks about fat she finds,, maybe it's different when you go north?

[Iguana]

Isn’t the vast majority of US meat at least grain finished? Can you be sure they never mix up the grass fed meat with the common grain and garbage fed meat at the slaughterhouse? In France, it sometimes happens at the butcher. AFAIK, the countries  where cattle is  most grass fed are Uruguay and New Zealand. Certainly that animals living in cold countries have more fat. Usually there’s a bit a fat in wild animals in autumn as they store it for use during winter when food is scarce.

Here in Portugal I haven’t yet found a source of suitable meat. I brought from 1300 km away in France the donkey meat I have now in my fridges. This donkey was born wild in an  immense park and I was told he never received any food from humans, but I’m not even 100% sure about that. It’s not easy at all, you see. 

“Convert from being a sugar burner to a fat burner”… you speak as if we were simple thermal engines which can be converted from coal to fuel oil or from gasoline to ethanol burning! The question is rather: what is the food range to which we are best adapted? If, as it is doubtlessly the case, we are best adapted to an omnivorous wide food range, it would be mistaken and extremely restricting health-wise, survival-ability-wise and travel-wise to consume exclusively carbs or exclusively fat. 

[micelte]

This thread is very interesting. Thanks all for the comments. I'd like to emphasize a point that I think has not been given as much importance as it should have: physical activity. I strongly believe that when this parameter is missing in ones life, one cannot actually be instincto. As simple as that. The instinct won't work, at least perfectly, when one does not use his or her body as it should be used. Don't use it = Lose it. A truth that we should all be accepting. Add to this the fact that lots of people spend so many hours sitting down in front of a screen all day, and you have the best recipe for a total health collapse. As a conclusion, if you want to be sure you are picking and eating the right food, and then that you are feeling the stop for it, make sure you have created an energy need before your meals.

[TylerDurden]

The US has a big grassfed meat movement so while a majority of meat is grainfed, grassfed meat is way easier to get hold of in the US than most other places.

[Inger]

It is not hard to find grassfed beef and fat  in Europe. At least it was not for me..... I even get some here in Finland, finally. But that was harder lol We also have own 100% grass fed/hay fed sheep that we kill ourselves with lots of fat on them.
Also, fatty fish is not hard to get if you live close to water... (I believe our ancestors did this, they clearly choose to live close to water)

I wonder how GCB was not observant enough to change up his WOE/way of living before he got tumors. As the scientist he is you would think he observed himself pretty closely, especially as an instincto. I wonder about this.

F.ex. I soon can see it on my skin, eyes, hair, teeth, moods, energy, sleep... etc. if I did it right or wrong. Before any illness or more serious stuff like having to use surgery. And when I see things move in the wrong direction I change what I do. At least for me it has worked great to do like this for the last half part of my life... I let my body tell, in addition I do research for sure. And I let the nature guide me. It is very wise. I also do blood works, to not fool myself. I wonder if GCB do regular blood works too? Those often tells you things are going in the wrong direction even before you realize it.

I really think to eat much sugar is dangerous together with computer work or living in a city in today's world. We should stop thinking we are apes and start thinking evolutionary/scientifically how the world has changed and what are our needs as human today, we have a totally different brain and gut than apes.. and apes are living a totally different life than we. Using no technology, no clothes... etc. I get tired to hear those arguments, we are primates and we need to eat like them. Very stupid argument IMO. I guess we hear it from people that wants to justify their sugar addiction.

[Inger]

it is kind of disappointing that the one who started the whole instincto movement have not been able to cure/have his tumors disappear without surgery, seriously.
Because the instincto therapy is learning if you do it exactly right your body will heal itself. But why didn't it? And I mean... the instinctos have been very religious about using no supplements or ingesting even the smallest molecule that has been cooked - they even take care the animals they eat have not touched cooked foods. So very very strict.

IDK it all makes me pretty puzzled. Or actually I do think it comes down to the sugar in the end.

Addicting stuff.

[JeuneKoq]

Micelte is right. After all physical work was the only way our ancestors could get the food they needed.  I've just finished reading a very interesting book called "Born to Run" and it deals, among other subjects, with the hunting method of persistent running.  According to the book people had to actually run a marathon to get red meat on their plate!

[24isours]

This thread is very interesting. Thanks all for the comments. I'd like to emphasize a point that I think has not been given as much importance as it should have: physical activity. I strongly believe that when this parameter is missing in ones life, one cannot actually be instincto. As simple as that. The instinct won't work, at least perfectly, when one does not use his or her body as it should be used. Don't use it = Lose it. A truth that we should all be accepting. Add to this the fact that lots of people spend so many hours sitting down in front of a screen all day, and you have the best recipe for a total health collapse. As a conclusion, if you want to be sure you are picking and eating the right food, and then that you are feeling the stop for it, make sure you have created an energy need before your meals.

Great point. The craving for something sweet can be diminished by exercising due to the similar chemicals released in the body after consumption of carbohydrates and a good workout.

[Iguana]

Thanks Micelte, TD, Inger, JeuneKoq and 24isours for your inputs.

Inger, didn't you read my above post http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/gcb-eating-meat-is-harmful/msg119784/#msg119784 explaining why eating sweets fruits such as dates, figs and cherimoyas can in no way be an addiction?

Well, I spoke with GCB. As he feels well, he didn't have any blood test done since a long time, but he'll have one done soon for his 50 years of instincto. He's exasperated by the article linked above, which as you suspected, Inger, was written by a vegan who completely distorted and exaggerated  what he said. So, he wrote a comprehensive answer that is currently published in German on their website. I put it on Google translate and tried to roughly correct it helped by my very basic understanding of German, which took me about 2 hours work. Gosh, I gotta go for a good run now!

I think Inger’s questions are answered in it. So, here is my approximate translation.

Raw food, veganism and raw meat: a hot topic!

First, one has to ask to relax a bit about the problem of animal proteins and have an objective mind. No one may claim that he would have a final truth. This is presupposing usually a sign that something is not quite clear in his own opinion . Otherwise you would always be willing to put their own opinions into question.

As far as the article mentioned, some misconceptions have arisen . As a researcher, I would not just say " too much raw meat is harmful for health ," but " too much raw meat could be harmful to health" . Each natural molecule can act as either beneficial or harmful , that depends on the circumstances, the amount, duration, etc. A rigid principle is not part of a scientific approach and reality. In the field of health, beliefs, fashion and ideologies have rather fatal consequences.

It seems to me that many do not properly understand what " the Instincto " in itself really means. It is just not a fixed ideology, diet or philosophy that imposes somthing or the other . It is much more an experiment whose goal is to answer this question: what, how, and exactly how much the person should eat in order to enjoy the best possible health condition? It would be a misconception to think that eliminating this or that class of food is the final solution. The needs, intolerances, deficiencies and overloads vary from one organism to another and these requirements change over time.

Dietetics tries to draw interesting answers from science. Because of this variability and the infinite complexity of the biological mechanisms, the scientific method is unable to formulate purely provisional and general statements . Ideologies are more dangerous because they are not usually willing to consider criticism or failures into account. That's why I was looking for a different approach: extract the answers from the organism, and to consider always the results objectively.

This I have done in the field of animal proteins exactly as in all other areas . Our genetics is very close to the genetics of primates, especially the chimpanzee and bonobos. These occasionally hunt and eat meat of lemurs, wild boars, birds and insects. So one must ask the question: is meat, or more generally animal proteins part of the food range of people? Since Wissenchaft and ideologies are mostly in this regard widersprüchig, you have no other solution than to reason and experiment.

For the past 50 years, I have put together all the observations that I could make on thousands of people, and conclusions were drawn. In the early years it became clear that without animal foods, especially during pregnancy, while breastfeeding and growth, the human organism encounters significant difficulties. The growth mechanisms (skeleton, muscle , weight), the development of the nervous system (brain, reflexes ), and later the cellular renewal (Vernarbungsfähigkeit, rest, and probably life) are obviously affected .. When year after year, first fish, then eggs and later meat were reintroduced into the Instincto assortment, I observed many ill practitioners who unexpectedly healed. Malignant tumors, autoimmune diseases, malformations, etc. were after a short time like washed away. About vegans with catastrophic weight problems I could see amazing weight increases. I myself was only able to compensate with animal foods the weight loss which resulted from my cancer.

So I had no longer any reason to look at meat or other animal products as cursed temptation objects. Its was only after twenty years that small signs appeared, which were indicating to consider the problem again  when one or the other slightly dry skin, cracks, wrinkles, nail miss stature, as if something was not quite right. Since such procedures can jeopardize the health, I decided with my wife to make the experiment ourselves to allowed to eat as much meat as the instinct allows. This is of course not the normal instincto practice, which advises the contrary: never without checking  first our sensory attraction to all the foods on the table.

First observation: arthritis apeared, I could not brush my hair with my right hand, my shoulder hurt when I raised my arm above the horizontal. Worse, a tumor appeared on my left knee , which I had surgically removed before. However, the tumor grew back immediately, so I was forced to interrupt my forced meat gluttony. After eight months of veganism the second tumor had completely disappeared, as well as the arthritis and other small troubles.

But at that time a hernia appeared, the doctors and orthopedist declared it irreversible could only be healed with surgery. That was obviously a sign of animal protein’s lack. I tried once , to replace the usual domestic animals proteins  by game meat (wild boar, chamois) and wild animals products because of the taste and the instinctive barrier of meat etc. of wild animals is much stronger and male us better aware against overloading . After only six months, the hernia was perfectly and finally disappeared and no other negative signs appeared. This was a clear proof to me that our organism is in danger by an excessive meat consumption, but on the other hand, a certain amount of animal products is still required.

Many around me did not want to accept my opinion, especially my wife, who was convinced that the instinct would protect us against difficulties, as was the case in many patients. Unfortunately this did not work with the usual meat (farmed animals, much milder taste) and caused her cancer and death. She admitted the exaggerated consumption of meat was the cause three weeks before her end, but it was too late (also the hard chemotherapy in the last months, the bronchi completely choked-up, so that breathing was impossible were the cause of her dead) . So I immediately made it known to all instinctos, so no one would get similar problems. So it's a huge exaggeration to to say that I "led a huge crowd of people astray" would . On the contrary, my wife and myself took the risk of experimenting ourselves in order to clarify the matter and finally to prevent troubles to others.

With wild meat I have no evidence that it could possibly be harmful. I have noted only successes, but perhaps after a further 50 years of instinctive practice something else will arrive. It is quite clear that our food range is not exactly the same of what our ancestors had . All primates consume insects daily. Many human ethnies also. It could be postulated that insects are needed for a perfect dietary balance .

As a precaution I have therefore in sight to put a new phase of the investigation in motion . Last year I already had all season bee larvae as an exclusive animal product, with very amazing results. I have the opportunity to set up a new center in southern Spain soon. In this climate, bees can develop almost all year round and this without artificial feeding. Mulberry trees grow very fast and the caterpillar of the silk moth is easy to breed. So we will also produce silk fabrics, not just nutrients...

I think our duty is not to lock ourselves or others into a closed system and to declare any deviating attempt "mind-boggling" . But it is important to know what is the right diet for us humans, so that everyone has the freedom to take the best path to health and wellbeing.

GCB

[Iguana]

And here is the original for our German speaking members and readers.

Rohkost, Veganismus und rohes Fleisch: ein heisses Thema!

Zuerst muss man die Geister ein bisschen entspannen um das Problem der tierischen Proteine ganz objektiv anzusprechen. Niemand darf behaupten, er hätte eine endgültige Wahrheit. Dies vorauszusetzen ist meistens das Zeichen, dass etwas in der eigenen Stellungnahme nicht ganz klar ist. Sonst wäre man stets bereit, die eigene Meinung in Frage zu stellen.

Was den erwähnten Artikel betrifft, sind einige Missverständnisse entstanden. Als Forscher würde ich nicht einfach sagen „Auch Rohfleisch ist für die Gesundheit schädlich“, sondern „Auch Rohfleisch könnte für die Gesundheit schädlich sein“. Jedes natürliches Molekül kann entweder nützlich oder schädlich wirken, das hängt von den Umständen, den Mengen, der Dauer etc. ab. Ein rigides Prinzip ist nicht Teil einer wissenschaftlichen Annäherung and die Wirklichkeit. Auf dem Gebiet der Gesundheit hatten Glauben, Mode und Ideologien schon genügend fatale Folgen.

Mir scheint es, dass viele nicht richtig verstehen, was „die Instinkto“ an sich wirklich bedeutet. Sie ist eben keine feststehende Ideologie, Diät oder Philosophie, die man sich oder den anderen aufzwingt. Es handelt sich viel mehr um ein Experiment, dessen Ziel es ist, diese Frage zu beantworten: Was, wie, und wieviel genau sollte der Mensch essen, um den bestmöglichen Gesundheitzustand zu genießen? Es wäre ein Irrglaube zu denken diese oder jene Klasse von Nahrungsmittel zu beseitigen sei die endgültige Lösung. Die Bedürfnisse, die Intoleranzen, die Mängel und Überlastungen sind von einem Organismus zum anderen unterschiedlich und verändern sich dazu im Laufe der Zeit.
Die Diätetik versucht treffende Antworten von der Wissenschaft zu ziehen. Wegen dieser Variabilität und der unendlichen Komplexität der biologischen Mechanismen kann die wissenschaftliche Vorgehensweise leider lediglich provisorische und allgemeine Aussagen formulieren. Ideologien sind noch gefährlicher, da diese meistens nicht bereit sind, Kritik oder Misserfolge in Betracht zu ziehen. Deswegen habe ich einen anderen Weg gesucht: die Antworten aus dem Organismus herauszuholen, und stets die Resultate objektiv zu betrachten.
Dies habe ich auf dem Gebiet der tierischen Proteine genau so gemacht, wie auf allen anderen Gebieten. Unsere Genetik ist sehr nah der Genetik der Primaten, vor allem der Chimpanzen und Bonobos. Diese jagen gelegentlich und verzehren dann Fleisch von Halbaffen, Wildschweinen, Vögeln und Insekten. So darf man sich die Frage stellen: ist Fleisch, oder allgemeiner gesagt tierisches Eiweiß teil der Nahrungspalette des Menschen? Da Wissenchaft und Ideologien diesbezüglich meistens widersprüchig sind, hat man keine andere Lösung, als selbst zu folgern und zu experimentieren.
Seit nunmehr fünfzig Jahren habe ich sämtliche Beobachtungen, die ich an tausenden Menschen machen konnte, zusammentgetragen, und Schlussfolgerungen gezogen. In den ersten Jahren wurde es klar, dass der menschliche Organismus ohne tierische Lebensmittel besonders in der Schwangerschaft, während des Stillens und im Wachstum auf große Schwierigkeiten stößt. Die Wachstumsmechanismen (Skelett, Muskel, Gewicht), die Entwicklung des Nervensystems (Gehirn, Reflexe), und später die zellulare Erneuerung (Vernarbungsfähigkeit, Erholung, und wahrscheinlich Lebensdauer) sind offensichtlich beeinträchtigt.. Als ich Jahr für Jahr zuerst Fisch, dann Eier und später Fleisch in die Instinktopalette wiedereinführte musste ich bei vielen PraktikantenKra nken unerwartete Heilungen feststellen. Bösartige Tumoren, Autoimmunerkrankheiten, Fehlbildungen, usw. waren nach kurzer Zeit wie weggespült. An Veganern etwa mit katastrophalen Gewichtsproblemen konnte ich erstaunliche Gewichtszunahmen feststellen. Ich selbst konnte erst mit tierischen Lebensmitteln den Gewichtsverlust kompensieren, der mit meinem Krebs entstanden war.
So hatte ich keinen Grund mehr, Fleisch oder andere tierische Produkte als verfluchte Versuchungsobjekte zu betrachten. Erst nach zwanzig Jahren entstanden kleine Zeichen, welche die Problematik nochmals überbedenken ließen. Beim einen oder anderen etwas trockene Haut, Risse, Falten, Nagelmisswuchs, als ob etwas doch nicht ganz in Ordnung sei. Da solche Verfahren die Gesundheit gefahrden können, entschloss ich mit meiner Frau, das Experiment selbst zu machen, soviel Fleisch wie der Instinkt erlaubt zu verzehren. Das ist natürlich nicht die normale Instinktopraxis, die im Gegenteil lehrt, niemals ohne sensorielle Anziehung irgendein Nahrungsmittel zu sich zu nehmen.
Erste Feststellung: Arthritis, ich konnte mein Haar nicht mehr mit der rechten Hand bürsten, die Schulter schmerzte sobald ich den Arm über die Horizontale hob. Schlimmer noch: ein Tumor erschien am linken Knie, das ich zuvor operieren ließ. Der Tumor wuchs aber sofort wieder, sodass ich mich gezwungen sah, meine forcierte Fleischfresserei zu unterbrechen. Nach acht Monaten Veganismus war der zweite Tumor vollkommen verschwunden, sowie die Arthritis und andere kleine Zeichen.
Aber: im selben Moment erschien ein Leistenbruch, den mir Ärzte und Orthopedisten als irreversibel versicherten und nur mit Operation heibar sei. Das war offensichtlich ein Zeichen eines Mangels an tierischem Eiweiß. Ich probierte sogleich, die üblichen tierischen Proteine (xxxxx ) durch Wildfleisch (Wildschein, …?) und wilde tierische Produkte (welche???) zu ersetzen, da der Geschmack und die instinktive Sperre von Fleisch etc. wilder Tiere viel stärker ist und gegen eine Überlastung besser hütet. Nach nur sechs Monaten war der Leistenbruch vollkommen (und endgültig) verschwunden und keine anderen negativen Zeichen zurückgekehrt. Das war für mich ein klarer Beweis, dass unser Organismus einerseits durch einen zu großen Fleischverzehr in Gefahr gestellt wird, er andererseits eine gewisse Menge an tierischen Produkten doch benötigt.
Viele um mich herum wollten meine Meinung nicht annehmen, besonders meine Frau, die überzeugt war, dass der Instinkt sie gegen Schwierigkeiten schützen würde, wie es bei vielen Kranken der Fall war. Leider funktionierte dies nicht mit dem üblichen Fleisch (gezüchteter Tiere, viel milderer Geschmack) und führte bei ihr zu Krebs und Tod. Sie hörte mit dem übertriebenen Fleischverzehr drei Wochen vor ihrem Ende auf, es war jedoch zu spät (zudem verhärtete die Chemotherapie in den letzten Monaten die Bronchen vollkommen, sodass die Atmung unmöglich wurde - daran verstarb sie). So gab ich sofort allen Instinktos Bescheid, damit niemand ähnliche Probleme bekommen würde. Es ist also eine gewaltige Übertreibung zu sagen, dass ich „eine gewaltige Menge Menschen in die Irre geführt“ hätte. Ganz im Gegenteil sind meine Frau und ich selbst die Risikos eingegangen, um das Problem klarzustellen, und schließlich um Beschwerden an anderen zu verhindern.
Mit wildem Fleisch habe ich bisher keine Beweise, dass es eventuell schädlich sein könnte. Ich habe nur Erfolge vermerkt, aber vielleicht wird nach weiteren fünfzig Jahren instinktiver Praxis noch etwas eintreffen. Es ist völlig klar, dass unsere Nahrungspalette nicht genau dieselbe ist, die unsere Vorfahren hatten. Sämtliche Primaten verzehren täglich Insekten. Viele Menschen auch. So könnte man postulieren, dass Insekten für eine perfekte Ausgewogenhei notwendig sind.
Aus Vorsicht habe ich deswegen im Visier, eine neue Phase der Untersuchung in Gang zu setzen. Letztes Jahr habe ich schon die ganze Saison Bienenlarven als exklusives tierisches Produkt gehabt, mit sehr erstaunlichen Resultaten. Ich habe vor alsbald möglich ein neues Zentrum in Südspanien zu gründen. In diesem Klima können sich Bienen fast das ganze Jahr hindurch entwickeln und dies ganz ohne künstliche Zufütterung. Maulbeerbäume wachsen auch sehr schnell und die Raupe des Seidenspinners ist leicht zu züchten. So werden wir auch Seidenstoffe und nicht nur Nährstoffe produzieren...
Ich denke unsere Pflicht ist nicht uns selbst oder andere in ein geschlossenes System zu sperren, und jeglichen davon abweichenden Versuch als „ irrsinnig“ zu erklären. Wichtig ist jedoch zu wissen, welche die richtige Ernährung für den Menschen ist, damit jeder die Freiheit hat, den besten Weg zur Gesundheit und Wohlbefinden einzuschlagen.

[goodsamaritan]

Thank you for your translation Iguana. 
Certainly helped us English readers understand GCB's message.


So GCB's wife seemed to have been killed by CHEMOTHERAPY... not by eating raw meat... which could have easily been stopped.
I'm surprised she accepted chemotherapy as a treatment.
Hopefully GCB can rest his mind that it was chemotherapy that killed her.

[van]

Did I miss something or did he write that he had experimented for some time eating smaller, much smaller amounts of domesticated animal protein, at more frequent intervals?   I did get the part where Nicole was the guinea pig and ate till full.    Again, it may be so contrary to his instinctual practices that he just can't see the possibility.  He appears to draw conclusions a bit prematurely for a scientist (going from lots of meat, to only bee protein).     But maybe I don't know his whole story.     I witnessed Nicole over the years I visited Montrame eating quite large protein meals, and also eating very late at night, and staying up very late.   I think even though she was surrounded by instinctos at the castle, she appeared driven, all day long, at a quick pace, and lonely,, not getting real love.  A hypothesis might be that one's instinctual stop may be reset by the loss of real love.   There are more common names for that practice that typically aren't associated with true hunger.   
   It was the practice there to eat late, presumably so that one could go till noon the next day when the next meal was served.  Where everyone was hungrily eating copious amounts of fruit, not just the guests.    Eating late at night ( a european cultural habit) doesn't work for me. 

[Iguana]

GS:

Thank you for your translation Iguana. 
Certainly helped us English readers understand GCB's message.

Glad that at least someone thanks me! I saw there are still plenty of bugs and imperfections in the translation, but at least it’s readable.

So GCB's wife seemed to have been killed by CHEMOTHERAPY... not by eating raw meat... which could have easily been stopped.

I doubt it could have been reverted, when it’s too late it’s too late.

Van:

Did I miss something or did he write that he had experimented for some time eating smaller, much smaller amounts of domesticated animal protein, at more frequent intervals?

He can only report about the experiments they have done, not about the hundred thousands imaginable ones they didn’t do.

I did get the part where Nicole was the guinea pig and ate till full.

I read that both of them were the voluntary guinea pigs.

  Again, it may be so contrary to his instinctual practices that he just can't see the possibility.  He appears to draw conclusions a bit prematurely for a scientist (going from lots of meat, to only bee protein).     But maybe I don't know his whole story.

Feel free to draw less "premature" conclusions.

she appeared driven, all day long, at a quick pace, and lonely,, not getting real love.  A hypothesis might be that one's instinctual stop may be reset by the loss of real love.   There are more common names for that practice that typically aren't associated with true hunger.

Yes, that’s possible, I don’t know. Is “bulimia” the word you talk about?

Inger: Did you find the answers to your questions?

[van]

GS:
Glad that at least someone thanks me! I saw there are still plenty of bugs and imperfections in the translation, but at least it’s readable.

I doubt it could have been reverted, when it’s too late it’s too late.

Van:
He can only report about the experiments they have done, not about the hundred thousands imaginable ones they didn’t do.

I read that both of them were the voluntary guinea pigs.

Feel free to draw less "premature" conclusions.

Yes, that’s possible, I don’t know. Is “bulimia” the word you talk about?

Inger: Did you find the answers to your questions?

I don't understand why you'd lump the investigation on what harm eating large amounts of animal protein might do with the hundreds of thousands....  It seems you're adverse to considering that also..   That expression of the apple falling not far from the tree seems to apply here. 

  I wasn't thinking of bulimia, but simply eating to fill the void of love, of which you and I have written about before.  Some eat mashed potatoes, some donuts, some meat, some fruit,,  anything eaten to excess,, or all of the above at once,, that will dull the empty feelings..

[Iguana]

I fail to see the point, Van. No animal nor any of our ancestors would have thought: “Oh, I finally could access to a carcass with a lot of meat left on it, but I must refrain to eat much because God knows what harm eating large amounts of animal protein at once might do to my body. I’d better eat a small amount, go for a walk and come back latter to see if other animals have been kind enough to leave some of this meat for me.”

I already imagine you’re going to argue that these animals and hominids ancestors of ours didn’t care to have a long live as we could now have if we do what they have never done. Please, tell this to others, not to me anymore! 

[eveheart]

I fail to see the point, Van. No animal nor any of our ancestors would have thought: “Oh, I finally could access to a carcass with a lot of meat left on it, but I must refrain to eat much because God knows what harm eating large amounts of animal protein at once might do to my body. I’d better eat a small amount, go for a walk and come back latter to see if other animals have been kind enough to leave some of this meat for me.”

In this ancestral model, we are told that our modern diseases were not found. Many people, including myself, have found that instinctive eating along is not curative. Van's argument is plausible from both a physical and physiological standpoint.

I have experienced overeating from a physiological cause, hence I find it necessary to limit my intake of both carbohydrates and proteins to prevent triggering an excessive insulin release that can cause hunger even when food intake appears adequate. For years, this hunger was treated as a psychological need because the true cause was not named.

Now I know that only when I moderate my insulin response through appropriate eating strategies do I avoid a desire to overeat. In other words, certain physical conditions can override the instinctive stop, even when instinctive eating guidelines are followed accurately.

This is another possible interpretation of Nicole's desire to eat. It is counterproductive to apply knowledge too narrowly; then knowledge degrades to dogma.

[Iguana]

Who is applying knowledge, Eve? I read that you "find it necessary to limit (your) intake of both carbohydrates and proteins to prevent triggering an excessive insulin release that can cause hunger even when food intake appears adequate" and "moderate (your) insulin response through appropriate eating strategies". isn't that applying knowledge?   

[micelte]

I feel the truth probably is that it is a joke to believe one can actually be instincto. GCB's theories are great as principles, but I feel very few people on earth can actually claim being true instinctos.

Why? Because the ENVIRONMENT is everything. I believe that our sense of smell and taste about a particular food can be greatly affected and bias our choices when we haven't lived as naturally as we should have.

Example: you haven't slept all night, and or you have been under huge stress, worrying like crazy: can you still trust your senses? Don't you think your instinct is still instinctive? At the opposite, imagine you've had a great workout and are now truely hungry: your senses are so sharp when this happens, and you are so far from thinking about what you "should be" eating that there is no question: your instinct is very pure.

If we were all living as our ancesters did, sure, our senses would guide us better... but the very fact that we are users of the RPD forum probably means we worry more than what we should to have unbiased senses, hence no one here could actually claim being a true instincto.

Anyone sees my point?

[eveheart]

Who is applying knowledge, Eve? I read that you "moderate (your) insulin response through appropriate eating strategies". isn't that applying knowledge?   

Yes, applying knowledge is exactly what I do. I follow the guidelines for instinctive eating, yet bypass instinct in the areas where I know that a modern disease is present in me. If I wait for the instinctive stop, it won't arrive, because the disease process does not send the right signals. I came to RPD with several modern diseases, and RPD has not cured them outright. My paleolithic ancestors would not have had to contend with these diseases.

I never knew Nicole, but when I hear her eating habits described, I can't help but thinking that she didn't put together some clues because she was relying on instinct where knowledge would have served her better.

Telling a sick person that instinctive eating is an authentic paleolithic way to eat is not enough when their personal experience tells them that they are not an authentic paleolithic person. I think that needs to be made clear.

[goodsamaritan]

Same here.

I also use both instinct and knowledge depending on the situation for myself and for patients.

[goodsamaritan]

Alphagruis continues to make welcome comments to this forum topic via posting comments on my blog.  Here is his contribution:

Author : instincto drivel ( even more) (IP: 90.6.28.226 , AStrasbourg-752-1-9-226.w90-6.abo.wanadoo.fr)

No Edwin, you're quite mistaken and indulge yourself in wishful thinking.  It's definitively nothing else but the INSTINCTO bullshit that killed Burger's wife as well as others.

She really got cancer and would have died even without chemotherapy, which was just a desperate final attempt to save her.

And she got cancer because she systematically overate raw MUSCLE meat (importance of fat, organs etc was by then and still essentially is just ignored by instincto guru, the "instinct" forgot to tell him). And she did this because of the foolish instincto stance that "allows" one  to eat up to the so-called instinctive stop, whatever the amount taken in in this way might ever be . And this stance is unfortunately just plain wrong. Meat was actually never available to our ancestors day after day in such large amounts. As simple as that.

Well, of course you're free to continue to be fooled by instincto stance and guru.

And in addition:

Why is the instincto stance or "theory" fundamentally flawed?

There are many reasons and one major one is just that these so-called instinctive stop signals ,supposed to prevent overeating in order for an appropriate « instinct » to really work, never ever were or had to be under darwinian selective pressure.

And this, in turn, is just because meat was actually never available to our ancestors day after day for years in such large amounts. As simple as that.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for sharing that, GS. Good to hear from Alphagruis again. It seems that GCB's views are moving closer to those of Alphagruis. Their quotes are not so far apart now, though Iguana may disagree with me.

[Among] GCB, Alphagruis, Iguana, lots and lots of ex-VLCers [and others], there is a growing consensus that in the longer run it is not healthy to eat lots of raw muscle meat and fat and little else. Starving our beneficial gut bacteria makes no sense. [Edit: I'm not trying to imply anything about what GCB, Alphagruis, or Iguana ate in the past or eat now, just noting the rough consensus in the comments about one thing to avoid, which is good to see--this is a complement, not a criticism]

[van]

I doubt that Iguana and GCB have ever eaten lots of fat.  And neither has eaten in such a way to limit the numbers of plant eating bacteria.  Just to keep the information/evidence straight.     I also have a feeling that as more information is gathered that, there will be some findings about those who cook and kill all microbes in their meat and fat, and those that don't and hence continue feeding their guts with all sorts of living bacteria etc.    killing an antelope and eating it's stomach and organs right there on the spot, is years away from going to costco and bringing a rib eye and broiling it.   Now that's a change in direction from every early man specie,, sterilizing every thing that goes into their mouth, including water.

[PaleoPhil]

I also have a feeling that as more information is gathered that, there will be some findings about those who cook and kill all microbes in their meat and fat, and those that don't and hence continue feeding their guts with all sorts of living bacteria etc.

And it is not just microbes that are destroyed with cooking, it is also prebiotics in plant foods, such as resistant starch, fructo-oligosaccharides, pectin, mucins, inulin, and so on, which are highest in raw foods. It's strange that this has not been more vigorously embraced by rawists. It is one of the best arguments for eating more raw.