GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health

[goodsamaritan]

I believe that the core of the problem is that the total lack of a food class (such as insects) leads the body to more easily accept substitutes. Meat consumed regularly is likely an instinctive workaround for the lack of insects, amplified by the absence of accurate instinctive repulsion with domestic meat.

GCB,

Now I understand what you really meant by the article and how the title should have been rephrased to say something like:

Could the absence of Insects in Human Diets Lead to Over Consumption of Domestic Red Meat?

Which then we should discuss here or on another thread, which insects to consume?  And what about sea food or fresh water food?

I have a thing for sea food as I was introduced to Raw Paleo Diets via Wai Diet.  Plus I live in an archipelago, we got lots of sea food.

[Iguana]

Eric and Van, I think you’ll find answers to your questions in this part of an article GCB wrote in 1994 and which I translated last night. I underlined the most relevant phrases.

About the consumption of organs, I can only say that the old-timers that I know are all very fond of organs and bone marrow. The problem even seems to be that these products are in short supply and thus difficult to obtain regularly, being expensive at Orkos and only available the first week after an animal has just been butchered. 

Instincto Magazine, June 1994, n° 62 ; “Chronique” by G.-C. Burger
(Translated last part of the article)

A general model

Statistics have shown that the incidence of cancer is higher in regions of the world where people eat more protein. It is a protein in cow's milk that is now accused of crossing the intestinal barrier and trigger the autoimmune destruction of pancreatic cells responsible for juvenile diabetes. Rheumatoid itself, model of autoimmune disease, appear induced by food proteins. Cardiovascular diseases are officially attributed to poor protein balance; this conclusion from a recent epidemiological study in Lyon even made the number 1 news on TV. Perhaps it won’t be long for the official medicine to admit that most diseases are just the manifestations of a fundamental phenomenon: whenever  digestive difficulties occur as a result of diet practices not complying with genetic data of our body, some complex molecules brought by food are not properly degraded, cross the intestinal barrier and enter the circulating fluids. Immunology teaches us the following : repeated penetration of antigens leads to either intolerance or tolerance phenomena. Such a situation opens the way for all diseases : infectious, autoimmune and neoplasic. This means medicine will have to resume its assumptions from scratch and recognize that nutrition has the major significance it had always refused to admit.

And instincto ?

Anyway, we also have to we also revise our stance. We must imperatively improve our practice in order to avoid any cause of poor digestion. From an instincto advocating blind faith in the instinctive mechanisms of smell and taste, we must move to a much more cautious view: repeated small errors in daily practice, as long as they cause digestive problems, even apparently insignificant, may be sufficient to pave the way for diseases that we claim to avoid. It is not enough to eat raw to be free of so-called civilization diseases, far from that: we’ve got to be in ideal dietary and digestive balance just like every animal attains it by obeying his instincts. To do this we must learn to obey much more precisely to the different signals that our own body gives us.

The case of meat

A question remains : why meat appears at the common denominator of almost all cases of tumors we observed ? I see two reasons for this : the proteins of mammals are closer to us than any other. They are our cousins in the family tree of evolution and are differentiated from us by much smaller number of mutations than birds, reptiles, fish, crustaceans or mollusks.

Proteins resembling those that our own body synthesizes can more easily induce our immune system into error. The work of our lymphocytes is precisely to distinguish self antigens (ours) from non-self antigens (foreign). That’s how bacteria, viruses, cancer cells and large molecules from outside (venoms, pollens, dust deposited on mucous membranes, etc.) are recognized. Regular penetration of food molecules most similar to antigens configurations it uses for this tracking work can obviously more easily mislead our immune system. Such confusion can either cause an attack on body cells bearing similar proteins, or to a failure to recognize foreign or abnormal elements. Thus, we can explain on one hand  autoimmune and allergic diseases, and on the other hand bacterial, viral and cancer diseases.

"Cows" molecules in our blood

Every molecule of external origin crossing the intestinal barrier while remaining complex enough to challenge the immune system can in principle induce such confusion. We must therefore beware of any food overload of whatever nature: plants proteins as well as animal protein are antigens, that is to say triggering immunological reactions, but it is also the case of certain lipids and certain polysaccharides (complex sugars).

However, proteins of mammals meat comprise amino acid sequences most similar to human proteins. In case of overload, it’s these ones that will most likely confuse our immune system.
I can only regret having failed to make this reasoning earlier, though fairly obvious and even mathematic. I could perhaps have avoided tragedies, including the death of my own wife. In my defense, I must say that my warnings, previously based more on intuition, remained mostly unheard. Besuchet for example, frequently bought meat from producers that I advised to avoid  having noticed abnormal flavors by testing it. In meats from a badly fed animals, accumulated abnormal substances distort the sense of taste, even up to the point of erasing the gustatory stop. The denatured food is generally fascinating, and this is sufficient to explain a bulimia of meat, like the ability to eat a whole pork in three months: this pork purchased by Patrick came from a French producer who provides a number of instinctos, although I have already pointed out that his meat failed our tests.

No wonder that the instinct malfunctions with meat produced in poor conditions, since parasitic flavors can lead to eating excessive amounts, easily two to three times more than normal.

In the case of Nicole, she ate only meat that met all our criteria. How is it that instinct did not protect her ? Here again, I could have thought about it of earlier : livestock, such as cows, pigs, sheep, were selected over generations and their flesh has no longer the flavor of their wild ancestors. Buffalo meat, wild boar, chamois are very strong in taste and the instinctive barrier hardly allows an excessive consumption. I found it out during my period of overload: a piece of chamois sent by a Swiss friend seemed so strong in taste, almost burning like a wild fig, that I could not swallow a mouthful. The possibility therefore exists to get into overload quite easily with cattle meat, even if the animal is reared in natural conditions: its genetics is no longer natural and our aliesthetic mechanisms can not protect us properly.

Meat : user’s manual

The rule that I teach since I became aware of this phenomenon is the following : consume only meat produced under proper conditions, devoid of any misleading flavor. It should only be consumed in the yummy phase and stopped as soon as its flavor begins to disappear. In addition, avoid eating another food at the same meal as it may complicate the digestive process and thwart the degradation of foreign proteins.

This leads us to eat meat less often but in greater quantity at once. This approach combines all the advantages : it allows to have a ration of protein, fatty acids, vitamin B 12, etc. sufficient to satisfy the needs of all the body's cells; it ensures the fullest possible degradation of foreign proteins because the digestive processes are neither disturbed by an overflow due to the amount, nor by undesirable chemical reactions due to bad associations.

Indeed, there have been many years since I recommended to consume meat in accordance with these rules, simply for the sake of reproducing the natural conditions: the chimpanzee doesn’t find every day a chop of warthog hanging from a branch. There is no fridge in the jungle, and when Jane Goodall friends caught a boar, they shared it in a single meal, the leftovers being quickly devoured by vultures, ants or maggots...

Technology, coupled with our mindset of recurrence, unfortunately allows us to do it every day, the sweetened flavors of selected meat do not necessarily protect us against repetition, and it automatically induces immune system disorders.

Only solution : a proper balance

It should not be inferred from all this that meat is harmful in itself. Experience has also shown that it can play a vital role in the recovery of the body weight and in recovery and healing of diseases, including cancer. What is harmful is the imbalance.

Cultivate an anxiety about animal proteins, as do many vegetarians, is as harmful as the dietary bias pushing to consume some every day. All food is harmful when consumed in excessive quantities. Rejection of a food class can lead to equally harmful deficiencies.

The only solution is provided by our instinct: it alone can tell us what food we should eat and when to stop before an overload. It is still necessary to know that it can’t work properly in unnatural conditions, which thwart its valuable operation.

 

[goodsamaritan]

birds, reptiles, fish, crustaceans or mollusks.... and then insects...

I'm liking this list.

Only problem I see here is how to get enough fat.

From this list I can see I can get fat from bird eggs and fish eggs... maybe ant larvae?

[van]

Again, buffalo, the same blood lines as hundreds of years ago, that I buy from Wisconsin, to me, is a bette tasting meat than beef, with no more of a stop.   GCB still doesn't address eating more protein than one needs in one meal.  I hope others here can see this point.  For again,  I think the Instincto's belief system prevents them from acknowledging  or investigating what current science has to offer about excess protein.  The instincto stop does not aid one in living a long life, for that 'stop' isn't 'programmed' to tell us when we've had enough protein, nor for that matter sugar, when eating long fruit day after day.   
    If GCB should be willing to look into this matter, I'd be happy to help guide him to studies reporting what I'm stating.      And,  For me, it just too easy to suggest that mammalian proteins are just too similar to ours....   come on GCB,  show us some evidence other than philosophy or a simple hypothesis.   

[Hanna]

Iguana:

I didn’t specially mean too much food, but rather too long digestive duration per day.

Ok, but the fact remains that alliesthetic stops don’t protect you from impairing your physiological balance by, for example, eating too late at night or eating too often. I don’t see why our (raw) paleo ancestors should always have slept far away from fruit trees or fruit leftovers, (stored or leftover) nuts, stored or leftover meats etc. And if they did, wasn’t this likely a form of (learned) tradition or learned behavior?

Van:

Again, buffalo, the same blood lines as hundreds of years ago, that I buy from Wisconsin, to me, is a bette tasting meat than beef, with no more of a stop.

Yes, I like wild meats more than other meats too. Currently I don’t perceive (clear) stops with any meat and follow my „intuition" to determine the end of a meat meal.

GCB still doesn't address eating more protein than one needs in one meal.  I hope others here can see this point. 

I have always been a "fan" of small meals, but don’t know whether or to which extent this was/is induced by medical preconditions.

[Hanna]

If GCB should be willing to look into this matter, I'd be happy to help guide him to studies reporting what I'm stating.     

Van, I'm interested in these studies! Which studies do you mean?

[van]

I'd really have to search online again,  but for the moment Ron Rosedale writes quite a bit on the effects of excess protein.  Good place to start.  But look at what is the resultant of converting protein to glucose in the case of excesses, and the by products that the body has to deal with.     This was one of the benefits of urine 'therapy', was that I  discovered first hand what my body was having to filter each time I overate meat/protein.  Before it ended up in my urine, it was coursing through my blood..

[Iguana]

 

Iguana: Ok, but the fact remains that alliesthetic stops don’t protect you from impairing your physiological balance by, for example, eating too late at night or eating too often. I don’t see why our (raw) paleo ancestors should always have slept far away from fruit trees or fruit leftovers, (stored or leftover) nuts, stored or leftover meats etc. And if they did, wasn’t this likely a form of (learned) tradition or learned behavior?

It doesn’t protect us from impairing our physiological balance by eating too many different foods in a meal or/and in a day. It’s unlikely that our pre-fire ancestors permanently had around them a broad choice of different foods as we can have in our fridges and basement. We can have fish, eggs, various meat in our fridges and plenty of different nuts, avocados, vegetables and fruits stored  but this is a completely artificial situation.

Before having the fire, they could hardly eat at night, except by moonlight. Moreover, they had never regularly eaten cooked food as we’ve done during decades, so their bodies didn’t have to detoxinate as ours do or attempt to do, something that can't be performed when we are digesting.

Do you argue the opposite of Alphagruis and Inger and mean that these ancestors routinely kept so many various foods around them as we can do? Sure, they may sometimes have had a few different leftovers. But in nature, you seldom find seafood, different fruits, various nuts, tubers, eggs, honey, carcasses of mammals and their organs in the same area.   

Van: Yes, I like wild meats more than other meats too. Currently I don’t perceive (clear) stops with any meat and follow my „intuition" to determine the end of a meat meal.
I have always been a "fan" of small meals, but don’t know whether or to which extent this was/is induced by medical preconditions.

I too prefer wild meats, they have much stronger smell and taste than beef. But I think it’s this strong taste which makes a difference. I feel  that “intuition and “instinct” overlap. The longer I’ve been without meat, the more I eat at once. Back home after an 8 months trip around the world in which the only animal foods I had were fish and some seabirds’ eggs, I got half of a chamois. I ate the whole rear leg in 2 days. The instinctive stop is very gradual and can be after a lot of meat, but if we limit ourselves to small amounts based on preconceived ideas of what is enough, we may never reach it.

My family members could not stand the smell of matured chamois while it was appetizing for me. But  matured beef didn’t repeal them that much while it was less attractive for me than chamois. As I find difficult to explain what I would like to say, I made a graph.     

[Iguana]

Van:

…on the effects of excess protein.  Good place to start.  But look at what is the resultant of converting protein to glucose in the case of excesses, and the by products that the body has to deal with.

The only solution is provided by our instinct: it alone can tell us what food we should eat and when to stop before an overload.

This was one of the benefits of urine 'therapy', was that I  discovered first hand what my body was having to filter each time I overate meat/protein.  Before it ended up in my urine, it was coursing through my blood..

Not sure I understand. Do you mean that by drinking your urine you knew if you ate too much proteins or not enough and how much to it next time?

GS:

Could the absence of Insects in Human Diets Lead to Over Consumption of Domestic Red Meat?
Which then we should discuss here or on another thread, which insects to consume?  And what about sea food or fresh water food?

Yeah, it would be a better title, I think. TD just opened a thread about insects.

I have a thing for sea food as I was introduced to Raw Paleo Diets via Wai Diet.  Plus I live in an archipelago, we got lots of sea food.
birds, reptiles, fish, crustaceans or mollusks.... and then insects...
I'm liking this list.
Only problem I see here is how to get enough fat.
From this list I can see I can get fat from bird eggs and fish eggs... maybe ant larvae?

You’re lucky, there is certainly a broader variety of paleo food in Philippines than in most continental places. For fat, you have durians, coconuts, avocados! Ant larvae should be tried, yes, I think so. I tried once ants, but they are acid. 

[Hanna]

Hi Van,

What happens to your urine if you eat too much meat?

Do you eat "several small meals or snacks throughout the day“ as recommended by Rosedale? Do these meals consist of animal foods?

[van]

I eat three smaller protein meals a day,, hardly ever a large one.   I try to keep my urine where it is mild, pleasant.  And yes you can drink excessive water to dilute the effect of eating large protein meals,,, but to me, that is only masking what's going on initially. 
   Again, I think original peoples gorged on protein, animals, whenever they could.  I'm sure I would too, not knowing when I would get my next meal.  I don't live then, so don't have to eat that way now.  It's a choice I make.    For I could and do enjoy eating more protein at one sitting then i do..  just as I could and would enjoy eating more sugar/fruit at one meal than I do.   That too is a choice.   The only food group that I don't limit and eat to satiety is fat.  I don't see any negative effects from eating fat till the stop comes.     And yes this takes discipline and doesn't rely on an instinctual stop, but again, I don't hold early man's eating habits as a bible for my present way of health.  Different times, different peoples.     I should include that I am sensitive to my needs, at least as much as I can be, of protein.  I'm sure if I was in heavy weight lifting or manual labor they would be higher.  But it feels to me to be best at the low ends of protein consumption as well as sugar. 

[Hanna]

GS, Iguana, I would still choose the title I chose when I opened up this thread ("GCB: Eating meat is harmful to health“). Or „Eating meat regularly is harmful to health“, if you like. Of course everyone is free to correct me if he thinks that I got something wrong, but please correct me by writing posts and not by censoring the words I wrote. 

[Iguana]

Done.

I asked you before modifying the title, but you didn't reply and I did the mistake to change it without your approval. I thought  you would complain if you don't agree, and then I would revert to the initial title.  Sorry, my fault.

There's the possibility to change the title of one's post only and I use this possibility for this post. Your title will come automatically with every new post unless the author changes it. 

[Iguana]

I eat three smaller protein meals a day,, hardly ever a large one.   I try to keep my urine where it is mild, pleasant.  And yes you can drink excessive water to dilute the effect of eating large protein meals,,, but to me, that is only masking what's going on initially. 
   Again, I think original peoples gorged on protein, animals, whenever they could.  I'm sure I would too, not knowing when I would get my next meal.  I don't live then, so don't have to eat that way now.  It's a choice I make.    For I could and do enjoy eating more protein at one sitting then i do..  just as I could and would enjoy eating more sugar/fruit at one meal than I do.   That too is a choice.   The only food group that I don't limit and eat to satiety is fat.  I don't see any negative effects from eating fat till the stop comes.     And yes this takes discipline and doesn't rely on an instinctual stop, but again, I don't hold early man's eating habits as a bible for my present way of health.  Different times, different peoples.     I should include that I am sensitive to my needs, at least as much as I can be, of protein.  I'm sure if I was in heavy weight lifting or manual labor they would be higher.  But it feels to me to be best at the low ends of protein consumption as well as sugar. 

Thanks for this explanation, Van. It makes some sense, although it's quite distinctive.

 So, you drink or take the taste of your urine to get a feedback and adjust the amount and type of food you eat accordingly? That’s weird! 

[van]

Weird, I suppose, but lots of things are to the unexperienced mind.   I thought eating raw meat was more than weird the first time I heard of it.  I don't do urine to determine... it was a natural fall out.   I would imagine I could have blood work done to determine high insulin levels due to over consumption of meat and sugar/fruit and the toxins that are created by protein being converted to glucose.   Urine seems so much more immediate and simple, and, free.  But first one would have to be open to the idea that there are excesses eaten in the first place.  For years I didn't want to go there.  Funny how we hold onto what we want to believe.

[PaleoPhil]

One common factor among bee brood, raw organs and chufas is that they all contain starch (either animal starch, aka glycogen, or intriguingly similar plant starches) and glycans. For those promoting Instincto or Paleo approaches with an aim to avoid the problems that GCB and his wife encountered, wouldn't it be easier and more practical to persuade Instinctos and raw Paleoists to try eating more Instincto-type starchy foods (from plant and/or animal sources), such as liver, chufas, the plant sources that Iguana mentioned before in another thread (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster/msg119982/#msg119982), and other sources, than bee brood or urine? Isn't a diet more likely to succeed and become popular if it's doable and not too off-putting?

[Iguana]

Yes, this urine drinking thing is an off-putting nonsense which shouldn’t even be mentioned here. Urine  contains toxins our body expels, thus it must not be drunk unless one wants to re-circulate his own toxins. It has been explained before and I still wait for this to be shown wrong!

The resulting urine contains high concentrations of urea and other substances, including toxins.

Moreover, it’s not raw-paleo (you need some kind of container and our pre-fire ancestors hardly had any) and even more so, not “instincto”. Anyway you’re free to do it, Van, but even if you spit it, I doubt such a test is valid since our urine can contain toxins whose origin can be back from the years we were eating cooked modern and Neolithic foods. Consuming a large amount of a good raw paleo food can trigger an elimination of anciently accumulated  toxins. I would have supposed this is well known by most of us here.
   

Because we've been eating an unnatural diet for several decades, or at least during several years.  Our mother also had a mostly cooked diet with dairy, wheat, etc. and toxins are transmitted through the placenta and milk.

It's a big mistake to think that since we've been eating raw paleo for some time, then our urine must be clean. Just think about a sponge (or even a plastic can) having been used for a toxic fluid. Would you ever use it for alimentary purposes, even after having washed it a hundred times?

Drinking our urine is the best way to recycle the toxins our body is trying to expel.  I would never use it for skin/hair care either, that's silly and disgusting. 

Another of our topics: Urine therapy nonsense
----------------------
Phil, entomophagy (insects eating) maybe a bit off-putting for us Westerners but it’s been always practiced and is still common amongst many hunter-gatherers as well as in China and other Asian countries. I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary in the short and medium term, but it is certainly an important category of animal food missing in our diets, and this absence can cause imbalance in the long run, just like the absence of sea food, meat or plants.   

[PaleoPhil]

I'm all for entomophagy, I just think it will be a harder sell than, say, chufas, chestnuts or semi-ripe, semi-sweet dried plantains. Isn't there a French saying along the lines of "perfection is the enemy of the good"?

[Iguana]

Humh... chufas seem to be a very hard sell to Tyler! 
Yes, "la perfection est l'ennemi du bien"! That's why goods made in France are good but far from perfect, LOL!  But since GCB (like me) is Swiss, the "instincto" is a Swiss product and must be perfect like all Swiss artifacts, haha!   

[Sorentus]

Regarding urine therapy, I tried it. Drank my own urine every morning for many months and saw absolutely no change, I was still chronically tired and when the allergy season came I had hay fever as bad as ever. That was back when I was free of major health problems and considered myself very healthy.

I even tried it for warts and got no results, what worked for warts was apple cider vinegar though.

[PaleoPhil]

Humh... chufas seem to be a very hard sell to Tyler! 
Yes, "la perfection est l'ennemi du bien"! That's why goods made in France are good but far from perfect, LOL!  But since GCB (like me) is Swiss, the "instincto" is a Swiss product and must be perfect like all Swiss artifacts, haha!   

Haha, touche! But you use the French language more than me nonetheless, oui?

I think you are more credible on chufas than Tyler, given that you have actually tried them! 

[van]

Phil, I wonder if you've thought about the fact that, as far as I know, none of the zero-low carbers here on this forum are reporting the disastrous  effects you mention from other sources?   I can't help think it might just be that we eat raw food here, replete with all the bacteria intact. 

    Another point,  just read in one of your posted links where sea weed is one of the better prebiotics as well as garlic.  Those are two of my daily staples I've included for many many years.    So what do you know,, maybe my poops are cousins to your new clan. 

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, I wonder if you've thought about the fact that, as far as I know, none of the zero-low carbers here on this forum are reporting the disastrous  effects you mention from other sources?

Which disastrous effects are you talking about? The worst effects are of course going to be the least common, and minor effects more common, as with just about any suboptimal approach. Several negative reports were pointed out to you by multiple people, and I think those people who originally reported them were mainly the ones who characterized their experience as basically disastrous (such as Brady and Lowenherz--feel free to peruse their reports, maybe I'm remembering wrongly) and others just quite bad (such as Miles, who I think only added in a small amount of carbs). You can choose to believe or not believe these people's reports and the many negative reports elsewhere from cooked VLCers/ZCers and low-starch raw fruitarians.

I agree that eating plenty of raw foods is likely a help in reducing the problems from VLC/ZC, and I think it helped me and Lex (and you) do better than most of the cooked VLCers, as I've mentioned before.

If you think something as unusual as urine therapy helps, why couldn't something much more mundane and recognized in the scientific community, like eating the better quality starchy Paleo foods, help? Your mind seems fairly made up and it seems like you're looking more for reasons to keep doing what your doing than to consider other possibilities, and I'm not out to try to change the minds of the committed, just share info with those who think there might be something better about stuff that was not well understood by me until some months ago and warn about the negative results I'm increasingly seeing reported, so suit yourself. I predict there will be an increasing sea change in the Paleo world that it sounds like you're not going to like, though it will be most pronounced in the much larger cooked sector, so maybe you'll be able to ignore it if you don't pay any attention to that sector.

It would be a bit more obvious here too if some folks who have reported privately to me came out publicly in the forum about their own experiments with RS, but I don't blame them for keeping them private, perhaps to avoid the sorts of criticisms that my posts have received. Then there's also the good results that Muhammad Sunshine reported from RS. He was the one who tipped me off about it (and like you, I was skeptical at first). So that's at least four people benefiting already in a relatively short space of time in just this little forum. Of course, I doubt you'll believe any of us, which is again your choice, and of course there will likely be some VLCers for a long time to come. There may even be ways to do it safely that incorporate prebiotics.

Another point,  just read in one of your posted links where sea weed is one of the better prebiotics as well as garlic.  Those are two of my daily staples I've included for many many years.

That's great, I've been eating them for quite a while myself, along with other raw veg/herbs. That didn't prevent me from benefiting from more of what was low in my diet. And who knows, maybe GCB's insect eating will work just as well for those who try it, given that they also contain (animal) starch and prebiotics like glycans. Good luck with whatever you do.

As for me, if given a choice between chufas and urine, I'd go with the chufas.

[van]

Hey, dude, you got me wrong.  First I'm not promoting urine, either for gut bugs or for a means to go low carb.  That's a whole other concept.   I'm not putting down RS.  I just mentioned that I discovered that I've already been eating them 'accidentally' for some very long time.  And who knows maybe that's why I do fine and haven't been put in the pile of others who haven't.  If anything I have taken a stance with you for you to share with us over the long haul how it goes for you, and to keep us posted to other peoples successes.       For instance, in one of the links you've provided there was mention of creating a product with RS combined with probiotics in a package form....   For almost the last year I've been taking one heaping teaspoon of psyllium to one cup of water and one or two capsules of a multi strain probiotic with soil organisms... Mixed up, forms a gel, protects the bacteria from stomach acid, taken late at night after any digestion is still going on.   Turns out from your links, psyllium fiber is also a great RS.   Forms excellent stools too.    And the last major article you provided about the Inuit and their complete diet including starches/animal carbs was eye opening if not humbling.   So please don't chastise me as one who is scorning you or your posts, just one who wants to see long term continued benefits.      We can always use 'facts' or those individuals who have failed at one diet or another to support our recent position or take on what it takes to be 'healthy'.    I was just saying that there are more people doing well here for some time on low carb than those you mention that have failed.    The whole science of gut bugs is and has been totally fascinating to me for many many years.  So don't count me out.  Let's just see what we can learn. 

[goodsamaritan]

Alphagruis / Gerard replied:

birds, reptiles, fish, crustaceans or mollusks.... and then insects...

I'm liking this list.

Only problem I see here is how to get enough fat.

From this list I can see I can get fat from bird eggs and fish eggs... maybe ant larvae?

Edwin , Insects ARE to a large extent fat and certainly very good fat.

The ones eaten routinely in Cameroon, such as a specific fly and and a white grub that resembles the european cockchafer grub and that develops in fallen oil palm tree trunks are very fatty.

The very high fat content is obvious just by taste in raw state and is apparently a general property of insects.

Yet the most spectacular proof is that when ( as they are sometimes with herbs and vegetables) cooked in a pan there is almost only a thick layer of oil left with just tiny "things" swimming in it once enough heated to melt the fat.

Maybe at last Burger is even going to experience what ketosis actually is !

It would have been so funny a 50 years "instinctive" journey. 

Yet once again, from what I have experienced it is NOT possible to eat wild insects as staples, in place of meat, fish or seafood.  In Africa they are usually only available seasonally and in limited amounts. And people are very fond of them.