GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health

[van]

Alphagruis,  hi,   my experience with bee larvae, which is over some years, is that they are especially full of sugar.  Even the ones which are about to hatch aren't full fat like other insects I've eaten.  I would be curious to see the break down; fats, protein, sugars...   But, grubs, grasshoppers, crickets, moths, and other larvae... now that's some good fatty eatin.

   Also it's SOO tempting to eat the honey that surrounds the bee larvae, doubt he'd be able to pass that up...

[Hanna]

Hi van,

Funny how we hold onto what we want to believe.

Very true.

I could have blood work done

Have you ever done blood work/measured blood sugar?

I eat three smaller protein meals a day,, hardly ever a large one.   I try to keep my urine where it is mild, pleasant.

So how much protein do you eat per protein meal or how much can you eat to keep you urine’s taste (?) pleasant?

Do you eat fruit/sugar meals in addition to the three protein meals or do you combine fruit with meat in the same meal?

Where did you find these grubs, moths, larvae? Are they all tasty? Is every moth/grub living in Middle Europe or Canada edible?

Thanks to Alpha for pointing out the fattiness of insects.

[PaleoPhil]

OK, sorry for misunderstanding, Van. A couple more successes were reported just within the past several days at another forum, where two LCers tried adding more RS or starchy foods to their diet and their chronic dry eyes problem resolved within days. One of them was told by her optometrist that it was a natural part of aging.

My understanding is that psyllium fiber contains mucilage, a gluey type of viscous fiber that soothes the mucous membrane of the colon, rather than RS, and that the idea of using it is to help the RS get to the end of the colon, where cancers most commonly occur:

There is a study on eating RS and psyllium. Eaten alone, they are digested in the first part of the large intestine, but eaten together, the fermentation site of the psyllium is shifted to the end of the LI.
http://freetheanimal.com/2013/09/tatertot-tim-experiment-low-carbers-so-in-short-pants-140g-starch-carbs-in-a-single-meal-blood-glucose-spikes-to-110.html#comment-537172

try mixing 1/2 - 1 TBS of psyllium husk with the potato starch. It contains mucilage which is good for the gut and also allows the potato starch to travel further along in the large intestine.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-41.html#post1365049

For a while I thought that VLC was a success for me too. Eventually I realized that a better success would be to fix the underlying problems that are causing my carb intolerance, which not everyone has, than to just keep minimizing carbs forever. Then I came across RS, which turned out to be a tool to help with that, and recently I added probiotics and psyllium to the mix, from which I haven't yet noticed any additional benefits.

We can always use 'facts' or those individuals who have failed at one diet or another to support our recent position or take on what it takes to be 'healthy'.

Yes, and this also applies to VLCers who think they are doing well and point to some examples of other VLCers who claim to be doing well while downplaying the negative reports. Given the latest research and reports, it doesn't seem like any VLCer can be sure that they are doing well overall without checking their gut microbiome or at least trying adding more RS-foods to their diet to see what happens. Just because you feel good and your body is doing well, doesn't guarantee that your gut microbiome is in good shape. The proof of a pudding is in the eating. I tried both--VLC with low RS and then adding more RS to my diet and found the latter to be superior so far.

So far I haven't seen any VLCers report good results from a gut microbiome test, so it would be helpful to support the VLC claims if at least one person did, and they might even become a hero of VLCers.

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, thanks for sharing your findings regarding the microbiom etc.
Yes, they adapt more rapidly than scientists initially guessed.
Could you please elaborate on this? Which foods, for example, have been shown to be metabolized better after days oder weeks because of gut flora (genome) changes?

I missed this question, sorry Hanna. I don't remember the specific foods tested in the study I read about this in, but I do recall that Jeff Leach tried a diet low in prebiotic plant foods and found that his gut microbiome changed dramatically. He published the results on the Internet. One concerning thing was that inflammatory proteobacteria increased on the low-prebiotic diet:

http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard

My increase in the phyla Proteobacteria from 0.03% in New Orleans to 2.63% in the desert, suggests this new, less acidic ecosystem may have favored some opportunistic pathogens. And in one final gut check – and most concerning of all to me, is the overall diversity of my gut microbiota was halved in the desert (as measured by species equivalent OTU’s). And as Ecosystems 101 teaches us, a less diverse microbiota is less resilient to perturbations and may tip one a tad closer to an unhealthy state.  One recent study suggests that my reduction in gut microbial diversity – while not dramatically altering my sanitation and hygiene practices in the process – may have had a lot to do with my reduction in dietary fiber. This is also been seen in mice fed high versus low fiber diets (personal communication, Justin Sonnenburg, Stanford University)

Food for thought supporting Iguana's point about the "dose makes the poison," aka hormesis:

"According to a paper called Lectins in the US: A Survey of Lectins in Commonly Consumed Foods and a review of the literature, they said, “Lectins are not exclusively found in legumes but are widely distributed through the plant kingdom.” http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/33/11/2338.full.pdf?origin=publication_detail In their particular study, they tested 88 different plants and found lectins in 29 of them and in some cases very substantial amounts and this included carrots, zucchini, tomato, cantaloupe, grapes, cherries, raspberries, blackberries, garlic and mushrooms, all considered to be Paleo-friendly foods of course.

They also reviewed other studies, which had found over 53 various fruits, vegetables, spices and other commonly eaten plants that contain lectins. Their conclusion was that exposure to dietary lectin is a frequent and widespread event."

http://robbwolf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Paleo-Solution-214.pdf

[jessica]

for me, VLC was necessary to overcome some endocrine issues that most likely stemmed from years of daily blood sugar swings. and actually 2 weeks of VLC/keto jump started my menstruation, which had not happened for 5 years. 

but there were many other factors, such as gaining a shit ton a weight, which I imagine a lot of estrogen was able to store in the fat, and also eating a high cholesterol diet and just resting, like, all the time........I did not do shit, I felt like shit, I just wanted to sleep and heal, so that is what I did.

that said, it was not something I could keep up with for longer then a month and found I over ate on VLC and still felt like shit(this might have been due to living in an extremely toxic environment, basically a crop duster cloud)  in hindsight I think I would not have over eaten so much if I would have added back jicama earlier in the process, its the one starchy veg I do really well with. but at least my hormones were balancing out so I was patient with that process and rode the snake of trying to be LC but also not being wise with honoring my cravings because when I would let my self have carbs it was tooo late and I would eat the hell out of figs and dates (o summer I miss you!)

so I can see where there is a huge benefit to go VLC  for periods of time, but I also think it is unwise to be stubborn and to force ones self to be VLC or even LC when it is causing symptoms such as lower back pain(which I have experienced), anxiety, sleeplessness, dry eyes, etc...

I think that cycling carbs is a great idea, I think that finding appropriate sources of carbs, be they seasonal, regional, ethnically appropriate,  or just what personally suites you and nourishes  you is extremely valuable. 

I think what we are all realizing and have been leaning towards is to not attach to any dogmas and to understand that health and diet, like life, are dynamic and in constant flux.  its a learning process to know what is best for you and how to adjust in relation to who you are, what you have been through, what has worked before, what hasn't, but also not be to stubborn in any direction.

my health and diet is much more balanced now.  I have said that numerous times on the MB but this is truly a time in my life I don't deal with much anxiety, i think I have a pretty normal level and actually not very much considering how crazy my life would be for others, haha!  I also have balanced hormones and a menstrual cycle that gives me clear signals of that, and gaining muscle and losing weight.  a clear goal for not ever being underweight again, no cravings, a more intuitive approach to food, no more inflammation from meals, consistently gaining energy, the ability to rest well, etc.  there are days I eat no carbs, there are days I hardly have time to eat, there are days all I eat is dates or honey , days all I eat is rotten meat and gristle or milk and coffee...just depends.  but for the most part I have a good idea of what kind of meals I can build for myself that will make me feel good, and have gained a really intuitive way of feeding myself within a certain criteria.

[van]

OK, sorry for misunderstanding, Van. A couple more successes were reported just within the past several days at another forum, where two LCers tried adding more RS or starchy foods to their diet and their chronic dry eyes problem resolved within days. One of them was told by her optometrist that it was a natural part of aging.

My understanding is that psyllium fiber contains mucilage, a gluey type of viscous fiber that soothes the mucous membrane of the colon, rather than RS, and that the idea of using it is to help the RS get to the end of the colon, where cancers most commonly occur:For a while I thought that VLC was a success for me too. Eventually I realized that a better success would be to fix the underlying problems that are causing my carb intolerance, which not everyone has, than to just keep minimizing carbs forever. Then I came across RS, which turned out to be a tool to help with that, and recently I added probiotics and psyllium to the mix, from which I haven't yet noticed any additional benefits.
Yes, and this also applies to VLCers who think they are doing well and point to some examples of other VLCers who claim to be doing well while downplaying the negative reports. Given the latest research and reports, it doesn't seem like any VLCer can be sure that they are doing well overall without checking their gut microbiome or at least trying adding more RS-foods to their diet to see what happens. Just because you feel good and your body is doing well, doesn't guarantee that your gut microbiome is in good shape. The proof of a pudding is in the eating. I tried both--VLC with low RS and then adding more RS to my diet and found the latter to be superior so far.

So far I haven't seen any VLCers report good results from a gut microbiome test, so it would be helpful to support the VLC claims if at least one person did, and they might even become a hero of VLCers.

good, and thanks for pointing out about the psyllium what I had missed in my cursory reading.     For those who have gone low or zero carb, like Jeff, and reported either in lab tests, or from feel, inflammatory  gut bugs,, I still wonder if it's similar to what happens when you pasteurize milk.  The milk is then set up for kinds of bad hosts because the good bacteria are no longer present to grow.   Cooking meat, and I'm only thinking Jeff eats cooked meat primarily, would be similar to pasteurizing milk, and might be like a petrie dish for what ever organisms there might be, as opposed to the extreme, and that would be eating high meat??  of which most hunter gather's ate quite a bit of,,, stomachs, intestines, culturing rotted fish, coming across rotted animals, plus all the bacteria from the ground  they eat off of.  I know I have somewhat mentioned this before, but to look under a microscope at cooked meat vs. non cooked would be like looking at an ariel photo of NY vs the Sahara (in terms of critters moving around).   The very fact that other predators who don't eat RS don't die of inflammatory bowel upsets, makes me wonder why then.   
   I know that Zoos around the world communicate well together.   They went from feeding cooked meat to raw, from what I understand, fairly unanimously when they discover how much healthier their carnivores were from eating raw.  And especially their breeding success rates.  Got to wonder if amongst the benefits of raw is exactly what I am speaking about;;  the bacteria present in raw, and devoid in cooked?
  I'll try shredding up some raw potato in my psyllium next time.  thanks

[PaleoPhil]

Surprisingly, jicama is reportedly not starchy, despite being a (legume) tuber. Man do the little ones ever taste good. Yum, yum! Thanks for reminding me to buy some more! It's apparently rich in inulin, rather than RS, and is thus a good complement to starchy raw Paleo foods like chestnuts, green or semi-ripe plantains, green bananas, chuño http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu%C3%B1o, chufas and others that Iguana generously shared with us.

Jicama (prounounced HIH-ka-ma) (sometimes called "yam bean") is a root vegetable which is not at all starchy. The texture is somewhere between an apple and a raw potato. It has a mild, refreshing flavor. It is usually eaten raw, but can also be used in cooked dishes.

Carbs in Jicama
by Laura Dolson
lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/jicama.htm

One of the interesting things about jicama is that this one food single-handedly dispels the notion that all tubers and legumes are inedible raw. No one who tries a small, fresh jicama will ever believe that Paleofantasy again.

OMG, you mentioned figs too. MMMMM, fresh figs, yum, yum.

Ah, so you had the dry eyes too, eh? I didn't know that so many folks were experiencing that. I guess I lucked out in that department.

I think what we are all realizing and have been leaning towards is to not attach to any dogmas and to understand that health and diet, like life, are dynamic and in constant flux.  its a learning process to know what is best for you and how to adjust in relation to who you are, what you have been through, what has worked before, what hasn't, but also not be to stubborn in any direction.

Amen to that!

Thanks for sharing, Jessica.

Van, You could answer all your own questions if you did one of the gut microbiome tests, like the American Gut Project one. If it comes out great then you could become a raw VLC hero, maybe internationally famous!

Yup, meat-heavy cultures tended to eat things like high meat (which, as Eric pointed out, was prepared in a mostly anaerobic way, not aerobic like Aajonus thought, and thus the bacteria could survive in the mostly anaerobic colon) stomach contents, intestines, cultured fish, and other unusual foods that most VLCers do not eat, and do not even consider necessary, unfortunately. Like it or not, when it comes down to a choice between those foods and traditional starchy plant foods, most people will go with the latter.

Are you aware that all predators eat fresh raw stomach contents, brains, liver and hides that contain starch, including somewhat resistant animal starch that can apparently make it to the colon, and glycans? If not, read DuckDodgers' fascinating articles on that (they discuss humans, but apply to all predators), which I think I linked to before but maybe didn't sufficiently highlight:

Disrupting Paleo: Inuit and Masai Ate Carbs and Prebiotics, Part 1
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html
"as I mentioned above, glycans tend to be resistant to digestion and can act as prebiotics with all sorts of health benefits that are just beginning to be discovered."

Disrupting Paleo: Inuit and Masai Ate Carbs and Prebiotics, Part 2
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-masai-carbs-prebiotics.html

So, yeah, someone can feed their gut bugs if they hunt all their own meat and eat well-fed fresh raw animals, nose-to-tail, but how many people can do that year-round nowadays? Wouldn't it be easier to do what the inland Inuit did and eat some raw Eskimo potato http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_potato, or the closest thing we can get to that, at least now and then? You're right that there's so much more to learn about all this and I'm all ears. Slainte!

[jessica]

I never had dry eyes just kidney pain, dark circles, unappeasable appetite, minor mood and energy issues...I never could hold out so much through that thank god for making fruits and honey so delectable

I totally think someone hit the nail on the head with appropriately feeding the gut biome, especially because the microorganisms that live inside us and that we coexist with can change much more rapidly, so while our paleo ancestors MAY have eaten way less carbs, we probably have different gut biomes and needs because the microorganisms in our guts have evolved along with us. ,

I consider it like feeding a compost pile, you need a lot of different inputs, although not everyone needs exactly the same thing.   so while potatoes may never work for me in any form, jicama is amazing, at least right now, who knows, I am not worried about falling into bad health again because I am willing to be flexible.

[PaleoPhil]

thank god for making fruits and honey so delectable

Amen again!

[Hanna]

HI Phil,
Thanks.

wouldn't it be easier and more practical to persuade Instinctos and raw Paleoists to try eating more Instincto-type starchy foods (from plant and/or animal sources), such as liver, chufas

The trouble with chufas is that although they are tasty they are not a pleasure to chew on (at least not for me) even if soaked in water. And indeed, they seem to be highly abrasive:

Dr Macho's study finds that baboons today eat large quantities of C4 tiger nuts (…) Tiger nuts, which are rich in starches, are highly abrasive in an unheated state. Dr Macho suggests that hominins' teeth suffered abrasion and wear and tear due to these starches. The study finds that baboons' teeth have similar marks giving clues about their pattern of consumption.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm

And the wear and tear of teeth seems to be a common cause of death in animals.

[TylerDurden]

Yet another reason to avoid resistant starch!

[Hanna]

Well, I'll try to puree them. This should be possible according to a recipe I found for "Horchata de Chufa". However, to puree is not Instincto, at least not Instincto Iguana-style.

[van]

Maybe you could just use a fine Stainless steel shredder,, I don't know,  never seen one yet.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, Horchata de Chufa is another raw option I read about and that Iguana mentioned. Maybe he could share some tips. Reportedly, you can also just soak and/or dry them to make them easier to chew, if you don't have a doctrinal prohibition against doing that.

One of the more knowledgeable raw food experts, John Kohler, grew and ate raw chufas. Here he is with another fellow named Gene who grew chufas:

Growing Yacon, Chufa Nuts and Tall Purslane at the Local Community Garden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtS1QO4qfLg&list=LLdy2jnwF9RpCI9YRQDVBBng&index=55
Starting at 3:01
Here John says they have a starchy, nutty, rich flavor when raw-dried that he enjoys a lot.

November Harvest: Chufa Nuts and Kakai Hulless Pumpkin Seeds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llQZBMazvYY
Starting at 4:19
John ate one fresh and said the taste of fresh ones is weird, yet delicious. Gene said he didn't like the work involved in harvesting them, but John seems interested in continuing to grow them.

"My verdict? Chufa tubers are delicious. Raw, they have both the texture and the taste of coconut."  - Alan Carter, http://scottishforestgarden.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/chufa-tigernut

"We have a few small areas in New Brunswick [Canada] mostly along the St John River where chufa, groundnuts and woundwort all grow in some of the fertile floodplains." - 1left, http://scottishforestgarden.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/chufa-tigernut

I can't imagine that chufa rhizomes growing in Canada would be good to eat, if they really are chufas, but who knows. Uh oh, groundnuts were mentioned. I'll bet Tyler won't approve of those either. 

Here's more info on chufa and two other sedges that are edible raw from Green Deane, another knowledgeable guy:
http://www.eattheweeds.com/cyperus-esculentus-rotundus-for-lunch-2
- "They are excellent raw right out of the ground"
- "All [true] sedge seeds are edible, according to Ray Mears and [Professor] Gordon Brown."

Hmm, if that's correct, then the seeds are edible too.

Here's a Stone Age Eurasian and American source of resistant starch:

Young shoots in spring can be eaten raw or cooked. Its pollen can be eaten as flour in bread, mush or pancakes. The seeds can be parched and consumed or ground and used like flour. The large, horizontal rhizomes roots can be eaten raw or cooked. Indians dried them in the sun then pounded them into flour. The estimated food value is 8% sugar — making it sweeter than the cattail –  5.5% starch 1% protein.

The bulrush, and other edible rushes in the same family (Scirpus validus, SKIR-pus VAL-ih-duh,  Scirpus  acutus, SKIR-pus uh-KYOO-tuhs)  are found throughout North America. The bulrush itself is native across the southern United States to California north to Oregon and south to Argentina and Chile. It’s also found in Illinois, Hawaii, the Cook Islands and Easter Island, where it arrived some 30,000 years ago.

Bulrush Bonanza
Green Deane
http://www.eattheweeds.com/bulrush-bonanza

[van]

leads me to believe the acorns the indians here in Ca. collected, soak, mashed, cooked might also be a source or RS.  It supposedly was their fall to food when times were lean?

[van]

Yet another reason to avoid resistant starch!

  Tyler, can't we take a more 'let's wait and see' attitude?

[JeuneKoq]

About chufas the ones you buy in stores are generally dehydrated and even after they've been soaked they remain quite wrinkled and dry-ish. I've never eaten a fresh chufa nut but from the pictures I've seen and from Phil's linked videos they look quite nice and tasty 

[JeuneKoq]

Nothing to do with this:

[JeuneKoq]

Reminds me of how dried-out apricot, even after it's been soaked, looks and taste nothing like the real deal.

[Hanna]

I pureed the soaked chufas with a hand-held blender and then passed them through a sieve. However, somehow chufas are tastier for me if I chew the whole chufas.

Phil, it seems to be a perfectly natural thing to wear out one's teeth given that this limits the lifespan of herbivores such as elephants. Iguana won't help in this regard  . Moreover, I'm convinced that our teeth and jawbones are no longer "designed" to live on a raw food diet. Which is one of the reasons that a (plant based) raw food diet such as Instincto that even rejects "mechanical denaturation" is heavily dependent on companies such as Orkos that imports selected foods from all over the world. Provided, of course, the diet is practiced in a healthy way that doesn't damage health and teeth via acidic fruit, abrasive foods, foods high in antinutrients etc.

[PaleoPhil]

leads me to believe the acorns the indians here in Ca. collected, soak, mashed, cooked might also be a source or RS.  It supposedly was their fall to food when times were lean?

Good inference, yes, and acorns were the "staple crop" of Northern California hunter gatherers, according to this paper: http://ir.minpaku.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10502/352/1/SES09_006.pdf

If you dig around you'll find that every traditional human society had a source of RS, even the Eskimos and Masai, which Duckdodgers wrote about.

Phil, it seems to be a perfectly natural thing to wear out one's teeth given that this limits the lifespan of herbivores such as elephants.

Yes, and even Eskimo women reportedly wore out their teeth chewing rawhides, which BTW are another source of RS and glycans, IIRC from Duckdodgers' articles.

I just thought that since Iguana eats chufas he might have some tips on how to do so without wearing your teeth.

I agree that rejecting all forms of processing, even traditional ones, is unproven and likely unwise in the longer term, especially in the current societies that don't have easy access to many of the traditional foods of the ancient past. I don't adhere to Instincto rules on that. I also think that strictly adhering to purist notions re: processing and rawness while ignoring other important aspects of foods, such as their content of RS, glycans, mucins, inulin, etc. is not supported by the growing evidence.

People adhering to purist notions like that can fool themselves into thinking they are doing well even as problems begin to arise at the microscopic level because they feel good and don't check more objective measures than their own feelings, such as their gut flora balance and variety, basal temp., mid-day temp., fasting blood glucose, resting heart rate, .... GCB and his wife are a couple of prominent examples. GCB has added bee brood to his diet, which contain animal sources of starch, including RS when consumed raw or with certain traditional forms of processing, such as drying, for example.

Re: drying of chufas and other foods, if it's done below 140F it preserves some RS, and if it's done low enough, it actually increases the RS content, though perhaps that could be due mainly or solely to the fact that the food has lower water content and is thus more concentrated. I find that foods that aren't very moist can be dried even at room temperature or in the fridge. Potatoes can be freeze-dried in the freezer. I usually find foods to be tastier when dried, such as beef jerky, for example.

[Iguana]

Phil, it seems to be a perfectly natural thing to wear out one's teeth given that this limits the lifespan of herbivores such as elephants. Iguana won't help in this regard  . Moreover, I'm convinced that our teeth and jawbones are no longer "designed" to live on a raw food diet.

Why our teeth and jawbones, and only them? What about the other components of our bodies? Maybe we “are no longer "designed" to live on a raw food diet”, then? That is precisely why we do the experiment to see what happens if we live exclusively on a raw paleo diet.

Which is one of the reasons that a (plant based) raw food diet such as Instincto that even rejects "mechanical denaturation" is heavily dependent on companies such as Orkos that imports selected foods from all over the world.

We are not dependent at all of Orkos or whatever commercial company! For example JDD and his family never order anything from Orkos, and they have been on “instincto” diet since the very beginning in the mid sixties for him and a few years later for his wife. They are far from being the only “instinctos” averse to buying food from Orkos. Myself seldom order food from Orkos, specially since I live in Portugal as they don’t send fresh products here. I could find suitable raw paleo foods everywhere I’ve been, and I traveled a lot including twice around the world; I also used to live for long periods in Sri lanka.

Once again, in Lausanne I had to buy lamb and horse meat imported from New Zealand and Australia, as well as seafood imported from France. People on common cooked diet also generally eat plenty of foods imported form all over the world, by the way.

Defining the “instincto” as “plant based” is inappropriate since the proportion of plants against animal products is undefined and varies widely between individuals and their current needs.   

Provided, of course, the diet is practiced in a healthy way that doesn't damage health and teeth via acidic fruit, abrasive foods, foods high in antinutrients etc.

I eat acidic fruits only occasionally and in limited amounts.

About chufas, I haven’t eaten any since 10 or 15 years and I had no more than perhaps 1 kg of them once or twice only! They were dried ones from Orkos, I’ve never seen any fresh one as shown on the photos posted by JeuneKoq. It’s clear that dried foods are a makeshift substitute of the fresh or blet product.   

I googled what jicama is and I remember well having eaten some quite often, but I can’t recall where.

Anyway, we should look at the whole picture and avoid focusing so much on any specific food or compounds such as resistant starch or insects. Each foodstuff is only a small fraction of the normal human food range, even if insects and fibers are a component of all hunters-gatherers and apes diet and therefore should be an intrinsic part of any paleo diet..

Of course, enthomophagy is repellent for most civilized Westerners, but this should not be a reason to reject it and to avoid speaking about it. In the sixties, eating raw meat, raw fish and raw eggs was even more weird, foolish and disgusting to most of us, poor civilized people. Nevertheless, GCB was not afraid to experiment it with his whole family and to publicly report  their results from 1973 on, after 8 years of meticulous systematic research and observations. It was in conference at Lausanne and I was there with my parents.

BTW, he won’t answer here, he thought he made it clear in his last post. But he asked me to transmit this to you all: “What constitutes instincotherapy is the rules one has to learn and comply with to re-establish an optimal operation of our alimentary instinct in artificial circumstances. It’s not the simple act to obey to our instinct, but to know how to decrypt what instinct we still have left and how to apply it in modern conditions. Unfortunately, the word “instinctotherapy” may have the drawback to refer exclusively to instinct without referring to any form of training, which can  perhaps be misleading.”

To Van: “Van speaks of satiety and “stop”, he’s not very far from the instincto, at least for fat. And for meat he limits himself, like us. I fail to see what disturbs him in our stance, except that we don’t reject a priori any food class.

Being disturbed by one’s urine smell is a form of instinct. Cats diligently smell their excrement after each bowel movement and it is true that some problems of overload or even enzyme deficiencies can be recognized. But it is not a fine tuning! An overload is marked in the urine only when it really overflows”. 

To GS: He appreciates your open mind; he feels you’re not stubborn.
 
Hanna, are you content with both of my previous answers to your questions and your request? 

[Hanna]

Defining the “instincto” as “plant based” is inappropriate since the proportion of plants against animal products is undefined and varies widely between individuals and their current needs. 

Instincto is usually a "high fruit diet“ and of course a plant based diet as confirmed by GCB in this very forum and you know it! Why are you so dishonest? Or does wishful thinking distort your perception of reality?

Quote GCB:

You forget the statistics which have been done for example on chimpanzee’s diet in nature: the fruit share represents about two thirds, that of sheets and roots a quarter, and the remainder consists of proteins (oilseeds, meat and insects). However, the alimentary instinct’s experiment shows that humans come substantially at the same proportions simply by listening to their instinct ¬ subject to the few rules I developed to restore as far as possible an adequate nutritional environment.

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully/msg37786/?PHPSESSID=i144902f4cspgof5l11g1ad1q1#msg37786

The avocados, kakis etc. you eat are not native to Portugal or France, not even to Africa. But we had this discussion already, and I won’t repeat it. See for example:

Quote GCB:

I indeed have never seen the occurrence of dental problems in a context of tropical fruits consumed within the instincto rules. It’s one of the reasons that made me think we are originally adapted to tropical fruits, and that fruits the agricultural techniques enable us to have in colder areas must rather be seen as substitutes. It is obviously different for bilberries and forest strawberries, which are still 100% wild.
I have consequently integrated in the practical instincto rules that we should as far as possible have a choice of tropical fruits (...)

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/instincto-debunker-debunking/msg40858/#msg40858

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/instinctos-tropical-paradise/

Hanna, are you content with both of my previous answers to your questions and your request? 

No, but I’m tired of this discussion. Sorry, alliesthetic stop!

[Iguana]

Instincto is usually a "high fruit diet“ and of course a plant based diet as confirmed by GCB in this very forum and you know it! Why are you so dishonest? Or does wishful thinking distort your perception of reality?

Well, that's insulting. So, according to you, I’m dishonest because I failed to perceive a complete equivalence between the wording “plant based” and the fact that in most cases (“usually”) we eat a lot of plants (fruits). I can be mistaken, but it doesn’t make me dishonest.

And by the way I do not necessarily agree with every word GCB said or wrote. 

No, but I’m tired of this discussion. Sorry, alliesthetic stop!

I can understand that. In that case, you could at least have thanked me for my efforts to satisfy your request and to answer your question, saying that you disagree but won’t discuss any further.

When moderators find the title of a thread unacceptable or misleading, it’s a common practice for them in most forums to change such a title without even asking the consent of the original poster. So, if I reverted to a title you suggested, it was not out of obligation, but to please you.

You are nagging and being rude. Calm down, Hanna! 

[goodsamaritan]

This thread is amazing.  Thank you for your patience and dedication, Iguana!

Thank you to all the participants!