Author Topic: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health  (Read 149695 times)

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Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #275 on: September 15, 2014, 03:13:26 am »
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too bad it's in German, anyone care to give a general idea in english what's said.

Not much, because I know nothing for sure.

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I don't know what you mean by stone. 
I didn't eat the meat stored in the fridge for months (because I didn't eat any meat), therefore the meat became hard like stone.

I always ate very little meat compared to what others (e. g. instinctos) eat. I have never been a "big eater".

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #276 on: September 15, 2014, 07:43:38 am »
A HCLF member of the Mark's Daily Apple forum has become so inundated with questions and pleas for help from chronic VLCers (granted, they aren't rawists) that she created a link to a spreadsheet of her diet. More and more people there, and even at the Low Carb Friends forum, are adding back carbs into their diets, including starchy plant foods. A Carnivore forum changed its name after more and more people started developing problems on VLC, including the forum owner, and the activity dwindled. The ZIOH forum dwindled from over a thousand members down to around 100, the last I checked some time ago. A moderator on a ketogenic diet forum reported improvements when he increased his intake of resistant starch:
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/08/australian-reaction-ketogenic.html#comment-645468 (see the comment at August 19, 2014 at 08:59).

It's more evidence that the problems we've seen here over the last few years are only the tip of the iceberg. If anyone is still unaware of them, I've already posted plenty about them in this forum. I predict that there will be lots more to come as more chronic VLCers experience serious longer-term problems, though with luck, maybe many will start adding back carbs and prebiotics in time to avoid the worst problems.

More and more info has been coming out that LC advocates don't talk about--such as that some cancer cells and fungi can feed off of ketones, not just glucose, and that not all cancers respond well to ketogenic diets.

There were early warning signs about the problems years ago when GCB's wife died of cancer and later when people doing the LCHF "Optimal Diet" started developing stomach and colon cancers, yet many LCers dismissed it.  http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/diets/optimal-diet

There were so many other clues too--Bear Stanley getting throat cancer (and blaming it on some broccoli his mother made him eat as a child  l) ), Vilhjalmur Stefansson dying of his third stroke after 7 years of a meat-heavy diet, Stefansson himself reporting that traditional Eskimos aged rapidly, an autopsy of Dr. Atkins showing he had "a history of heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Atkins_(nutritionist), and on and on.

Part of the problem seems to be that many people do the lowest carb early versions of the OD or Atkins or Primal Blueprint that are intended to be temporary, until one gets relatively lean and calms down the immune system, and then instead of adding back foods rich in digestible and resistant carbs down the road, they stick with VLC, sometimes even zero starch or zero carb, for too long. They figure if LC is good, then VLC or even no carb must be better, and since they feel good, why not stick with it indefinitely. But then problems develop years down the road. Forewarned is forearmed.

Another part of the problem was that early Paleoanthropological research focused on evidence of meat eating, because the bones of animals were so easily found. Since then, more sophisticated technology is revealing that Stone Agers ate plenty of plant foods, including starchy plant foods, even Neanderthals, which Tyler posted some interesting articles about.

There's also the problem for some of the self-fulfilling prophecy that Tyler wrote about, which can become a vicious cycle (avoid carbs, which worsens carb tolerance, which seems to further justify avoiding carbs, ...):
It is a common characteristic of people that when they turn to ZC diets, that their whole body's digestive system changes in fundamental ways(re different enzymes/bacteria being needed etc.) so that they then lose their ability to digest carbs properly. The result is that they then claim that all carbs are evil. I had the same experience when I went VLC(hardly any carbs at all) for many months at a time. I would develop minor side-effects from eating carbs or not be able to properly digest them - of course, as soon as I went back to eating a diet slightly higher in carbs, those issues vanished quickly and completely.
Unfortunately, not everyone's issues vanish as quickly and completely as they did for Tyler when carbs are added back, which can mislead folks into thinking that they should avoid carbs forever and that maybe they just aren't genetically designed for them, instead of digging deeper and trying to figure out and fix the underlying problems that are causing the carb sensitivity.

I think eating plenty of raw foods may help reduce the risks from VLC, but not eliminate them. Plus, in the case of underweight and eating disorders, raw diets tend to be even harder for many people to get adequate calories from in this fast-paced age. FWIW, There's even one anecdote (which I'll share in the interests of open-minded examination--not likely to be popular here, sorry) in which a guy who has been tracking dietary effects on his microbiome found that including some cooked and cooled starchy foods in his diet provided better results than eating only raw starches. It's a whole new field of science, so who knows what we may learn.

There do seem to be some cases where VLC/ketogenic diets can be therapeutic, at least in the short run (ketogenic diets to treat epilepsy are typically not done for more than 3 years by Johns Hopkins, for example), and the new information about the microbiome and prebiotics seems to be leading to safer versions of it, but it's probably best to be monitored by a physician while doing it, and to be aware of the early signs and symptoms of problems.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 10:01:43 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #277 on: September 15, 2014, 03:37:21 pm »
Let them taste durian and they will embrace these carbs! :)
No time to do vlc when durian is around.
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Offline fireflysea

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #278 on: September 17, 2014, 12:58:44 pm »
Lolol "no time for vlc when durian is around"....that is for sure. oh durian. <3 <3 <3

Offline Inger

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #279 on: September 17, 2014, 04:13:49 pm »
Durian is divine.
I would still never eat it in winter (Europe) or in fact... not much at all because I live so far north
too much sugar for my latitude

Offline fireflysea

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #280 on: September 18, 2014, 01:05:57 pm »
That's true Inger, it always feels best to eat based on where one lives in my experience.
I'm in the southeastern US right now somewhat close to the equater soooooo durian isn't like toooo far off haha. Oh jeez though, once I start eating it I don't want to stop lol and it's quite caloric, and expensive. Lol
But so so delicious

Offline van

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #281 on: September 19, 2014, 09:34:49 am »
Yes it's uncanny how seemingly addictive it is.  I do believe in my reading I came across some articles that talked about some of the compounds found in Durian that elicit a high..
    When I have traveled to the east, and have found it readily available, It's all I want.   So it's hard to say if it's beneficial for me or not, because I simply eat so much.  I have read it does pose a high insulin load for some, and hence is not advised for diabetics.     But I think if I had one last meal to eat, I would chose it over any food, period. 

Offline Brad462

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #282 on: September 19, 2014, 10:34:40 am »
i am eating pizza right now!  is durian really that good?    :)
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Offline fireflysea

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #283 on: September 19, 2014, 01:39:26 pm »
I could totally see that durian could give a type of high, the first time I really are and enjoyed it I definitely felt super energized and dancey and giggly lol.

And though they are very different flavors, durian definitely beats pizza by like infinite amounts lol. I haven't had pizza since I was like 14 lol but from what I remember...durian allllll the way :)

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #284 on: September 19, 2014, 05:28:27 pm »
plus durian comes in many varieties... and i like them all...
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Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #285 on: September 21, 2014, 03:35:27 am »
Thank you for the overview, Phil. When I ate meat regularly, I didn’t eat (much) less carbs than before and never VLC. Maybe I ate a bit less prebiotics. However, I guess something else was the problem.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #286 on: September 21, 2014, 09:40:48 am »
i am eating pizza right now!  is durian really that good?    :)

Pizza seems to be a learned desire through advertising.

Yes, durian is that good, people go out of their way to buy it.  And really spend for it.  They line up for it. 

When my kids were small at 5, 3 and 2... my 3 year old boy felt the partitioning of durian amongst them siblings was unfair, he cried out in a raging tantrum and swiped all the chinaware (with the durians) off the table.  I had to smack his bottom until he awoke from his rage.
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Offline Joy2012

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #287 on: September 23, 2014, 12:15:42 pm »
A fair amount of people cannot stand durians. Not to pick a fight...just a fact.

It is like the funky fermented tufu in China. Most Chinese love it. Many foreigners cannot stand the smell.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 12:22:20 pm by Joy2012 »

Offline van

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #288 on: September 23, 2014, 02:10:09 pm »
most who don't like it eat a lot of processed foods, and alcohol or beer drinkers are known not to like it.   but of course not a rule.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #289 on: September 23, 2014, 04:11:22 pm »
Nice hypothesis there Van,

I think liking durian is partly genetic.  The first time I smelled durian I searched for it in the house until I found it.  I was maybe 10 years old and I instantly loved it. 

My 3 kids all like durian.
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Offline Joy2012

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #290 on: September 24, 2014, 04:00:01 am »
My father loved durians. I don't. My father drank wine a little bit. I don't. He ate "normal." I am more of a health nut. Haha. Let us drop the debate.

Offline van

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #291 on: September 24, 2014, 04:11:05 am »
Joy I'll be curious that when you've truly found your way into raw pale...  what ever that really might mean, whether your tastes change.  Also there are Durians and then there are Durians.    I know I can smell what other's find objectional,  but it's not offensive.  A also have this 'theory' that the smell can heavily influence the idea of it being tasty  ( and again, I'm speaking of the really good Durians).  Ok, over and out

Offline Joy2012

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #292 on: September 24, 2014, 11:35:32 am »
Durians are too expensive anyway--in Texas.

Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #293 on: September 28, 2014, 05:00:42 pm »
Concerning meat and bee brood, I’m a bit concerned now because of
(1) lead fragments in wild game meat (see http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/leadinfo.htm and  http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2700&q=452732&depNav_GID=1633)
(2) pesticide pollution of bee brood (which is fed with pollen).

(In German: http://frohkost.blogspot.de/2013/10/wie-isst-du-fisch-fleisch-innereien.html see "Ergänzung")
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 05:14:50 pm by Hanna »

Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #294 on: May 10, 2015, 03:59:35 pm »
In June 2014 I wrote:

Quote
Well, to be honest, I have reduced (and currently cancelled) my mammal meat consumption again for several reasons.

In September 2014 I wrote:

Quote
I will certainly eat meat again in the future, but for now, I haven’t been motivated to do so. (…) The main reason (why I stopped to eat meat) in short: a return of allergic symptoms which stopped after I had stopped to eat meat.

Another feedback from me: I (still) don’t eat mammal meat anymore and I’m pleased with the results so far. For example, I haven't noticed pollen allergy symptoms anymore. I do eat shellfish and fish regularly, sometimes bone marrow, but virtually no mammal meat, liver or the like anymore.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #295 on: May 10, 2015, 07:40:28 pm »
Congrats. There are lots of apparently healthy seafood-eating cultures, such as the Sentinelese that we coincidentally recently discussed, so you're in good company there. What else do you eat?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #296 on: May 11, 2015, 12:50:45 am »
Hi Phil,

- vegetables, including greens, seaweed, lentils, carrot juice etc., on a nearly daily basis,
- nuts, which are a staple food of mine, including coconuts and seeds (such as shelled hempseed),
- fruit at least several times a week, although I don’t eat much (sugar from) sweet fruit and don’t eat any acidic fruit,
- almost no honey,
- animal food at least several times a week, although mostly in small portions,
- high quality fats, which is much more important to me than spending my money on sweet expensive tropical fruits,
- no mixing of different foods,
- exclusively raw food since 2004.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 02:17:30 am by Hanna »

Offline kalo

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #297 on: May 19, 2015, 09:42:44 am »
Sir, I just tried to eat from the plant world the last week and paid the price greatly. It is like their toxins spread into my blood and my body sags. My stomach feels so twisted, my thoughts turned very depressed, I feel like I lost all my progress. I am a fool for being scared out of eating as a carnivore but now I also feel anger. Do not spread propaganda, we are all unique and I see others who stand up for ZC shut down.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #298 on: May 19, 2015, 10:23:23 am »
Sir, I just tried to eat from the plant world the last week and paid the price greatly. It is like their toxins spread into my blood and my body sags. My stomach feels so twisted, my thoughts turned very depressed, I feel like I lost all my progress. I am a fool for being scared out of eating as a carnivore but now I also feel anger. Do not spread propaganda, we are all unique and I see others who stand up for ZC shut down.

I'm sorry you feel that ZC is being shut down.
Invite all ZC practitioners to post more on ZC section... that is why it is there.
My wife is having teeth problems and I'm pointing her to very low carb and temporary zc.
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Offline Hanna

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Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #299 on: May 24, 2015, 06:43:06 pm »
Sir, I just tried to eat from the plant world the last week and paid the price greatly. It is like their toxins spread into my blood and my body sags. My stomach feels so twisted, my thoughts turned very depressed, I feel like I lost all my progress.

To find the „right“ raw plants to eat you should make use of the alliesthetic signals which were described bei G. C. Burger. Do you know his theories?

 

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