Okay so should I try to include carbs in my diet?

[Sorentus]

I always had a severe sweet tooth, I LOVE sugar and I know that I can't have honey raw or even fermented because it cause me stomach burn. I don't know why but it does so that's a clear sign that it's doing me more arm then good. Then fruits makes me bloated like hell so then I have coconut sugar and I had blueberry and black cherry juice left from months ago when I was still not intolerant to everything and couldn't eat to drink some black cherry juice (of course now I feel discomfort and I had fat 2hours prior)

I feel every time I have carbs of any kind that I am setting myself back significantly.

Now I hear so many bad things about sugar but I also hear many bad things about going ZC so what to do?

I'm afraid that sugar will cause inflammation, pancreas problem, and liver stress and overall digestive stress but then some people say that ZC can actually cause stress, so should I avoid it? Atm the ONLY plant food I seem to do well with are papayas(yes they actually allowed me to have a bowel movement without the use of magnesium). So my only source of safe carb for me would be papaya.

I'll be honest, I keep finding reasons to cheat on sugar, I do it all the time and I hate myself for it, I see it as a quick cheap source for energy but then it always cause me digestive discomfort of some kind should I just go ZC except for occasional papayas?

[cherimoya_kid]

I would try P5P.  PaleoPhil has had lots of carb intolerance problems, and P5P really helps him with that.

Eating extra fat can help control carb cravings, as can taking mineral supplements like Terramin clay and dolomite, plus mineral-rich foods like seaweeds, clams, and oysters.

[LePatron7]

Maybe try all sorts of things. I've read a few of your updates, and I may be mistaken but it sounds a lot like you're having trouble. Maybe try a lot of different things and find what works.

[Sorentus]

Maybe try all sorts of things. I've read a few of your updates, and I may be mistaken but it sounds a lot like you're having trouble. Maybe try a lot of different things and find what works.

Aw you mean what I've been trying to do 24/7 for the past 11 months and losing my sleep over it?

Right now i been having fat all day every day except for some liver and i almost puked earlier from so much fat. I had to throw away 15 pound of trim and ran out of beef heart.

Im having 20 grassfed organic certified beef heart in 8hours and cant wait. Im craving meat so bad. I went to sneak in my parents stock for food and its ALL poison, either cooked, grain fed or processed or all the above.

Right now what seem to "work" is eating the most tender flesh. At first I went with ground beef and it was a digestion disaster, i recently finished 1pound i had left, over 3 days and felt bad.

So atm, its tender organs, doing ok with heart and liver. About to try brain, tongue and kidney. Fat also has a very distinct feeling. I seem to do amazing with beef heart fat and i found there is lots of different suet, some goes dry and leave a sore throst while some melt easily and some require a lot of chewing.

Papaya seem to be a super food for me right now. Low sugar, low fiber, potassium, calcium, vitamin E and lots of C and it makes me have a bowel movement effortlessly!

So this goes on for as long as i dont become intolerant to the food, usually this happen causing inflamation in my intestines, literally as if my intestine were burned.

Havent had it from raw beef yet and i would get it instantly if cooked even months after not having cookef beef.

[paper_clips43]

I love carbs! I eat tons and tons of raw sugar, fruit juice, raw honey, and of course raw fruit.
I eat spoonfuls of raw honey with my meat or sometimes even sugar when im honeyless.
I love eating raw butter and raw honey mixture

I don't know what you should do but I know what I should do and that is eat loads of sugar.
I tried low carb and its not for me. I had cravings constantly and had to fight tooth and nail not to binge. Now I never have cravings!
I am so glad my low carb days are over life is so much better with sugar.
Sugar and salt are my favorite foods

[Sorentus]

I love carbs! I eat tons and tons of raw sugar, fruit juice, raw honey, and of course raw fruit.
I eat spoonfuls of raw honey with my meat or sometimes even sugar when im honeyless.
I love eating raw butter and raw honey mixture

I don't know what you should do but I know what I should do and that is eat loads of sugar.
I tried low carb and its not for me. I had cravings constantly and had to fight tooth and nail not to binge. Now I never have cravings!
I am so glad my low carb days are over life is so much better with sugar.
Sugar and salt are my favorite foods

Omg dont tempt me, i envy you. I used to spread raw fermented honey on my meat. I dumped the rest of my juices extract in the drain earlier and stored my honey so that i cant see it. Decided to stop all sugar for good until i get better which might never happen sadly as i always get worse.

[paper_clips43]

Why do think you can't tolerate carbs?

[Sorentus]

Why do think you can't tolerate carbs?

Bad bacteria imbalance i guess and stomach burn from honey

[eveheart]

Bad bacteria imbalance i guess and stomach burn from honey

I limit carbs, but I find that I have an amount that gives me a good balance. Zero carbs are uncomfortable to me.

I never eat anything like honey because it seems too concentrated and gives me a burning feeling. Likewise, dipping meat in honey doesn't feel right in my stomach, plus my mind rebels against the meat+honey idea because it reminds me of how many people pour tomato ketchup or barbecue sauce on their meats - both of those are made with lots of sugar or honey. In general, I don't eat any super-sweet foods because they taste too sweet to me.

Personally, I do well with some variety (within reason), but I don't mix everything together at one meal, either. 

[Iguana]

i think the question should rather be:
"Why should I exclude some raw paleo foods of my diet?"
and then my answer would be:
"There's no reason to exclude any raw paleo food from your diet!"
 

[Sorentus]

i think the question should rather be:
"Why should I exclude some raw paleo foods of my diet?"
and then my answer would be:
"There's no reason to exclude any raw paleo food from your diet!"
 

Iguana i dont mean to sound disrespectful but you dont seem to aknowledge other people digestive problems. Having read your posts, you seem to think everything paleo is all ok and that antinutriment and stuff are of no concern. Some people have very severe digestive problem and just because you do very well on a well balanced diet, doesnt mean we all would.

My parents eat crap like most ppl yet they are perfectly fine and i watch all i eat or use, toothpaste,soap etc... And im very sick.

[jessica]

I had to limit carbs for about a year while my endocrine system worked its self out and my metabolism returned, and yes, a lot of the destruction that occurred from them was candida/gut imbalance that probably stemmed from bad diet/lifestyle habits plus teenage drinking and then where multiplied by binge drinking, binge eating, blood sugar imbalance from that etcetcetc.  I am back to being able to tolerate carbs, but there is a definite limit and there are weeks I cant even think of eating them, and then weeks I eat tons of dates or figs.  so yeah, if you are feeling like they are doing more harm them good, at least you know honey is not the answer right now, don't eat honey. 

I think y our body is probably closer to being in ketosis anyway so maybe eating more protein gives you liver enough fuel to convert some glucose for your brain.  that said, you don't have any fat on you to pull from so you have to be sure to get enough dietarily....I would still suggest trying some digestive stimulants, like lemon juice, celery juice, something bitter you can tolerate, and salts with your fats to help them digest, and eating enough but not overboard.  I would really suggest switching up fats too,  fish, shrimps or even making lightly cooked fish broths/soups etcetc, see if there isn't a form that doesn't cause issues. that would also help to diversify your protiens, I think too much arginine can be destructive, if you have bacterial issues you need lycine and such, which is more in dairy. if you do well on colostrum you might do well with raw whey, if you can source it.  it ferments itself pretty readily and I think that helps it to be digestable.

[PaleoPhil]

Honey is one of the most acidic (not to be confused with acidifying) foods (which is one reason it does a good job killing pathogenic bacteria), which can be tough on the stomachs of people with suboptimal digestion, especially if eaten on an empty stomach.  There are plenty of other carby food options. Since papaya works for you, you might want to try other tropical fruits, when and if you're ready and if you haven't already.

I learned one possible reason why GCB might be right about tropical fruits being better than avg--they tend to contain saturated fats, rather than PUFAs.

[goodsamaritan]

Go and eat various raw paleo diet carb sources.
Go out of your way and taste taste taste the ones that work for you.
I follow all the fruit seasons in my country.
Every month there is always something new in season.

Also go and find all the resistant starch you can find as Paleo Phil talked about so much.

[PaleoPhil]

Indeed, GS, you're right to hint that RS can help with metabolizing carbs, as it feeds GI bacteria that then help with the production or absorption of SCFAs, vitamin B6, zinc, Mg, calcium and other nutrients that assist in metabolizing carbs and blunting post-meal BG. And resistant starch is just one of multiple prebiotic elements of raw Paleo foods. (If anyone is interested in the research on this, it can be found pretty easily by Googling on any of these nutrients and "resistant starch").

One reason RS is an especially important prebiotic in Paleo circles is that raw RS intake (and raw animal starch intake) happens to be much lower in the diets of many "Paleo" (and SAD) dieters than in those of Stone Age ancestors (which accumulating scientific research has been documenting, even among Neanderthals--see the study that Tyler helpfully linked to at http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/humans-naturaloptimal-habitat/msg120122/#msg120122 -- whom some scientists mistakenly assumed in the past were essentially carnivorous), because starch phobia is so common in Paleo circles, due in part to the promulgation of the myth that all starch converts to sugar and that all sugar = poison at any intake level. On the bright side, raw Paleo dieters likely consume more prebiotics than cooked Paleoists, because raw plant and raw animal foods contain the maximum levels of prebiotics. This is one reason why prebiotics are such a good selling point for the raw aspect of raw Paleo.

It's strange that no RPDers seem to be taking advantage of this prebiotic selling point in persuading others about RPD. It's also odd that cooked Paleo/Primal Blueprint/LC dieters talk about raw foods containing the highest prebiotic levels, and then go right on cooking the hell out of most of their foods, over-relying on the small amounts of retrograde prebiotics they can manage via cooling and reheating.

Another nice thing that the gut bug nutrients like SCFAs and B6 do is make the body more resilient to insults from toxins, such as from plant toxins/antinutrients and cooking toxins. This presumably could enable one to eat some cooked non-Paleo foods to be sociable without suffering significant ill effects as a result.

Another factor in the low intakes of RS in modern diets is that domesticated plants tend to contain less RS and other prebiotics than the wild foods of the past. Thus, it's not easy to consume as much as our ancestors did.

I have noticed that multiple Paleo/LC dieters who assumed the were getting enough RS and other prebiotics in their diets weren't getting anywhere near as much as Stone Agers reportedly did, and I have yet to see a single Paleo or LC dieter guess right about which foods contain plenty of RS. They typically guess foods that are rich in inulin. Inulin is another beneficial prebiotic, but it's separate and distinct from RS. Diversity in prebiotics enables bacteria cross-feeding that produces synergistic benefits.

Some LCers who thought they were super healthy also found that their GI microbiomes were subpar when they got them tested. So even if the body feels great, the GI bugs (Old Friends) may not be so well off. Microbes reportedly account for around 90% of human cells. Not feeding those 90% well doesn't make sense.

It occurred to me that beneficial bacteria might also help with the digestion of fats, so I just Googled it, and sure enough:

"Fungi and bacteria may secrete lipases to facilitate nutrient absorption from the external medium (or in examples of pathogenic microbes, to promote invasion of a new host)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipase

Probiotics are also important, to help increase the number of good microbes in the gut to eat the prebiotics, as Dr. BG pointed out:

Taking PS for some (like ANYONE WHO HAS HAD A SINGLE ROUND OF ANTIBIOTICS or eats CAFO antibiotic-laced meat/dairy)… is like a zookeeper feeding EMPTY ZOO CAGES. http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html#comment-548895

[Sorentus]

Yeah I did try the resistant starch and also many probiotics, soil organism and stuff. I get lost in the symptoms though, can't ever tell if it's doing me good or bad, as just about anything I give to my body affects me negatively.

Right now beef has "YET" to cause me severe inflammation although I just bought 200$ worth of beef heart today and I been having significant inflammation like feeling in my colon(hopefully its not the beef) so I'm getting prepared for the "lol gotta toss 200$ worth of food in the garbage and find a new food I can tolerate for a few days before buying new food again"

Btw Phil I did try FMT but only once as I couldn't get a trust worthy donor, I decided to go for the "just eat the poop method" rather then colon enema since I couldn't even get the poop to get inside me. I ended up feeling much sicker from it so I didn't renew, wish I knew someone willing but finding healthy people to donate poop is harder then it sound.

I wish life was as simple as "eat this wonderful healthy food and you'll feel good", nature is such a bitch. My health is only deteriorating slower on raw paleo then if I was eating a SAD diet.

[PaleoPhil]

Dr. "Spanish Caravan" warned against trying do-it-yourself fecal transplants:

bornagain // Nov 24, 2013 at 23:07

I’ve often wondered why one of the Paleo gods like Sisson or Devany don’t sell their shit for fecal transplants. Surely there’s a market for it.

Spanish Caravan // Nov 24, 2013 at 23:26

Bornagain, first, they’re too old, especially DeVany. You want your stool sample from a younger person who’s full of vitality and free from infections. Second, how would you know they’re healthy? They look healthy but that doesn’t mean they actually are. Looks don’t mean health. Third, most people who do fecal transplant have autoimmune issues. Autoimmunity is latent and could be asymptomatic for years before you ever become positive for antibodies. You’ll never be tested for it unless you have symptoms. So De Vany and Mark won’t qualify as a potential donor until they’ve been thoroughly vetted and have gone through Metametrix’s GI Effects stool test themselves.

The worst thing you can do is get an unhealthy stool sample; you’ll end up with more diseases. That’s why fecal transplating is for institutional use; it’s not for retail. Don’t try it at home.

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/11/chris-kresser-health.html#comment-543624

[eveheart]

Also go and find all the resistant starch you can find as Paleo Phil talked about so much.

CAUTION! Do not go and find all the resistant starch you can find. PaleoPhil never advised this, and he never posted this type of advice from others!!

With your sensitivities, go easy when you introduce anything, especially something like resistant starch! If small portions agree with your gut, try increasing your amount of RS slowly.

[PaleoPhil]

Good catch, Eveheart. I first misread that as find all the resistant starch info you can. Luckily, most folks overdosing right off the bat with RS will get a telltale signal from Mother Nature of excessive flatulence that should teach them not to do that. 

[Sorentus]

Some sources advise from RS all together if you suspect SIBO which I do.

[goodsamaritan]

There's that bit of instincto eating thing that should keep you from going  overboard in any direction (carbs, starch, protein, fat, etc.). 

You may have to tell us what's your health problem as a whole so we can understand you better.

[PaleoPhil]

Some sources advise from RS all together if you suspect SIBO which I do.

Norm Robillard was the most prominent one to warn about that, but he has since adopted a cautiously positive view about RS, including even as a possible therapeutic for SIBO :

Resistant Starch – Friend, Foe or Lover?
http://digestivehealthinstitute.org/2014/03/24/resistant-starch/

Norm is even working with Tatertot Tim and Richard Nikoley, comparing notes and anecdotal reports they have received. Time will tell. I do think that it makes sense to exercise caution, given that the microbiome and prebiotics and experiments based on them are still relatively new to most people.

Norm seems to be a decent and open-minded chap who really wants to help people. I've communicated with him a bit on the Web.

As always, YMMV and listen to your own body and learn what health metrics to check, and also get medical health exams (just be aware of the financial incentives behind drugs and surgery, of course). I have found it pays to not go just by people's opinions or how I "feel". Health metrics can be a good objective check, to avoid confirmation bias. Of course, the trick is figuring out which ones are the most informative, and for which issues.

[Sorentus]

There's that bit of instincto eating thing that should keep you from going  overboard in any direction (carbs, starch, protein, fat, etc.). 

You may have to tell us what's your health problem as a whole so we can understand you better.

Well I get digestive problem from anything I eat no food is symptom free for me, there's only a lesser evil. Beef heart atm makes me feel like I'm about to pass out worms (a war in my intestine, growling and stuff), ground beef or the less tender muscle meat makes my intestines so clogged it's indigestible(I won't have it atm). Beef fat give me heartburn sometime and digestive discomfort similar to beef heart. If you think that's bad and i should not eat that, it's by far the lesser symptoms I get. so far everything else has resulted in severe inflammation from over use of the "tolerable" foods. You can see my journal for a bigger list of symptoms.

Phil, I'm also concerned about the right bacteria to eat the RS, what if you have an overgrown of the wrong strain, I know people say that it feed the "good" guy but how can we really be so sure? My other concern is to be intolerant to the starch itself(anti-nutriment) and not the effects it play with my gut microbes. My Food intolerance are SEVERE again, ANYTHING give me negative symptoms, it's just about eating the food that cause the lesser ones, so I'm expecting RS to have negative one as well. It's why I'm living of only 3 foods, beef fat, heart and liver and turmeric to spice my liver.

It still makes no sense to me how one can be so intolerant to food that even its natural diet is having negative effects on him,  have you ever seen a beef not tolerating grass? Because that's what happening here.

It's not a parasite, it's not a virus, an infection or autoimmune disease, it's just my body saying "hey look here is food, let me attack that food rather then use it as a source of fuel"

[PaleoPhil]

I think Norm is right to be cautious. There are no guarantees in life. Time will tell.

so I'm expecting RS to have negative one as well

One of my rules is to not do anything that I expect will fail or am excessively fearful of. I've found that prophecies tend to be self-fulfilling. I've noted over the years multiple people in this and other forums saying that a certain therapy will fail, or that they are very fearful about it, then going ahead and doing it anyway, and then they usually report that it did indeed fail.

[eveheart]

Well I get digestive problem from anything I eat no food is symptom free for me, there's only a lesser evil. ... so far everything else has resulted in severe inflammation from over use of the "tolerable" foods. You can see my journal for a bigger list of symptoms.

Can you find, say, five to eleven foods to start with? Any beef part counts as one food, in the inflammation world. Lesser-evil foods might be your best bet... you'll find out. Jessica gives good suggestions, so go through her posts to you and make a list of her suggestions if your ideas come too slowly.

Now, rotate those foods for a few days, then make another list with new stuff to try and rotate that. It's okay to use published lists such as GAPS or SIBO, to get ideas, or just try foods that you read about on this forum. Make a rotation rule to help you keep track, such as only repeat a food every fourth day. Keep brief notes, but no long case studies of your reactions.

Make sure you spend as much time as possible outdoors each day. Sweep your parents' patio and clean out their garage. (If they have no patio or garage, do something else outdoors, like wash their windows.)