Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings

[edmon171]

Mixing meat and plants should be either high fat with low carb plants or low fat with starch or sugars. This is what is seen in nature, the hunter would get the fatty tissue and organs first and maybe some stomach contents and is satisfied, the scavenger is left with pieces of lean tissue stuck to the bone and is still hungry and will seek out other sources of energy, like starchy roots and sweet fruits or honey. Otherwise you are taking two fuels and one of them will be stored while the other one gets burned, a good way to put on weight. Also a good way to cause insulin sensitivity. I would think having any two types of food separately is the more natural way and probably easier on your system in general. With the exception of fermented plants and leafy greens, as this would have been available in the stomach contents of a fresh kill. I've never seen a bear catch a salmon, carry it over to a beehive, dip it in honey, and then eat it. They just eat it and worry about what else is available the next time they are hungry.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't "pour" honey. Our ancestors didn't exactly match and measure things out in precise proportions or doses, which are modern practices.

As I pointed out, a fresh raw animal carcass and various plant foods contain both carbs and proteins within them, so that in nature it's impossible to avoid mixing carbs with proteins and food combining theories are thus largely irrelevant to the natural world.

It's not a good sign if one's digestion is so poor that one can't even eat more than a microscopic amount of honey with meat.

Bee brood IS meat.

To each their own, but the original poster's question was regarding how to increase appetite, not how to avoid eating too much.

[Iguana]

 

I don't "pour" honey. Our ancestors didn't exactly match and measure things out in precise proportions or doses, which are modern practices.

I understood you mix honey and meat before ingestion,  am I wrong? All animals and our pre-fire ancestors precisely dosed everything they ate by using their olfactory and gustative senses.   

As I pointed out, a fresh raw animal carcass and various plant foods contain both carbs and proteins within them, so that in nature it's impossible to avoid mixing carbs with proteins

Yes. Probably, the formation af AGEs in the stomach occurs only in insignificant amounts in normal conditions. 

and food combining theories are thus largely irrelevant to the natural world.

In nature, there’s not so many possibilities to combine various foods because they are usually distant in space.

It's not a good sign if one's digestion is so poor that one can't even eat more than a microscopic amount of honey with meat.

I don’t eat honey with meat. I eat it alone and I have no problem digesting it. I currently can’t eat more then half a teaspoon because it’s too sweet and it triggers a mouth burning feeling; not because I can’t digest it. 

Bee brood IS meat.

Sorry for my misunderstanding of English. I thought “meat” = “viande” in French and for me it meant flesh of mammals, reptiles, marsupials and birds. Fish, shellfish, eggs, worms and insects were not “meat” for me, but perhaps it’s only a matter of language?

To each their own, but the original poster's question was regarding how to increase appetite, not how to avoid eating too much. 

Ah… but if you eat too much, then won’t your appetite eventually decrease? On the contrary, if you eat little or no food for a while, wouldn’t your appetite subsequently increase?

I would think having any two types of food separately is the more natural way and probably easier on your system in general. With the exception of fermented plants and leafy greens, as this would have been available in the stomach contents of a fresh kill. I've never seen a bear catch a salmon, carry it over to a beehive, dip it in honey, and then eat it. They just eat it and worry about what else is available the next time they are hungry.

Exactly. This way was the norm during billions of years until some hominids were “smart enough” to mix and process different foods before ingestion. 

[paper_clips43]

I suspect that you haven't  allowed time for your body to use fat as fuel..   Fruit and meat and honey will give rise to blood sugar and hence insulin.   This may 'feel' good, but I would look into long term possibilities if I were you maintaining this dietary habit.

So what do you think my body is doing with all the fat I eat?

On average I eat 2 tablespoons of coconut oil, 4-6 tablespoons of butter, and roughly 6-8 ounces of animal fat per day.
I have no symptoms of malabsorption and I find I have increased energy with the more fat I eat. If I eat low fat I have less energy. That sounds to me like my body is using fat as an energy source. It might not be my MAIN energy source although it does seem to contribute to my increased well being, confidence, and positive outlook on life.

The more calories I eat in a day the better I feel. I have tested this many many times. Eating lots of carbs helps me eat more food.

Maybe one day I might come across evidence or self experimentation that would lead me to switch to a low carb diet with fat as my fuel source. Right now I just can not believe that is healthy for me. So why do something that I can't believe is healthy?

I am not sure why we have to debate this low carb high fat issue still. It seems, In my opinion, the answer is up to the individual and comes with no reason to question others choices unless otherwise specified to do so.

All I can do is share my experience and I try to do my best not to make assumptions about other peoples diet. Even if I had a day to day count of all the foods you eat I still wouldn't even come close to having enough information to make corrections and changes for your life.

[van]

I didn't perceive that from an earlier post, believing that mainly you were mostly eating fruit, honey and meat.    Then I don't know why you wrote how you feel when you eat only fat and meat.   So many variables here.   I know I feel better when I include sea weeds and some greens.  Now whether or not that is because they are RS or not, I don't know,, could be the trace minerals or something else.    I only have read that those who include lots of carbs with lots of fats tend not to become efficient fat burners, and maybe it simply passes out of you.  And I have also read about glycation from eating fat with sugar.     For myself, the more sugar or fruit and or honey include in my diet, the more I get blood sugar swings, and I have less stable energy, unless I treat or feed myself ongoing with more sugar.       It was interesting for me to learn years ago how the principal moderator of the WAI diet (basically fruit and fat/eggs/fish) had to add white sugar to his orange juice, and not just a little sugar, and not just a little orange juice,, for him to keep fueled throughout the day.  He would take gulps some where around every twenty minutes.  I'd love to see his blood work.
     You might want to pay attention to how often you feel the need to eat sugar/honey/ fruit to feel your best.

[PaleoPhil]

Sorry, Iguana, I'm not persuaded by the food combining theory. My experience with honey has been closer to Paperclips' than yours. I haven't experienced the problems you reported, nor any other noticeable problems, when eating a tiny bit of honey or fruit at the same meal as meat. Since all animals naturally come with some carbs within their tissues in the wild, not just live bee grubs in honey hives, it's natural to eat some carbs with animal foods, and since carbs in animal tissues decrease over time and thus are lower in the meats sold at markets, and since carbs are less concentrated in the muscle meats that modern diets emphasize than in other tissues, therefore including a reasonable amount of carby food with the carb-depleted meats of food markets actually makes some good sense for those who can tolerate it well. To each his own.

[goodsamaritan]

If the problem is increasing appetite, I have found salt and salty foods to increase appetite.

[Iguana]

Sorry, Iguana, I'm not persuaded by the food combining theory. My experience with honey has been closer to Paperclips' than yours. I haven't experienced the problems you reported, nor any other noticeable problems, when eating a tiny bit of honey or fruit at the same meal as meat.

I have no problems (which ones did I report??) eating a tiny bit of honey or fruit at the same meal as meat! It’s only that I don’t pre-mix anything, thus eating each food independently one after the other, preferably waiting at least some minutes and up to one hour or two in-between (depending of the amount). Don’t we e agree?

Since all animals naturally come with some carbs within their tissues in the wild, not just live bee grubs in honey hives, it's natural to eat some carbs with animal foods, and since carbs in animal tissues decrease over time and thus are lower in the meats sold at markets, and since carbs are less concentrated in the muscle meats that modern diets emphasize than in other tissues, therefore including a reasonable amount of carby food with the carb-depleted meats of food markets actually makes some good sense for those who can tolerate it well. To each his own.

Do you buy regular commercial meat at food markets??

If the problem is increasing appetite, I have found salt and salty foods to increase appetite.

I fail to understand why someone would increase (or lessen) one’s appetite.

[TylerDurden]

Iguana, your original definition of "meat"/"viande" is absolutely correct in English.

[PaleoPhil]

Iguana, again, fresh raw wild animal/fish/insect/etc. foods contain carbs within them, so, no, I don't think it's necessary for most people to wait some minutes in between eating some meat and a tiny bit of honey or other carb.

I didn't say just "commercial meat." The carb content of any animal foods decreases over time after the kill.

If despite the key point that carbs are in all fresh raw animal foods in nature, you still think people need to wait between eating even tiny amounts of carb with protein, then perhaps we can agree to disagree. I hope you don't mind that I don't wish to debate semantics or other details endlessly.

[Hanna]

I would think having any two types of food separately is the more natural way and probably easier on your system in general. With the exception of fermented plants and leafy greens, as this would have been available in the stomach contents of a fresh kill.

… and as greens are eaten with other foods for example by apes.

I've never seen a bear catch a salmon, carry it over to a beehive, dip it in honey, and then eat it. They just eat it and worry about what else is available the next time they are hungry.

That’s how it is.  He also doesn’t carry the salmon to a beehive, eats the salmon, waits a few minutes and then eats the honey.

[Iguana]

Thanks, Tyler.

Phil, the point is that in nature we seldom find a lot of different foods at the same place and same time, unlike at home where we are in an artificial environment with plenty of different foodstuff easily available without any effort.

It’s not absolutely necessary to let a variable interlude between two foods, but it’s wise to ask oneself after having eaten something up to a point we felt we had enough of it:

- Am I still hungry?
- If yes,what other food is tempting me at the moment?
- Which one is the most appealing?
- Do I feel this other foodstuff will be ok digestion-wise with what I ate?

It’s not a matter of eating everything our instinct allow us to ingest, but to choose the food best corresponding to our current need.  It takes a certain time to check our feelings on these points.

It’s obvious to me that some foods interfere badly with the digestion of other foods. Once you got an indigestion because for example you ate bananas just after eating a good amount of meat, or durian after avocados, or avocados after almonds, or safus after meat, then you understand and you never do again such a mistake…   

The most different foods we mix in our stomach, the harder our digestion will be.   
   

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, the point is that in nature we seldom find a lot of different foods at the same place and same time, unlike at home where we are in an artificial environment with plenty of different foodstuff easily available without any effort.

Van already addressed that here:

just as likely, if you care to speculate,,,    one hunting party goes out and comes back with a fresh kill.   The tribe sits and eats, knawing  away,,,   the second hunting party comes back with a huge bee hive full of honey.   Can't you imagine how they Just might get a little honey in their mouths at the same time that they have meat in there too?   Seems likely to me that over the course of thousands of years that that very scene may have happened enough times for those peoples to make up their own mind as to whether they liked the taste combo or not. 

And an article supporting him on this was posted today here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/do-u-think-we-have-the-same-gut-bacteria-like-this-african-tribe-for-rpd/msg121204/#msg121204

It’s not absolutely necessary to let a variable interlude between two foods

Thanks for sharing an area of agreement.

but it’s wise to ask oneself after having eaten something up to a point we felt we had enough of it:

- Am I still hungry?
- If yes,what other food is tempting me at the moment?
- Which one is the most appealing?
- Do I feel this other foodstuff will be ok digestion-wise with what I ate?

I didn't take Sorrentus' suggestion to imply a contradiction of all that.

It’s obvious to me that some foods interfere badly with the digestion of other foods. Once you got an indigestion because for example you ate bananas just after eating a good amount of meat, or durian after avocados, or avocados after almonds, or safus after meat, then you understand and you never do again such a mistake…   

That hasn't happened to me, so apparently it's OK for me to eat some honey or fruit with meat at the same meal. It certainly makes sense for you to do what works for you. That's presumably something else we can agree on.

The most different foods we mix in our stomach, the harder our digestion will be.

I was only inquiring about why you called the idea of eating a little honey with meat crazy, not about eating anything together with anything.

Thanks for explaining why you thought Sorrentus' suggestion was the craziest idea you've ever heard or read. Do you really think it's crazier than the reports in this forum of urine drinking and feces eating?

I'm still not persuaded that Sorenutus, paper_clips43 and Aajonus' comments about eating some honey with meat were crazy, nor CatTreats when she ate yukhoe, sorry.

[Hanna]

if you care to speculate,,,    one hunting party goes out and comes back with a fresh kill.   The tribe sits and eats, knawing  away,,,   the second hunting party comes back with a huge bee hive full of honey.   Can't you imagine how they Just might get a little honey in their mouths at the same time that they have meat in there too?

They probably had their traditions which foods to eat in which way. Up to the present day, there is or was the tradition, at least in Germany/Europe, not to eat meat and sweet foods at the same meal. In my childhood, a  dessert was only eaten on sundays, at the most, and in my parents’ childhood a dessert was only eaten at Easter, at Christmas or the like. BTW, all hunters and gatherers including those carrying foods back to their camp do cook their meat, so it seems we have to look at animals such as apes or bears.

[Iguana]

Van already addressed that here:
And an article supporting him on this was posted today here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/do-u-think-we-have-the-same-gut-bacteria-like-this-african-tribe-for-rpd/msg121204/#msg121204

Yes, and I answered that:

Van, I’m not considering the last thousands of years, but the millions years before. 

The Hazda bring back various foods to their camp and share it, therefore they can mix and cook these foods. I’m on raw paleo, thus I don’t take after-fire-control behaviors as a model.

I was only inquiring about why you called the idea of eating a little honey with meat crazy, not about eating anything together with anything.

Thanks for explaining why you thought Sorrentus' suggestion was the craziest idea you've ever heard or read. Do you really think it's crazier than the reports in this forum of urine drinking and feces eating?

No, I don’t think it's crazier than the reports in this forum of urine drinking and feces eating. That is even more crazy, and thus I was wrong! 

I'm still not persuaded that Sorenutus, paper_clips43 and Aajonus' comments about eating some honey with meat were crazy, nor CatTreats when she ate yukhoe, sorry.

I wouldn’t eat honey shortly before or shortly after meat, but of course it depends on the respective amounts and on individual specificities. And eating two foods separately, without going back and forth from one to the other  is different then mixing  it, which allows us to eat too much of both those foods.

I understood that Sorentus advice was to pour  honey on the meat.  As Hanna pointed out, even Europeans on standard cooked diet don’t do that: in culinary cultured  Europe, meats are not spiced with sweets and I think it’s a sound practice.

[CatTreats]

I'm still slightly dealing with this problem. Fruit is very appealing for me everyday, but meat/organs are not except in small amounts.

I had beef liver two nights ago for the first time. It was VERY good, but I could only eat a small amount before feeling like I need to stop. Yesterday, I had a little bit of liver and some regular muscle meat. Barely anything, so I was nearly fasting. Today, I had some liver and heart. Both were good for about 7-8 small bites, then I needed to stop. Had some tuna belly, was only good for about 3 bites. Then an orange, and it tasted delicious.

I want to assume I should just eat fruit, but I was also wondering what everyone's opinion is on how much is too much for fruit?

[goodsamaritan]

I'm still slightly dealing with this problem. Fruit is very appealing for me everyday, but meat/organs are not except in small amounts.

I had beef liver two nights ago for the first time. It was VERY good, but I could only eat a small amount before feeling like I need to stop. Yesterday, I had a little bit of liver and some regular muscle meat. Barely anything, so I was nearly fasting. Today, I had some liver and heart. Both were good for about 7-8 small bites, then I needed to stop. Had some tuna belly, was only good for about 3 bites. Then an orange, and it tasted delicious.

I want to assume I should just eat fruit, but I was also wondering what everyone's opinion is on how much is too much for fruit?

I look for variety.
I sort of follow my instincts with a lot of logic mixed in.

[CatTreats]

I look for variety.
I sort of follow my instincts with a lot of logic mixed in.

Yeah, I'm trying to vary things up but it's hard with my boyfriend's restrictions while we heal his eczema. I don't want to buy a lot of food just for myself. So I can't have shellfish. I'm not sure what other fish are good to eat raw - salmon and tuna are great, but snapper, cod, mahi mahi, and most white fish are very bland. I don't think the pork I have access to is the best, and I'm not sure pork even sounds that great. No veggies sound good at all. I can't access any other organ meats at all for the time being, just the liver and heart that I have in my freezer.

[Iguana]

It’s no problem to eat fruits as much as you like, at least during a few days and if their quality is not too bad. What about tomatoes, green peas, avocados? Nuts? Aged meat is much tastier than fresh meat. Mackerel is cheap and usually tasty. Why can’t you buy shellfish, even if it’s for yourself only?
 
Do not force yourself to eat anything, for example organs. You’ll like it in larger amounts once your body really needs it and can handle it. Starting with small amounts like you do is fine to allow your system to gradually multiply the specific enzymes needed for their assimilation and to avoid a too intensive detox. 

Try to get fresh meat — avoid frozen one.

[CatTreats]

It’s no problem to eat fruits as much as you like, at least during a few days and if their quality is not too bad.

Good to know. We only buy fresh, local, and organic (except for things that must be imported like mango and banana). I was worried that I would do harm by eating a lot of fruit for a day or so.

What about tomatoes, green peas, avocados? Nuts? Aged meat is much tastier than fresh meat. Mackerel is cheap and usually tasty. Why can’t you buy shellfish, even if it’s for yourself only?

I'm not a fan of plain avocados, but I do love guacamole sometimes. I LOVE tomatoes, but they are nightshade so I've always limited them, despite never having actual problems when I do eat them. I had two steaks aging in my fridge, but neither smell appealing ... in fact, they have an unpleasant smell. But, these were steaks from a source that I'm not a big fan of - it's all organic, grass-fed, but the taste has always been less appealing. I've never seen mackerel actually. I guess I could buy some scallops for myself. I just feel bad eating something he can't have lol.
 

Do not force yourself to eat anything, for example organs. You’ll like it in larger amounts once your body really needs it and can handle it. Starting with small amounts like you do is fine to allow your system to gradually multiply the specific enzymes needed for their assimilation and to avoid a too intensive detox.

Interesting! I was only really "forcing" it because it was thawed and open. I hate waste, especially when I'm poor and the food is high quality.

Try to get fresh meat — avoid frozen one.

I wish that were possible. Our seafood is all fresh, but meat is impossible. The store-bought (the stuff that I said I disliked) is imported, and we only get that as a last resort. The high quality stuff is from the farmers market, and it has to be frozen. That's my only source at the moment because I won't buy from Whole Foods (too expensive), and from my understanding, they import their stuff too.

[PaleoPhil]

Quote from: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 02:07:39 am
Van, I’m not considering the last thousands of years, but the millions years before.

It's actually millions of years, rather than thousands. The hunter gatherer lifestyle, in which there is sharing of different foods and eating them at the same meal among foraging parties, at camp and during overnight trips, actually predates cooking, unless you think cooking goes back farther than "over 2 million years" (source: The Natural History of Human Food Sharing and Cooperation: A Review and a New Multi-Individual Approach to the Negotiation of Norms, Hillard Kaplan & Michael Gurven, 2001, http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/kaplangurven.pdf) Even after the advent of cooking, many of both plant and animal foods were eaten raw, right up to the present.

[van]

It's actually millions of years, rather than thousands. The hunter gatherer lifestyle, in which there is sharing of different foods and eating them at the same meal among foraging parties, at camp and during overnight trips, actually predates cooking, unless you think cooking goes back farther than "over 2 million years" (source: The Natural History of Human Food Sharing and Cooperation: A Review and a New Multi-Individual Approach to the Negotiation of Norms, Hillard Kaplan & Michael Gurven, 2001, http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/kaplangurven.pdf) Even after the advent of cooking, many of both plant and animal foods were eaten raw, right up to the present.

to my point,  all the more time for peoples to have had the opportunity to have tried honey with meat.    AND, just because they did, or do, or didn't,  doesn't mean squat, as in it's healthy to do so, that it's right for 'you', or that because they did it, then  it must be included as a new book in the old testament. 

[PaleoPhil]

to my point,  all the more time for peoples to have had the opportunity to have tried honey with meat.

Yup

[Iguana]

Good to know. We only buy fresh, local, and organic (except for things that must be imported like mango and banana). I was worried that I would do harm by eating a lot of fruit for a day or so.

Don’t worry! I’ve eaten a lot of fruit almost everyday during 27 years — and even before when I was still eating cooked foods as well. I’m far from being the only one doing so and being well.

I'm not a fan of plain avocados, but I do love guacamole sometimes. I LOVE tomatoes, but they are nightshade so I've always limited them, despite never having actual problems when I do eat them. I had two steaks aging in my fridge, but neither smell appealing ... in fact, they have an unpleasant smell. But, these were steaks from a source that I'm not a big fan of - it's all organic, grass-fed, but the taste has always been less appealing. I've never seen mackerel actually. I guess I could buy some scallops for myself. I just feel bad eating something he can't have lol.

Why can’t he eat scallops? Because he doesn’t like them? And Iif he likes scallops, then there’s no reason for him to avoid them. But better avoid shelled ones, we don’t know what kind of processing they have been through.   

How do you age meat that has been frozen? I don’t eat any thawed meat, thus I wonder how would a thawed steak age.

Don’t worry about tomatoes being nightshades! What’s the hell about it? No problems have been noticed with ripe tomatoes and red peppers during 50 years of 100% raw instinctive nutrition by several hundreds people in Europe. Even Cordain (isn’t he the one who launched this nightshades’ phobia?) wrote: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/cordain-newsletter-nightshades-part-2/msg37471/#msg37471  Cordain Newsletter - Nightshades part 2

« However, because ripe red tomatoes have such low concentrations of ?-tomatine, and because they are rich sources of vitamins, minerals and other healthful nutrients, only people with an autoimmune disease or allergies should consider limiting their fresh ripe tomato intake. »

Phil, I started reading the paper you linked.

[goodsamaritan]

Don’t worry! I’ve eaten a lot of fruit almost everyday during 27 years — and even before when I was still eating cooked foods as well. I’m far from being the only one doing so and being well.

I eat a lot of fruit too.  I live in a tropical fruit paradise.
You have to learn how to choose.