Author Topic: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?  (Read 7667 times)

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Offline Alive

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The discussions about the 'ZC' diet have highlighted some rather large problems with the diet categories on this site, which do not match with historical reality of what a paleodiet would have included. In addition more consideration needs to be given to what foods are readily available to our average modern human.

I believe this is important because these arbitrary categories may be channeling users into directions that are unhelpful.

"Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet
Animal products with some veggies, berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added to the mix."
'Omnivorous' - unnecessary since humans are omnivores so practically all paleo diets would be omnivorous.
' some veggies' is ambiguous and denigrates the high value starchy roots, and wet vegetative matter would have had.
'non-domesticated, wild fruits' is totally unrealistic for most of us.
No mention is made of seeds, fungi or seaweed

"Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach
Not literally zero carb but eating only from the animal kingdom: muscle meats, organs, and fat of sea, sky, and land animals alike -- the raw meat diet for humans."
This is not even a paleo diet - what tribe of humans living on unfrozen land has ever limited themselves to eating just animal food? Therefore this diet title either needs changing or it should be moved to the 'Other Raw-Animal-Food' category.

'Wai Dieters
High in fruit; low in a limited selection of animal foods; raw vegetables and dairy are forbidden.'
Well this is obviously not a paleo diet because once again I bet that there has never been a tribe that randomly decided not to eat roots, shoots, leaves, flowers, sprouts, fungi, seaweed etc. So it to belongs in the 'Other Raw-Animal-Food' category.

It seems others have made similar comments many times before, but there is too much inertia and an unwillingness to change, maybe its too hard to change the setup, or it might alienate existing users, or just can't be bothered.
 
Another way of looking at this is that ancient humans would have eaten whatever they could find, so the diets would come down to the climate in geographical location of the inhabitants. Following this would give:

Temperate Diet (a low sugar diet)
Animal food, low sugar fruits and berries, vegetation, roots, fungi, seaweed, seeds, nuts

Tropical diet (a high sugar diet)
Animal food, high and low sugar fruits and berries, vegetation, roots, fungi, seaweed, seeds, nuts

Frigid diet (a very low carb diet?)
Animal food, seasonal  berries, vegetation, roots, fungi, seaweed, seeds, nuts

Any other ideas?

Offline Iguana

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2014, 08:20:41 pm »
Alive, you’re absolutely right, I’ve always thought the same but didn’t bother to argue for a change, expecting strong resistance.

Even the description of the « Instincto / Anopsology » section ( Eating raw, unprepared and unmixed food - mono-eating ) is wrong because it’s not necessarily mono-eating as different foods can be consumed one after the other at the same meal.   
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 08:29:20 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 02:26:02 am »
Yes, the way the forum is organized and how particular variations of "Raw Paleo Diet" are described has always been a source of contention. I suspect many regular posters would be happy to see things changed, but I also suspect that the moderators want things to stay the same.

LOL, I don't think alienating existing users is much of an issue as there are only about 10 people who post on a regular basis anymore. I actually started a thread about the fairly steep decline in visitors to the site earlier this year: Raw Paleo Diet Forum Statistics.

Offline eveheart

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 03:52:09 am »
I like your suggested grouping by geographical zones (tropical, temperate, frigid), Alive. I think it's accurate, innovative, and even brilliant from a paleolithic-diet point-of-view.

I can also understand the resistance to change on the part of the moderators, who might be thinking that a transition would appear awkward. The irony there is that, let's face it, eating raw meat, fish, fat, eggs - the whole thing we do - appears awkward!

I think we have the dedication and experience in this forum to become the leading edge in raw paleo, and leaders get to decide the language. If one looks to the past, transitions are awkward, but if one looks to the future, transitions are inevitable. I would like to see some small, meaningful re-organization.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2014, 08:24:19 pm »
Looking through different forum categories, it occurs to me that many of them haven't been used in a long time; the most recent post might be days or weeks old, or older. In addition to the reorganization noted above, it might also be worthwhile to consolidate categories so that people check in to them more frequently.

Hopefully one or more current moderators will engage in dialog about how to reorganize the forum and this can be done in a timely manner. In the event this doesn't happen, I wonder if anyone would be open to starting a different forum with more open-minded moderators?

Offline Alive

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 03:55:34 am »
It seems ridiculous that many moderators don't agree with their category  descriptions  :o
After reading a couple of excellent 3 year old posts from KD and PaleoPhil on the "Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing..." thread I now understand that this discussion has been going on for a long time without any evolution.

I think what has happened is that this site is partly about limits, as they need to be stringent for success, but then the question becomes 'is this a raw paleo food'? For the wai diet the answer is yes , so therefore this site considers that the wai diet is a subset of the raw paleo diet because it contains foods that are raw paleo.
With this criteria the Liver Diet, where you only eat raw liver and nothing else, is a raw paleo diet.

Therefore it is all about variety.

Here is my definition of the Modern Raw Paleo Diet:

Expose your taste buds to a wide variety of seasonally available raw paleo-like foods, eating only what tastes good and only when you are hungry, taking into consideration your past food experiences and acquired wisdom

If this is really a 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' thread then I'll have my own diet thanks - here it is:
 Alive's Temperate Climate Raw Paleo Diet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dkYwV7rWZcs0chhFQ4Fp0k_jhvyGNHzuTlXnq9ATBb0/pubhtml
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 04:22:41 am by alive »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 05:03:02 am »
Category wording suggestions have tended to get misunderstood as attempts to ban this or that, apparently because someone tried to get the Wai Diet section banned in the past.

Quickly throwing together something, this is what I came up with:

Quote
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet
Raw plant, animal, fungi, and other eukaryota foods.

Carnivorous Raw Paleo Diet
Emphasis on animal foods, with some people including some plant foods in the mix.
From facultative to obligate carnivore; usually Very Low Carb (not necessarily zero carb); eating mostly from the animal kingdom (muscle meats, organs, and fat of sea, sky, and land animals).

Instincto / Anopsology
Eating raw, unprepared and unmixed food, with emphasis on using the senses in food selection and quantity.

Other Diets with Similarities

Wai Diet
High in fruit; mostly raw; low in a limited selection of animal foods; raw vegetables and dairy are forbidden.

Primal Diet (Aajonus Vonderplanitz)

Weston A. Price Diet

Aficionados of the diets of Aajonus and WAP could add descriptions. I don't expect these changes to be implemented, but maybe this will help show that I don't want to ban any of the categories and maybe help clarify what I was talking about re: Wai and ZC.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Alive

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2014, 07:56:24 am »
One of the many things I love about the Raw Paleo Diet Forum is how dedicated the creators, moderators, and users are to provide feedback and keep the site clean and on track. I am grateful for the considerable amount of commitment that is shown here.

I agree Eric, it would be fun to create a more static resource based around the ideas we have been discussing, much like you have with your papers on energy use. I am thinking of a world map with global examples of diets that are seasonally appropriate and mostly raw paleo.

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2014, 08:26:25 am »
It occurs to me that not only has participation tapered off, but the majority of the moderators, particularly Ioanna, djr_81, Hannibal and reyyzl, haven't posted in months or, in some cases, years. Are they still actively engaged with the site? And I believe Iguana gave up his moderator status, so the sections that list him as moderator are currently not moderated at all. It appears the only moderators that are posting regularly are Geoff (aka TylerDurden) and Edwin (goodsamaritan). They've got something of a monopoly going on, it seems.

Offline Alive

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2014, 08:39:22 am »
The heart of the problem must be the governance structure - do you know how a successful collaborative governance structure can be created online?

Offline sabertooth

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2014, 10:44:07 am »
Perhaps a democratic solution is possible, only who should we elect to fill the vacant positions. Does anyone want to take on the role of moderator for the negelected sections.

Perhaps no one among us wants the responsibility or the headache in dealing with stubborn posters . Personally, I have my hands full with just dealing with life at the homestead.

 I would like to see an more expansive forum, full of new people with different ideals and passionate dissuasion's. A lot of what is being discussed here is on the cutting edge of nutritional science, and it would be nice to get a broader audience, and some bright newbies to carry on in this endeavor.
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2014, 07:05:05 pm »
I myself would favor a forum that focuses more broadly on raw foods, but unlike raw vegan forums is tolerant and inclusive of those of us who eat raw meat and has no tolerance for name calling, character attacks, etc. I'd want the categories to be based on particular nutritional areas, such as Plant Foods, Animal Foods, Fungi, Medicinals, Resistant Starch, Fermentation, Seasonality, etc., rather than give particular diet gurus and their books individual categories.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 09:55:28 am »
I myself would favor a forum that focuses more broadly on raw foods, but unlike raw vegan forums is tolerant and inclusive of those of us who eat raw meat....

It's been tried several times.  The forums at rawfoods.com used to allow posting about raw animal foods, but now they ban almost immediately for mentioning animal foods in a positive light.

Raw vegan trolls will take a mile if you give them an inch.  Remember the DurianRider fiasco?  I must have banned him half a dozen times or more.  Then there was SuperInfinity, who got banned at least 5 times. The list goes on.  There are simply too many extremists in and around the online raw vegan community to allow the two groups (RAFers and vegans) to mix on one forum.  It would be chaos, stupendous trollery, and extreme personal attacks followed by a dead forum.   You simply have to let these people discover RAF on their own. They will come to it in their own time, or not at all.  Lex was a vegan for 25+ years.  Now look at his diet.  Can you imagine trying to  have recruited him at year 5 or 10 of veganism?  It would not have worked.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 03:21:30 pm »
What we need re popularity is to get another   RVAF diet-guru like Aajonus, but a bit less "New-Age" than AV. As regards other moderators not posting as often, this is hardly surprising. Most people only focus heavily on diet for health reasons. Once those health-problems disappear, there is usually no reason for  staying on a forum except for very occasional socialising.  I mean, one can talk about diet only so much. GS likes to get others to go rawpalaeo and my own motivation  for staying on is that I want people to avoid making most of the easily avoidable mistakes I made early on in this diet.
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Offline Alive

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 04:22:44 pm »
I like your idea Eric, as it seems this site has an anti-vegetable vibe to it, for example TylerDurdens' continual trashing of PaleoPhils many excellent posts on the benefits of starches.

It could be the Raw Omnivore Diet Forum   :)

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 07:09:49 pm »
Thanks, but that would be too narrow a focus. The forum is small enough as it is.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: How could the 'Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You' categories be improved?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2014, 12:58:05 pm »
What we need re popularity is to get another   RVAF diet-guru like Aajonus, but a bit less "New-Age" than AV. As regards other moderators not posting as often, this is hardly surprising. Most people only focus heavily on diet for health reasons. Once those health-problems disappear, there is usually no reason for  staying on a forum except for very occasional socialising.  I mean, one can talk about diet only so much. GS likes to get others to go rawpalaeo and my own motivation  for staying on is that I want people to avoid making most of the easily avoidable mistakes I made early on in this diet.

I think a lot of the guys and gals here are collectively guru and evolving too.
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