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Offline chuck5855

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Frustrated
« on: July 01, 2014, 10:26:30 am »
Hello all!


So I'm feeling frustrated and demoralized. I was talking to a friend about starting this raw paleo diet. He has always agreed with me on the conventional paleo diet(cooked). Started telling him about raw. He stops me and starts talking about cooking food this is how the conversation went and a rundown of what he said:

1). He said if you look at evolution it proves that cooking things like tuber, meat etc.. made us human with bigger brains.

2). He said that cooking jump starts the digestion process for us and that means we don't have to sit around like lions to digest food. That gave us more time to do other things.

3). He talked about stomach acidity of humans vs. carnivores( I looked this up and our stomach's adjust acidity based on food to as low as 1 ph, same as dogs etc...)

4). He then got on the E. coli, salmonella and parasite thing. He said that the shit exists and people get really sick. I told him we have it in our stomachs but he said it wasn't the same.

5). His biggest claim is that people are healthy in spite of eating raw animal foods not because of it.

6). He also said that it could end you up in the hospital or dead and most people on this forum are lucky.

7). Last but not least he talked about scientific studies and how they all point to food safety concerns. He is big on studies and research.

I'm feeling confused and thinking about what he said.  I wanna start this diet but am feeling a little hesitant, and doubting my gut instinct( based on my own research too).

I don't really care about what anyone thinks but is this raw beef, chicken and fish thing necessary?

I'm having doubts and do not want to. I need some input/education/ and reassurance.

When I question all of this I ask myself this question "do any other animals in the animal kingdom cook their food? Obviously the answers "No". Are the "wild" animals healthier than us? Yes.

But then I ask "does this set us apart"? Am I questioning something (cooking of food) that led us to be an advanced species in the world. And "Why hasn't anyone else eg... Media, nutritionist, scientists, regular everyday people see the value in raw"?

Sorry for the long rant but it's just frustrating and there isn't anyone or anywhere else to turn for clarity.

Chuck

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2014, 11:21:46 am »
Your friend is sort of correct on some points, but his reasoning leaves much to be desired.

Quote
1). He said if you look at evolution it proves that cooking things like tuber, meat etc.. made us human with bigger brains.
Cooking can make some foods accessible that otherwise wouldn't be. Cooking destroys toxins in some plant foods, and also sterilizes foods that might otherwise harbor pathogenic parasites or microbes. Whether cooking 'made us human' is another issue. Scientists who make this claim rely largely on the fact that their assertions reinforce cultural beliefs against eating raw meat. In my opinion the evidence they offer to support their claims is weak. What allowed our brains to grow so large relative to our body size is probably access to animal fat, since our brains are made up disproportionately of fat. Cooking didn't give us access to the fat needed to grow big brains, hunting did. In particular, the development of long-range projectile weapons like stone-tipped spears and stone-tipped arrows probably played huge roles, both in terms of making up for our lack of speed and claws and enhancing our ability to steal kills from larger carnivores like lions and tigers.

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2). He said that cooking jump starts the digestion process for us and that means we don't have to sit around like lions to digest food. That gave us more time to do other things.
Cooking does break down the cell walls in plant and fungi foods, which does jump start the digestion process. It also destroys some of the nutritive value in these foods. So there's a trade off here your friend is ignoring.

With respect to animal foods, when people eat large meals, as lions tend to when they're successful at taking down game, we have to sit around too. Even when we eat large meals of cooked food. What do people do after gorging themselves on Thanksgiving turkey? They sit around.

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3). He talked about stomach acidity of humans vs. carnivores ( I looked this up and our stomach's adjust acidity based on food to as low as 1 ph, same as dogs etc...)
I don't see how our stomach's ability to adjust its acidity is an argument against eating raw food. Different types of food - plants versus meat, for instance - require different pH and different enzymes to break them down and extract maximum nutrition. Makes sense that our stomachs can do this.

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4). He then got on the E. coli, salmonella and parasite thing. He said that the shit exists and people get really sick. I told him we have it in our stomachs but he said it wasn't the same.
He's right. These are all big issues, but mainly for people who eat industrially raised animal foods. Animals raised in factories have suppressed immune systems, suffer from parasite infestations and harbor all sorts of nasty bacteria because they're forced to wade in their own filth. Of course they're unsafe to eat without sterilization (cooking). If you read through this forum, you'll see that those of us who do well on a raw food diet are quite picky about what sorts of animal foods we'll eat. We choose animals that ARE NOT raised in factories, ARE NOT raised in crowded conditions where they must walk in their own feces, and ARE NOT forced to eat unnatural foods. Animals raised naturally usually have low parasite burdens, little pathogenic bacteria and are typically quite safe to eat raw or cooked.

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5). His biggest claim is that people are healthy in spite of eating raw animal foods not because of it.
He believes this because he probably holds false assumptions about what we eat. See my response to #4 above. There are huge benefits to eating high quality protein and fat that hasn't been denatured by heat. Those of us who have access to foods high quality enough to be safely eaten raw do quite well because of them, not in spite of them.

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6). He also said that it could end you up in the hospital or dead and most people on this forum are lucky.
See my response to #5 and #4 above.

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7). Last but not least he talked about scientific studies and how they all point to food safety concerns. He is big on studies and research.
See above, particularly #4.

As for the rest of your questions, many people do see the value of raw. There are plenty of studies focusing on bits and pieces of the picture, both for raw animal foods and raw plant foods. Mainstream nutrition and medical scientists and practitioners don't put the pieces together because they're funded by the processed food industry.

Processed food is incredibly profitable as a business, and from this vantage point there's no money in convincing people to eat fresh, unadultered food. As I note in my blog post Treating Food as an Investment, healthcare expenditures make up a huge part of America's economy. If people stopped eating junk food and ate mostly fresh, unadultered food, many diet-related ailments would resolve themselves. This would be catastrophic from an economic standpoint, because the monetary expenditures associated with diet-related disease would stop and literally millions of people would lose their jobs, not to mention millions more who work in the processed food industry. This fact isn't lost on those who decide how to invest research and development dollars.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 11:34:59 am by Eric »

Offline chuck5855

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 12:15:56 pm »
Eric,


Where were you when I needed you?

I understand all the answers you gave, but most people just do not get it or are not that open minded.

I looked up whether or not people should give their dogs raw food to look at comparisons to humans. The article talked about stomach ph of 1 in dogs which we can achieve. Also talked about lysozyme which humans also have. Every argument about dogs eating raw meat can be applied to humans, even the digestive tract. If look at the human's gi tract and dog's gi tract if looking at ratio of length of body relative to gi tract length they are pretty close. Those are just some of my justifications for the raw animal food diet. As far as science, when nutrition became a science it became way too complicated than it had to be. Most science is junk science. It depends who is funding the study. One minute it's this the next its that.

Thanks,

Chuck


Offline chuck5855

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2014, 12:17:29 pm »
TylerDurden - your thoughts?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 01:39:15 pm »
I would only be concerned with the health results I am getting for myself and the patients I heal, including my children.

The proof is in the results you get.

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Offline Thoth

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 10:48:53 pm »
Thanks for the laugh Chuck. I would avoid eating raw animal foods, they may precipitate extreme logical thinking and you might die from that, being so unaccustomed to it, maybe you should stay with the rest of the peasants and leave exceptionalism to those who know how to do it.

Molecules are puzzle pieces. What do you think would happen to a child's cardboard puzzle if you were to warp the pieces with extreme heat? Would they fit together snugly and make a beautiful image, the way we RAF folks' cellular systems do? Or would they make an ugly and disfigured image like your diseased and grotesque system?

Stay with the herd, it sounds like you belong there.

With Love,
Thoth

Offline chuck5855

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 11:42:09 pm »
Huh! I should stay with herd? Because I'm new to this and I'm a little unsure and maybe uneducated about this all I am being made an ass out of? Let me ask, is this how new people are treated on this forum? You my friend are what I would call an arrogant douche. I'll make sure I stay away from this forum and I will let others know to do the same. Just thought this would be a good place to get info. but apparently not.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 12:09:43 am »
thoth was just being sarcastic, it was meant as a joke.
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2014, 12:11:31 am »
Or he was being an arrogant internet troll. Take your pick.

Offline chuck5855

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2014, 12:20:19 am »
Good Samaritan,

When your posting stuff on the internet it's hard to get across sarcasm. That's why most people should just stay away from it when using forums. Besides, if most people reading that would not call that sarcasm, they would call it being an jerk. (I'll keep it clean) Point is put yourself in my situation, I'm new to this forum, how would you take that response? Not sure if I wanna post anything else, as I am afraid to that I will get another sarcastic answer which leaves me wondering again, why I came to this forum in the first place? I do appreciate your responses to my questions though.

Chuck



Offline eveheart

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 12:46:24 am »
You are heartily welcome to this forum, where one aim is to help you buy, prepare, eat, and store raw food safely. As you pointed our, of course humans can eat raw animal food safely, otherwise our species would have eaten itself into oblivion ages ago.

My daughter feeds her family cooked paleo and I eat raw paleo. I sometimes eat the food she prepares. OTOH, she only eats my food if it's sashimi!

All these raw foods are safe, delicious, and health-giving if you buy good quality and store it safely. For example, grain-fed beef can develop antibiotic-resistant strains of e. coli, but this type of beef is not healthy even if it is cooked. E. coli can also occur in vegetable products, so grain-fed beef is not the only culprit. Avoid CAFO meats and you will avoid major problems.

Also, don't expect everybody to agree with you, as much as you are not expected to agree with all others. True, you can throw well-documented counter-facts at every point that your friend made, but it's better to "agree to disagree" than to get frustrated and demoralized.

"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline chuck5855

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 12:57:59 am »
Eveheart,

Thank you for the info. It's just a big step to take that's against everything we've been taught our whole lives(which I believe been a load of crap). What does your typical days diet look like? Just want to get an idea. If anybody else cares to share a days diet feel free. I a lot will be personal preference and what works for me. I don't get into a lot of arguments about this with people. It tends to be a stale mate or ends with them getting frustrated when they are pushed for answers.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 01:11:23 am »
What does your typical days diet look like? Just want to get an idea.

When I buy food, it doesn't come with packaging or labels, and it is of the highest quality. Then, I don't cook it. Also, I don't use seasoning to "fool" my tastebuds into thinking that I'm eating something else. In addition, I don't eat neolithic agricultural foods, such as grains or legumes.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 01:12:51 am »
Hello all!


So I'm feeling frustrated and demoralized. I was talking to a friend about starting this raw paleo diet. He has always agreed with me on the conventional paleo diet(cooked). Started telling him about raw. He stops me and starts talking about cooking food this is how the conversation went and a rundown of what he said:

1). He said if you look at evolution it proves that cooking things like tuber, meat etc.. made us human with bigger brains.
This view has been espoused by Wrangham and has been heavily debunked. At around the time hominids developed bigger brains they had turned to eating (raw) meat more and more. Evidence re cooking is very sparse and highly suspect until c.250,000-300,000 years ago when it becomes abundant, suggesting that cooking only got started many ages after hominids got bigger brains.
Quote
2). He said that cooking jump starts the digestion process for us and that means we don't have to sit around like lions to digest food. That gave us more time to do other things.
Actually, raw foods get digested a lot quicker than cooked foods. This argument is similiar to Wrangham's claims that rawists need to chew raw foods for hours every day like chimpanzees in order to get enough daily nutrients. It also shows that Wrangham has never bothered to actually visit a genuine raw foodist as we actually take less time over meals, as we do not need to cook our foods and often do not need to prepare them either.
[/quote]
Quote
3). He talked about stomach acidity of humans vs. carnivores( I looked this up and our stomach's adjust acidity based on food to as low as 1 ph, same as dogs etc...)
We humans are omnivores, not carnivores, anyway, so this is meaningless......
Quote
4). He then got on the E. coli, salmonella and parasite thing. He said that the shit exists and people get really sick. I told him we have it in our stomachs but he said it wasn't the same.
it is the same. Incidentally, we raw foodists hardly ever get parasites, they are  extremely rare, and if we do, the outcome is usually harmless and easily gotten rid of through pharmaceutical drugs or herbs. Food-poisoning is heavily exaggerated in the media, again almost unknown in the raw foodist community(even among those who regularly eat rotten raw meats), and there are other reasons for food-poisoning that have nothing to do with whether a food is in a raw state or not.
Quote
5). His biggest claim is that people are healthy in spite of eating raw animal foods not because of it.
One can explain away a few anomalies but when many rawists have been eating raw foods for many decades, and without issues, then his claim becomes nonsense.
Quote
6). He also said that it could end you up in the hospital or dead and most people on this forum are lucky.
"luck" has nothing to do with it when many people have been eating this way for many decades without issues.
Quote
7). Last but not least he talked about scientific studies and how they all point to food safety concerns. He is big on studies and research.
Actually, the science behind food-poisoning is pretty incompetent, whereas there are now thousands of studies done on the various heat-created toxins found in cooked foods, the loss of nutrients caused by cooking and the nasty impact on health caused by consumption of cooked foods.





« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 02:14:58 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline jessica

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2014, 01:41:50 am »
Ryan is being a prick because he is disappointed and disgusted by people who don't have as strong of will and urge to thrive as he does.  We are not all such supreme specimens who are able to overcome all of our issues in the same time scale.  There is probably a better outlet then venting on random Internet dweebs.

Offline chuck5855

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2014, 02:00:57 am »
Thanks everyone. Tyler Durden - thanks for the input. Just wanted to get people's opinions. I like the info. that most people provide on this forum. It's helpful to get advice from people who have been doing this for so long.

Again, thanks everyone

Chuck

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2014, 03:01:41 am »
I don't even know what my typical daily diet consists of. It changes day-to-day, week-to-week, with the seasons, changes with availability of different foods, even changes with my income levels as I'm happy to spend good money on good food when I can, but improvise when I can't.

Yesterday I ate some clay early in the morning as part of my long-term cleansing routine. A few hours later I drank a shot glass full of fresh dandelion juice, and a glass of dandelion infusion made from putting the pulp from the juiced dandelion into a jar of pure, room temperature water. Around noon I ate a 6 ounce piece of raw beef liver, later that evening I downed 6 raw eggs. That was it.

Today, clay first thing in the morning, then a shot glass with dandelion and thistle juice. It's 3 pm and so far this is all I've eaten today; I'm in the habit of only eating when I'm hungry and haven't felt the need to eat anything else so far.

Offline wildman

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2014, 06:55:54 am »
Hey chuck how about u don't go on any diet
At all and just eat everything from both spectrums. By this I mean u can eat both raw animal foods and cooked ones. Both raw plant foods and cooked ones. If u eat this way there will be no confusion in your brain because your eating everything and not restricting yourself. It is true freedom. No dogma. It has made my life a lot easier. For me raw paleo is a eating disorder. I am the universe looking at myself. There is no one on this forum who knows what is best for them or what the " perfect" diet is. For me eating both cooked foods and raw foods very liberating

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2014, 07:23:55 am »
you think "raw paleo diet is an eating disorder"... tsk tsk.
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Offline eveheart

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2014, 09:39:19 am »
For me raw paleo is a eating disorder.

Most likely you are referring to orthorexia, an eating disorder in which sufferers have an obsession with eating foods that are considered healthy or systematically avoid specific foods in the belief that they are harmful.

Any attempt to obsessively over-define dietary habits can take on the characteristic of orthorexia, yet the diet itself is not the culprit. It's good that you recognized that tendency in yourself, Wildman, and found a way to relieve your discomfort. So far, Chuck has not expressed the same type of concern, so perhaps he is not experiencing an orthorexic type of discomfort.

For me, raw paleo means I only have to wash my plate and not pots, pans, stove, and oven. It means that meat tastes fresh and alive, not toughened and dried by cooking. It means that I am not exhausting my body trying to digest and eliminate denatured foods. It means that I don't have severe joint inflammation from heat-created toxins. Etc.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2014, 02:14:25 pm »
For me eating both cooked foods and raw foods very liberating

LOL. There’s nothing extraordinary in such a way: more than 7 billion people on this planet eat both cooked and raw foods!   ;D :D
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline FRANCIS HOWARD BOND

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2014, 04:22:13 pm »
Stay with us and do NOT be discouraged!!!!!!

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2014, 01:00:47 am »
Humans are the only species that cooks its food. If cooking was so essential to health, the rest of the animal kingdom would be doomed. Clearly, cooking is not essential for most species, and it has not been demonstrated that it's essential even for humans.

If cooking is the primary generator of larger brains, then why do the Inuit and indigenous northern Siberians have some of the largest skulls/brains on earth, despite thousands of years of eating more of their foods raw than most populations on earth, and despite traditional Inuits also having some of the most powerful jaws ever measured (there's a hypothesis that larger brain size could only come about when jaw size decreased), and why are average human brains smaller today than 40,000 years ago, despite cooking more of our foods in recent centuries than at any time previously in human history, and why did primate brains start growing before the earliest claimed date (by Wrangham) of 1.9 million years ago, and why do tree shrews (which are similar to the ancestor of primates) have larger brain-to-body mass ratios than humans or any other mammals, despite cooking none of their foods? Size is one factor, but it's not the only one.

Tree shrews eat raw insects, fruits, fermented nectar and seeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treeshrew).

And why does every society on earth still eat some of its food raw, with the more traditional societies (less prone to diseases of civilization) generally eating more of it raw?

Also, some tubers are edible raw, as discussed in this forum before. Eskimo potato is a fascinating example. It's far more likely that ancient ancestors started cooking foods that they were already eating raw than that they started with foods that were completely inedible raw.

Cooked foods do make it easier to get enough calories, but caloric-deficit is less of a problem in the modern Western world than caloric surplus and obesity.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 01:18:06 am by PaleoPhil »
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Offline John Worfin

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2014, 12:02:05 am »
I have thought some about whether cooking food makes sense from a historical paleo past perspective. It seems to me that procuring food for a human in a primitive hunter gatherer existence would be similar to any other animal. Meaning that he/she would go for the greatest calorie gain for effort expended. Thus you would more likely to go after animal meat and fat rather than eating wild broccoli. Hunting an animal could require much tracking and stalking to achieve success. You might well be hunting because you are out of food thus you are already hungry. After finally killing your prey you might well be exhausted from the effort so I am imagining you not be inclined to expend even more energy to gather fuel and build a fire, cut up your prey, wait for it to cook so you can finally eat something many hours later. I think you would most likely just eat it raw.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2014, 08:04:47 am »
Extrapolating that thought of primitive hunter gatherer... if I were a tribe, I would hedge my bets.  Some would gather and some would hunt.
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