Dairy and The "Milk Only" diet

[JaX]

My experience with raw dairy after a week of testing: some raw dairy products I do well with, others not so. Raw butter is fine in limited quantities (although I managed to eat too much once and threw up), raw cheese is fine, but raw cream/raw milk does seem to bloat and produce slight stomach cramps. I've also noted that raw butter cleans my teeth very effectively.. Making them shiny and white for some reason..

The raw dairy products I have tried so far have all been from cattle so I can't say if raw goat milk or fermented goat milk products such as goat yogurt/kefir are any better (anyone with any experience on that?)


I have heard from several people that "true" or "complete" lactose intolerance doesn't really exist, and, most people would start producing lactase (the lactose digesting enzyme) again if they drank nothing but milk for several weeks..  A "Milk Only" diet.. There is even a doc (can't remember his name) who wanted to prove that milk contains all the necessary vitamins/minerals so he drank only milk with honey for a very long time.

Any thoughts on this? Is this a good or a terrible idea to try out ?

Since I haven't really tried raw milk for long enough time, maybe I haven't started producing lactase (or lactase producing bacteria) yet. Still wondering if I should try it for a few more weeks or not.

Those of you who don't drink any dairy but have tried it, how long did you experiment with it before you gave up on it and how much did you drink?
Did you drink it alone, together with meat or mixed with honey? Did you drink it fermented?


There is a lot of conflicting information on milk out there, as it is a very complex substance, so I'm still wondering about it's potential for adding weight/bulking up, recovery after heavy exercise, and immune system health. Many healthy populations/tribes drank raw milk, it is mentioned in much old literature as a healing food, most alternative health practitioners seem to recommend it, and even the cats in Pottenger's experiments thrived when given RAW milk (EVEN though raw milk is theoretically not a cat's "natural" food after weaning, especially if it comes from another animal). Then on the other hand there are a few who are strongly against it, such as a lot of vegans/animal rights/PETA activists, and most of them seem to use the old "saturated fat is bad", "animal fats/proteins are killers" arguments.

[DameonWolf]

My experience with raw butter so far is it does amazing things all over EXCEPT for in my lymphatic system in which is seems to clog up dramatically. I've had problems with my lymph's now for over a year, gonna go get checked up maybe get a biopsy done too see if it's Hodgkin's. I can tell you though the butter was making the problem worse DRAMATICALLY.

[Satya]

I have heard from several people that "true" or "complete" lactose intolerance doesn't really exist, and, most people would start producing lactase (the lactose digesting enzyme) again if they drank nothing but milk for several weeks..  A "Milk Only" diet.. There is even a doc (can't remember his name) who wanted to prove that milk contains all the necessary vitamins/minerals so he drank only milk with honey for a very long time.

Any thoughts on this? Is this a good or a terrible idea to try out ?

Lactose is the disaccharide of galactose and glucose that must be broken down by the lactase enzyme. 
Casein is a protein in milk.  It must be broken down by rennin (chymosin).
Casein has been documented to break down to produce the peptide casomorphin, an opioid that releases histamines [wikipedia].
Both lactase and rennin decrease with age in preteen children, which tells me that they are not appropriate, regular, foods for adults.

Oh, and it's interesting that you can handle butter, but not cream, considering both are ultimately cream.

[JaX]

Lactose is the disaccharide of galactose and glucose that must be broken down by the lactase enzyme. 
Casein is a protein in milk.  It must be broken down by rennin (chymosin).
Casein has been documented to break down to produce the peptide casomorphin, an opioid that releases histamines [wikipedia].
Both lactase and rennin decrease with age in preteen children, which tells me that they are not appropriate, regular, foods for adults.

Oh, and it's interesting that you can handle butter, but not cream, considering both are ultimately cream.

Yes I have heard these theories which is why I still remain skeptical about cow milk.

I have heard though that goat milk contains a lot less casein then cow milk, and if it is fermented (yoghurt, cheese) then that takes care of the lactose as well.

Maybe some just handle casein/lactose better than others? Maybe some people can get their body used to handling these compounds if they drink a little milk consistently?

Milk is a VERY complex food.

[Satya]

My experience with raw butter so far is it does amazing things all over EXCEPT for in my lymphatic system in which is seems to clog up dramatically. I've had problems with my lymph's now for over a year, gonna go get checked up maybe get a biopsy done too see if it's Hodgkin's. I can tell you though the butter was making the problem worse DRAMATICALLY.

I take it you have given dairy the boot?

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jea/17/2/38/_pdf
CONCLUSION: The frequencies of butter consumption, and probably that of milk, were correlated with death from hematopoietic neoplasm, particularly from non-lymphomas.
J Epidemiol 2007; 17: 38-44.


http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/1/80
Data from the Third National Cancer Survey and data collected under the auspices of the National Cancer Institute's Surveillance, Epidemiologic and End Results (SEER) Program were used to perform a descriptive epidemiologic study of leukemia in Iowa. Data were also collected on livestock population patterns in the state, and a survey was performed to locate cases of lymphosarcoma within the cattle population. Ecologic relationships between human leukemia, livestock populations and bovine lymphosarcoma were investigated. Iowa has higher rates than the national average for human leukemias. The lymphoid leukemias make up the majority of the excess leukemias. Excessive acute lymphoid leukemia (ALL) is seen in the ages under 20 years and over 60 years. The excess ALL is in males living in rural counties. There is no sex difference for chronic lymphoid leukemia (CLL), but there is a slight urban-rural differential. There is a high positive correlation between ALL in males and cattle density. This relationship is greater for dairy cattle than for beef cattle. There is an additional positive relationship between counties with excessive ALL and the presence of dairy herds affected with bovine lymphosarcoma.

[DameonWolf]

God damn! So there's actually evidence to support my experience. Yup, given it the boot a couple of days ago I have no tolerance any more for this BS dogma. The second some thing starts affecting me the way butter was, GONE. I'm not gonna put up with this, "detox" crap from the primal people or any one else for that matter. I know when I'm detoxing, I know exactly what it feels like and it's not that. I'm already doing better now that the butter is out. Don't get me wrong, I loved how creamy and smooth my hair and skin was getting, but it aint worth the trade off.

My lymph nodes turned rock hard around a year ago, and then I became very pale/yellow and even more sickly than before. Haven't been able to get my skin color back but my lymph system seemed to stay exactly the same with the high fruits. It also didn't change with adding the meat, but the butter caused a definite reaction. My lymph congestion seems to also be directly connected to my digestive system. If I become constipated, my lymph nodes start to get bigger and my neck begins to stiffen big time.

[Satya]

Dameon,

I did not mean to frighten you, and I do apologize if I have.  I did think twice before posting this, aware that it might be a bit overwhelming to you.  It's just that when you mentioned it, I remembered reading a study about dairy and so I looked it up.  I am glad that you know what detox is, and so you will know the difference when it comes to food.  And really, I think it's better to have the info than not.

I am sure others who are more knowledgeable about RAF/RVAF diets might be able to help you with regards to your lymph system.  I am relatively new and not all raw yet. 

I have done juice fasts in the past for short periods of time - mainly water with about 16 oz of grapefruit or carrot concoctions per day.  I don't know if that would be good for you or not.  Probably just going more towards raw beef would be best.  What do others think?  At least you see the connection with digestion, and hopefully this will help you to heal over time.  I wish you well.

[TylerDurden]

Doing a 100% raw milk diet is a VERY BAD idea! Even Aajonus recommends against it.  It's only meats that are a complete food and, of course, human mther's milk(if drunk by human infants). Cows' milk is designed as a complete food for calves so is not a complete food for humans. I'd have to check specifics, tomorrow, but I recall that cows' dairy is lacking in some key nutrients.

My suggesstion would be to ditch the butter. The vomiting reaction is quite common when ingesting toxic substances, and is classic detox. Yes, the reaction may be minimal/nonexistent, with small amounts of raw butter, but even a small amount of a substance that harms you only slightly will lead to a drop in recovery-rate healthwise.


As regards my own experience, I consumed raw and pasteurised dairy for years before going primal/rawpaleo, and it fouled me up big time. I then did 2 months dairy-free because I couldn't find a dairy source(heaven), then spent 6 months doing the primal diet minus the veggie-juice, and suffered abominably from the dairy, tried everything(only raw butter for my dairy, fermenting dairy etc.) none of which worked at all. Gave it up, and the next 4 months were an amzing recovery in health(felt sort of like how a born-again Christian must feel(I'm an atheist). Experimented with raw dairy on 3 occasions for between 2- 6 weeks each time, and same problems reoccurred quite fast.

[donrad]

My research led me to believe that the lactose digestion gene is one that post dates the Paleolithic period. I am pretty sure we could not have milked the wild beasts during that period. Probably after having domesticated some animals and calmed them down through selective breeding we may have started sharing the milk of their offspring. It is a good food and would have provided a competitive advantage. The earliest domesticated animals were sheep and goat like critters.

This gene would only have developed in our gene pool in areas where animals were domesticated - like Europe and Eurasia. If your ancestors lived there you may have it. If your ancient ancestors lived in the Americas, Asia, or Australia you are less likely. If you are like most Americans and have mixed heritage its a coin toss. Some nomadic tribes in the Middle East lived off the blood and milk of horses (and dates I think they said) as they traveled together.

Goat milk is naturally pasteurized. If you can find it raw it is much closer to human milk than cow's milk.

A farmer just gave me a gallon of raw cows milk. She told me in the winter grass only fed cows do not produce much cream. On place that advertised raw grass fed-milk did not even have any until May. When I told the farmer this she said it depends on the breed of cow and quality of the hay. Her milk was not suitable for making butter as it had a low fat content. Grass fed milk has a better lipid profile and I am sure there are other nutritional benefits.

I is illegal to sell unpasteurized non-homogenized milk in the U.S. in stores. You have to go directly to the farmer. You can find some at this site http://www.eatwild.com/.

I added some leftover yogurt to my milk and kept it at about 100 degrees for a day and got this wonderful yogurt. Yogurt is like predigested milk so even if you don't have the gene you should be fine. It is thinner than store yogurt because they add gelatin and sometimes dry milk. I saw a travel show about some country where watered down yogurt was the national drink. Might have been somewhere around the Alps. I make egg nog every morning with yogurt and raw free range eggs - just whip them together. I also add baking cocoa (bioflavinoids) and ground flax (omega-3).

If you don't have the gene or its no longer working properly you have what is called "lactose intolerance" which can cause a lot of digestive disturbances and allergic reactions. Use caution gentle fellow traveler.

How do you people get those formatting and icons up there to work?

   

[TylerDurden]

I barely understand how those icons work either.

As regards dairy, I don't think there's any specific gene. It's probably more to do with epigenetics. It's already been proven that a crappy diet followed by parents can influence the expression of genes in their children thus predisposing the latter to obesity etc.

[Satya]

How do you people get those formatting and icons up there to work?
   

What icons?

[donrad]

In the book 'Ten Thousand Years From Eden" Charles Wharton states:

    "The newborn of almost all mammals use milk sugar as an energy source, along with varying amounts of fat.. The ability to digest lactose sugar is lost at weaning, leaving many of us unable to enjoy dairy products. The digestion of milk sugar or lactose is made possible by the enzyme lactase. Although lactase is normally lost at weaning, in areas of the world where cattle and milk drinking have become part of local tradition, adults by natural selection are genetically adapted to retain the lactase enzymes ....
     Most Caucasians can handle dairy products but most Africans and Orientals cannot. Africans who herd cattle (Ibo, Masai, Dinka, Tussi, Fulani, Nuer, and Hima) are genetically milk-tolerant adults. And so are Bedouins, Saudi Arabians and the peoples of northwest India and Pakistan. In Europe the highest levels of lactase occur in the north.....South of the Alps, they range from high to intermediate, with low levels in Spain, Italy, Greece, Israel and in city-dwelling Arabs."

Raw dairy is an important source of calcium and vitamin D for lactose tolerant people and should not be excluded form the diet, especially the elderly who are susceptible to osteoporosis. If you don't know if you are genetically adapted, experiment or just say no.

This is interesting. In the book "Evolving Health" Noel Boaz says that many of the lactose tolerant populations have allergic reactions to gluten because grains were not an important part of the diet until recently. Evolution did not select out the primitive reaction of IgE immune response to plant proteins.

[donrad]

What icons?

When I do a reply, there are formatting squares and animated faces above the box I am typing in. I can not figure out how to incorporate them into my text. javascript:void(0) If I drag and drop I get text that disappears in Preview.

Well, this time I got the

text formatting to work.

  And now I figured out the faces. I need to highlight text and then click on the stuff at top. Cool 

[JaX]

My suggesstion would be to ditch the butter. The vomiting reaction is quite common when ingesting toxic substances, and is classic detox. Yes, the reaction may be minimal/nonexistent, with small amounts of raw butter, but even a small amount of a substance that harms you only slightly will lead to a drop in recovery-rate healthwise.

I don't believe that way of putting it is valid, because I also get very nauseous if I overdo animal fat (muscle fat or suet). It's harder to exaggerate with fats from animal, because they are not as liquid as butter, but it is possible. Following the "detox" idea, it would mean raw animal fat is also toxic and results in detox when eaten in too large amounts. And then you shouldn't even eat small quantities of animal fat for that reason?


I think it's possible to exaggerate with most foods, some easier than other. For ex. Fruit is much easier to exaggerate with than meat, especially the sugary hybrid fruits sold today.
I'm also surprised to read that you can go several days w/ fruit only. For me that would be horrible (way too much sugar).. I think I'd do better eating just some fatty raw cheese for a few days (if I was forced to choose just one single food group besides raw meat), even a little cooked meat that is not of the best quality , would be better than too much fruit for me.

[Nicola]

The gut is a nice warm place and the bugs live of undigested ....cheese is like glue!

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Glue-out-of-Milk

Nicola

[cyberops21]

dairy diet is good but its not considered in a balanced diet.







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[RawFoodist]

My experience with raw butter so far is it does amazing things all over EXCEPT for in my lymphatic system in which is seems to clog up dramatically. I've had problems with my lymph's now for over a year, gonna go get checked up maybe get a biopsy done too see if it's Hodgkin's. I can tell you though the butter was making the problem worse DRAMATICALLY.

Did you ever try Aajonus' lubrication formula?

Raw Butter+raw lemon juice+ raw eggs+ raw honey