Ca/Mg on a zero carb or RAF diet?

[Michael]

Following lifelong problems with candida despite 8 years of RAF, I've decided to implement the anti-candida diet specified by Bee Wilder into my eating plan.  I'll basically be staying with my RAF foods but will be totally excluding high-carb veggies, fruits, honey, dairy (I still had occasional cheese until recently) and probably nuts/seeds as I still have problems digesting them even when I shell/soak/dehydrate them myself.

I'm wondering where I'm going to get my Calcium and Magnesium from.  What do you zero-carbers do in this regard?  I recall various people on here claiming that the body's requirement of Ca/Mg has been overstated and that we get sufficient amounts from meats, organs, seafood etc but I'm not convinced this is the case as any nutritional data I've look at - even on grass-fed meat products - does not suggest this to be the case.  Where did paleo man source these essential nutrients?  Was it purely from chewing bones, bone marrow (negligible) and occasional nuts/seeds?  Magnesium, particularly, seems to be extremely difficult to source.

Nuts, seeds & cacao have been my main sources of these elements besides dairy in the past and I'm contemplating making a sesame/almond milk from soaked un-hulled sesame's and almonds as it shouldn't cause the digestive problems of eating the whole nut/seed.  Has anybody experimented with this?

I'd be very interested to hear any thoughts on these matters.

Michael

[TylerDurden]

Well, I've also gone in for soaking nuts and seeds, and it hasn't been 100% effective. However, I vehemently disagree with you re the issue of calcium:magnesium. The simple fact is that numerous scientific studies have shown that one can have great bone-/dental-health even if/despite of the fact that one is eating a diet low in calcium. The relevant studies include, among others, studies of Bantu women on low-calcium diets with lower rates of osteoporosis than Western populations etc)(vegetarians love using those studies as an example).  Similiarly, excess calcium(invariably in the form of dairy) has been shown to cause magnesium-deficiency.

The notion of eating bones for calcium makes no sense as most prey hunted by palaeolithic hunters would have been large prey like wild aurochs. Large bones are just not easily chewable even with the more solid jaws of our apemen ancestors, it's only chicken bones which are manageable.

If you're looking for sources rich in calcium, then seafood, especially shellfish such as  raw oysters, is the way to go.

[Raw Kyle]

The guidelines for nutrients don't make any sense to me. It's so simplistic and baseless to say you need "x" amount of a nutrient and not look at how other nutrients may either increase or decrease the absorption or utilization of that nutrient. With calcium clearly the dairy industry has pushed for high levels, just like how the grain industry got their foods to be the largest part of the Food Guide Pyramid.

From an historical background, if you can only get certain amounts of certain nutrients from foods like animal flesh and sparse amounts of vegetation, it doesn't make any sense that at the same time you can show that humans lived on that diet for most of their history, and also that this diet would be deficient in this or that nutrient.

Some nutrients are harder to come by than others, like Mg (depleted soils I believe) but if you eat a varied RAF diet with grassfed animals and include a good amount of wild caught seafood, I can't possibly see how you could come under the mark of what you need for superb health. If you can't get access to those foods then maybe you should supplement, but I have yet to come across someone who simply can't access those foods in an economical way. I know anyone in USA can for sure.

Have you looked at seafood for Mg?

[lex_rooker]

I'm on the same side of the fence as Tyler and Kyle.  I've been eating raw paleo for about 5 years and been zero carb eating raw grass-fed meat only, for about 3 years now.  Recent dental x-rays showed that the slow bone loss I had been exeriencing over the last 15 years or so not only stopped, but density in my jaw has increased over the past 5 years - and this on a meat only diet - supposedly deficient in calcium.

Lex

[Michael]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences on this guys.  It is exactly what I WANT to hear.  Your mentioning the dental x-rays Lex is exactly the kind of evidence I want to become aware of.  Do we have any other evidence among the group about this kind of thing?  I think it'd be really useful for a niche group such as this to fully document such revolutionary information!   I'm assuming from your comments Lex that you don't even included seafood in your diet!?  I also read elsewhere about Andrew's experiences with re-growing a tooth whilst on zero-carb which is very encouraging.

With the problems I have with nuts/seeds, I can't say that I particularly want to include them in my diet and can't see that I'd be getting much from them in the way of nutrients anyway as, of course, it's assimilation that's the important factor.  As you'll may recall from my other current post Tyler, I'm kind of shying away from oysters/seafood at the moment as I sit here still in agony and seemingly not recovering from this last insult to my digestion!    I'm not so sure I'm going to have the confidence to try them again after this episode.

Kyle, I have managed to source a reliable and high quality supplier of fatty 100% grass-fed lamb & beef over the last few months which I've been particularly enjoying.  I buy the most economical rolled breasts as they're only £5.99 per kg and contain high amounts of useful fat.  I'm also able to obtain regular amounts of raw bone marrow from this source now too which I'm very excited about too!!  I'm well aware of the problem with depleted soils and am desperate to start growing my own vegetables for this reason.  As far as seafood as a source of Mg, the nutritional tables don't seem to show it as an amazing source but, when factoring in the dairy industry overstating our daily requirements, perhaps it is sufficient.

Have any of you experienced any symptoms of CA/Mg deficiency?  During my time on RAF, I have developed quite a bad case of gingivitis which doesn't seem to be improving in addition to occasional heart pains and lower leg cramps all of which make this an important issue for me and something that I want to confidently resolve one way or another.

Thanks,
Michael

[lex_rooker]

 I'm assuming from your comments Lex that you don't even included seafood in your diet!? 

You are correct.  I pretty much eat only grass-fed beef or bison.  I add extra fat to bring calories from fat up to around 70%.

Lex

[Michael]

Wow!  That's amazing Lex.  How long have you been eating that way and what have been your experiences with it in addition to the impressive dental x-rays?

I'm slowly beginning to eat similar fare myself now.  I usually eat twice a day, a large plate of sliced fatty lamb with a spoon of bone marrow if it's available.  My lamb is very fatty but I have no idea what the calories of fat from such a meal might be.  How much extra fat do you add to your beef/bison to bring it up to 70% and, to the ignorant, how do you work that out?

I do also include a few basic vegetables to my meat/fat meals at present.  Usually just a couple of cloves of crushed garlic, chopped onion, sweet pepper and parsley and/or coriander.

Michael

[van]

  I have found good luck with cramps by using an ionic form of minerals which is from the great salt lake in Utah.  The sodium has been removed, and it is especially high in Mg.  I use drops in my drinking water, which makes it tastes great.  I think that yes, finding or hunting large animals gave bones unable to eat, but 'they' may have done as I always do, and that is grind those bones.  I use a Ferrier's flat file and consume at least a couple of tablespoons of fresh refridgerated bone powder a day.  It is low in Mg, the Mg is supposedly in the cancellous bone or softer portions which is hard to grind, for the marrow clogs up the file.  Hence, the ionic minerals with high Mg.  "they' also I think had springs or ponds etc. with high mineral content.  I watch my dog readily go for water puddles in dirt.   Also 'they' ate everything that flew, walked or crawled.  I read an account of what the Indians near texas ate.  All kinds of small vermin.  Bones and all. 

[TylerDurden]

I experienced severe dental problems(bleeding gums/teeth so loose they were on the verge of falling out with extreme pain occurring if I chewed) in the my 3rd decade, entirely due to dairy consumption. I'm pretty certain this was due to magnesium-deficiency, though I have no medical test to prove it. Within 4 months of cutting out raw dairy and going rawpalaeo, I managed to significantly improve my teeth and they became very strong after about a year into going rawpalaeo.

I doubt that it's possible to get magnesium-deficiency unless one is consuming a lot of dairy. The only ones I know of who feel the  need to take magnesium-supplements are Primal Dieters who consume plenty of dairy. If you're still worried re magnesium, I've heard that raw pumpkin seeds are one of the few foods with an extremely high magnesium: calcium ratio, which should do the trick(you can get them from the Holland and Barrett chain, albeit nonorganic).

Good to hear you've got a source of grassfed marrow.

[Michael]

Thanks Tyler.  I do recall your teeth problems from the primal diet and it's great to hear that rawpaleo has cleared these up.  Absolutely fascinating really.  This is radical stuff which, along with Lex and Andrew's dental experiences, seems to thoroughly debunk modern nutritional research/knowledge regarding Ca/Mg requirements for humans!  Surely we need to get some of this evidenced and documented?!

Thanks for the pumpkin seeds advice too.  I've been aware of pumpkin seeds as a valuable source of both Mg and Zn as far back as my vegetarian days and it is something I still incorporate occasionally at the moment.  But, as I mentioned elsewhere, I do still have digestive problems from nuts/seeds despite the fact that I shell/soak/dehydrate/grind them all myself.

Grassfed marrow, btw, is great isn't it?!   

Thanks for your suggestions van.  That's very interesting that you grind up bone as a daily supplement!  I currently do the same with egg shells occasionally and soak them overnight in lemon juice to provide a Calcium Citrate supplement but, judging by the experiences of Tyler, Lex and Andrew, perhaps this is not necessary?!

[van]

You know, I can't say if it is necessary or not.  The inuit were described as eating the soft end of bones, and once again, hunter gatherers, especially the women would look for anything that moved, and eat the whole 'animal' thus including the bones.  I think it's only 'us' that buy just steaks etc.  And then there's the info that the body can adapt to a low level of minerals and learn to absorb them very efficiently, with time?

[prehistorik]

Vegetables and fruits also contain fiber and oxalate, both of which bind calcium and inhibit its absorption. 

[Satya]

I eat dried anchovies on occasion.  They are whole and loaded with nutrition, especially minerals like Ca, Mg, Zn, P, Mn and others.  They come from the Asian market, and I am not 100% positive, but I do believe they are freeze dried raw.  It makes no sense that they would be cooked.  I would think they would fall to bits if they dried them after cooking, as they are little things.  They are a great travel snack, much like jerky or pemmican.

[Michael]

Good tip Satya, thanks!  I've just looked up some nutritional information on anchovies and, although not an amazing source of Ca/Mg, they are certainly a good source with supposedly 15% Ca and 10% Mg RDA levels per 100g.  Not that I consider RDA's of any importance whatsoever but it's a useful gauge.

I'm going to see if it's possible to buy RAW anchovies and dry them myself.  However, as a word of warning, a quick google search did just reveal this concern: http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0091-6749/PIIS0091674904006815.pdf    and   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3695304630393131784

My parasite paranoia is currently at the fore of my mind having spent the last 5 days in pain and sickness from eating raw oysters.  The symptoms have very much been those of parasite invasion despite the fact that, following 8 years on RAF, I no longer considered them a threat.  But, I am now becoming increasingly wary of ALL seafood!

[Satya]

Oh gee, Michael, lovely video!  I am a big time parasite phobe!  No one here has made fun of me for it yet, thankfully.  But this is one reason why I usually only eat raw fish that is frozen on ship.  Freezing at 0 degrees for a week will kill all parasites, including trichinosis in pigs.  So the freeze dried anchovies are safe.  But then, people like Geoff eat fresh fish with no issues whatsoever (at least he is asymptomatic  ).

[Michael]

ha ha    Yes, I noted the asymptomatic quote in the video.  It didn't help my growing paranoia!  I'm glad I'm not alone in the paranoid club.  I know good samaritan considers them a danger too.

I agree.  Freeze-dried should be fine with regard to parasite contamination.  Personally, I'm reluctant to eat frozen food due to the concerns surrounding potential damage caused by ruptured cells etc.  However, I have recently started purchasing 1kg bags of frozen shelled, de-veined shrimps for reasons of finances and convenience.  It seems that most, if not all, seafood is frozen at sea anyway so I consider my previous attempts to obtain them fresh as frivolous.

Usually, I just chop all of my fish into bitesize pieces and soak overnight in lemon juice.  I believe the acid bath is as reliable a method of killing any parasites as freezing but please correct me if I'm mistaken.  It only seems to be an issue with fish/seafood.  I certainly never marinate or freeze my meats and have felt no need to.

[bunnycat74]

Hi Michael

Since you're UK too, can you tell me where it is you're locating your rolled mutton for 5.99kg? that sounds v reasonable... I paid £12 for some mutton chops and venison at a farmer's market today!

Re the minerals- if you're getting leg cramps and heart pains that's likely to be Mg deficiency, since Mg is responsible for relaxing muscles and nerves... what about blue-green algae/chlorella/cereal grasses? These are high in Mg and trace minerals and are easily absorbed. My father has just sent me this, which you may like to take a look at...

http://www.health4youonline.com/health_supplements_aquasource_algae.htm

I know I'm new here, and the others probably know more about what nutrients you can get from animal sources, but in my experience, it is important for people with leaky gut and Candida to get adequate minerals, since our absorption of nutrients can be so substandard. You could also try trace mineral drops or Mg oil spray

http://www.betteryou.uk.com/products/?p=6&BetterYou_MagnesiumOil

You spray it on your legs or whichever area is bothering you, and it is much more rapidly absorbed and assimilated than oral sources, since it is absorbed straight through the skin. I find it amazing.

Hope this helps

Elizabeth
PS I'm assuming then you can't stomach green veg juicing? That would be an excellent way of bolstering your Ca/Mg naturally
PPS There are good techniques you can adopt to help heal the gut lining too... linseed tea is amazingly healing. Contact me if you want to know more. Might help you stop reacting so inflammatorily to foods such as seafood.

[van]

   I think I have posted this advice before,  I was lucky enough to have spent at least a couple of hours with with a very willing PHd of parasitology that worked for years in Seatle on fish parasites.  Bottom line, it's only time before you'd get two different types of worms from Fresh pacific Salmon.  One, the worm shown in the video, and a the other a tape worm that an grow to 30 feet.  After our discussions, sure enough, after looking carefully at my fresh salmon, I found two very alive worms like the ones in the video.  I then tried mincing my salmon, say about one thousand knife cuts, to shred the worms to death, and also tried blending with a hand held blender.  Eventually gave up,  really don't like salmon without mixing in a bunch of other flavorings etc.  I do believe in the value of dha, which isn't found much in meats, except for brain, coincidently I just received at my door three raw brains of cows which are loaded with dha, and am also sourcing salmon eggs, collected and flash frozen in Alaska.  Also high in dha.    Different parts of the world have different parasites for same species of fish.  And farmed tend not to have worms.  They have not had a chance to pick them up in streams, where they can originate.

[bunnycat74]

Really? So if you do eat raw salmon it's safer to get farmed? That's amazing... personally I don't like farmed salmon even cooked- the fat is mostly omega 6 vegetable oil that they fatten them with, and aren't they routinely fed antibios?

So, what happens when one eats raw salmon sushi? Does the curing of the fish kill the bugs? I do still eat this...

[Raw Kyle]

I've eaten fresh wild caught salmon, tuna and other fish for years and never had a problem with parasites. Well, not a problem that I noticed. And if I don't notice it, is it a problem?

The nutrients in farmed fish are garbage. If you're really scared of parasites then freeze your meat (including fish) for a week or so like Satya said.

[prehistorik]

Bottom line, it's only time before you'd get two different types of worms from Fresh pacific Salmon.  One, the worm shown in the video, and a the other a tape worm that an grow to 30 feet.

Wikipedia has this to say about Anisakis (the first worm you mention):

For the worm, humans are a dead-end host. Anisakis and Pseudoterranova larvae cannot survive in humans and eventually die. Treatment therefore in the vast majority of cases is symptomatic, with a heavy dose of re-assurance.

So that does not sound very harmful.  What is the other worm?

Farmed/atlantic salmon also has the disadvantage that it contains much higher levels of mercury than Alaska salmon, as I mentioned previously:
http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=17694
In any case I will not not eating wild fish (too expensive).