Only 2 of 12 Tribes Consumed ANY Dairy

[Satya]

I have always been amazed at the emphasis on dairy by the Weston A. Price Foundation.  This emphasis has many people convinced that most of the tribes Price studied consumed dairy.  This is simply not the case from his book Nutrition & Physical Degeneration (a sticky with link to the online version can be found on this particular board).  As such, I really don't feel that the foundation has adequately portrayed his work.  And really, so many people - more than half the world's population - have real problems with dairy.  Dairy is not a good food for most of us.

Using the word find from my browser, I would like to offer the following evidence (or lack thereof) from this book.

Let's see, for milk/dairy consumers we have:
Swiss - they ate the only gluten grain too, in the form of rye.  None of the tribes ate wheat
Masai - blood, milk and meat diet

For those who thrived without it we have (along with selected quotes from the book):

Gaelic - "Their isolation was so great that a young woman of about twenty years of age who came to the Isle of Harris from Taransay Island had never seen milk in any larger quantity than drops. There are no dairy animals on that island. Their nutrition is provided by their oat products and fish, and by a very limited amount of vegetable foods. Lobsters and flat fish are a very important part of their foods. Fruits are practically unknown. Yet the physiques of these people are remarkably fine."

Eskimos - "Notwithstanding the very inhospitable part of the world in which they reside, with nine or ten months of winter and only two or three of summer, and in spite of the absence for long periods of plant foods and dairy products and eggs, the Eskimos were able to provide their bodies with all the mineral and vitamin requirements from sea foods, stored greens and berries and plants from the sea."  (Many explorers have noted the dairy free state of isolated Inuit.)

Plains Indians - "The rigorous winters reach seventy degrees below zero. This precludes the possibility of maintaining dairy animals or growing seed cereals or fruits. "

Melanesian - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter

Polynesian - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter

Australians - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter except about the poor Aborigines who had inadequate breast milk from residing in the government camp with crappy foods.  Price fed the babies condensed milk and they recovered somewhat.  Sad story.

Torres Strait islanders - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter

Maori - The only thing Price says about dairy in this chapter is, "The most important industries of New Zealand are dairy products, and sheep raising for wool."  That's it.  These people ate fish, and seafood was the main commonality between his natives, not dairy.

Peruvians - "The physical perfection and development of the present and past Andean population has been accomplished in spite of the difficulty of building and maintaining good bodily structure at the high altitude where dairy products have not been and are not at present a large part of the nutritional program. "

[TylerDurden]

Yes, that's a good point. I realise the main reason why the WAPF etc. promote raw dairy is because raw dairy is considered a more tasty dish than any other raw animal foods, so they don't want to overly promote raw meats as that would lessen their appeal re the public.

[Raw Kyle]

USA is a very dairy driven country, which it gets from England. I think that's why he emphasized it so much; also because at that time people were just starting to replace butter with margarine and he wanted to make a case that margarine doesn't have the nutrients that butter does, which is true. He didn't even realize all the ways in which margarine and plant oils in general are worse than animal fats like butter, but he knew enough to make it a large point in his book. Also he pushes the idea of high vitamin butter oil as an easy way to make up for nutrients not present in the modern diet.

[Satya]

Interestingly, I think the tide may be turning against dairy within the WAPF.  I was watching a WAPF conference dvd (pretty sure it is last year's west coast conference) about preparing stocks and slow cooked meals.  Jessica Prentice mentioned a few times that she does not use butter, whey or other dairy products at her kitchen because so many people have problems with dairy.

@ Kyle.  Well, Dr. Price did mention the importance of spring butter and spring butter oil, but these were very seasonal foods - available only in spring!  I'd love to search grains the same way and see how many tribes consumed them.  I am pretty darn sure that the Swiss were the only ones to eat a gluten grain, in the form of rye bread.  The Scots ate oats and the Andes tribes ate quinoa.  The one thing Price found common to most if not all (?) was the great lengths people went to to obtain seafoods.  Even inland tribes would travel to the sea once or twice a year and dry seafood for long term storage.

[RawZi]

USA is a very dairy driven country, which it gets from England. ...

    http://gnowfglins.com/2010/01/11/rfqm-devil-in-the-milk/

Attached to position 67, and part of the large chain of 229, is a side chain of seven amino acids called BCM 7, which is a powerful opiate.

“The side chain that comes off amino acid 67 is called BCM 7. .. a small protein [which] is a very powerful opiate and which has some undesirable effects on animals and humans.”

The amino acid at position 67 is different depending on if the cow is A1 or A2. The old-fashioned A2 cows carry the original amino acid, proline, which bonds strongly to BCM 7.

“… proline has a strong bond to BCM 7 which helps keep it from getting into the milk, so that essentially no BCM 7 is found in the urine, blood or GI tract of old-fashioned A2 cows.”

If an A1 cow, the histidine (the mutated protein) doesn’t hold so tightly to BCM 7.

“… histidine, the mutated protein, only weakly holds on to BCM 7, so it is liberated in the GI tract of animals and humans who drink A1 cow milk.”

Keith Woodford links the liberated BCM 7 to many serious health issues. Again, quoting Dr. Cowan:

“… the opiate BCM 7 can cause neurological impairment in animals and people exposed to it, especially autistic and schizophrenic changes. BCM 7 interferes with the immune response, and injecting BCM 7 into animal models has been shown to provoke Type 1 diabetes. Dr. Woodford presents research showing a direct correlation between a population’s exposure to A1 cow’s milk and the incidence of auto-immune disease, heart disease (BCM 7 has a pro-inflammatory effect on the blood vessels), type-1 diabetes, autism, and schizophrenia.”

In America, most of our dairy cows are A1 cows – the modern Holstein. Keith Woodford found that:

“When you take A1 cow milk away, and stimulate our own endorphin production instead of via the toxic opiate BCM 7, some amazing health benefits ensue.”

    Maybe that's integrally related to why England took the part they did in the Chinese Opium Wars.

THE CHINESE OPIUM WARS:
The Queen of England Pushes Dope

Although the Chinese had used opium as a medicine, there was no widespread addiction before the British arrived. The Portuguese had smuggled some opium to China. The first major shipment of opium, was arranged in 1781, by the Company's Governor-General, Warren Hastings, who described opium as a ``pernicious'' commodity, ``which the wisdom of the Government should carefully restrain from internal consumption.'' It was a financial disaster. The opium was brought to Canton, the only city where the Chinese allowed foreigners to trade. The Chinese showed little interest, so the ship left without selling its opium. The Company lost a quarter-of-a-million dollars.

[tslate]

<<Dairy is not a good food for most of us.>>

You're making sensational statements without proper research.  First it's a real stretch to conclude how Price did or did not represent dairy, including the foundation.  You'll have to dig much deeper to find some sort of conspiracy regarding raw dairy,etc.

The issue with dairy is pasteurized, plain and simple.  Proclaiming that all peoples have issues with dairy is again without merit since all of WAPF regards raw consumption only which if you did the research you'd soon discover that those who had problems on pasteurized dairy can and do easily consume raw dairy with no problems.

Regardless of the history, usage, and pseudo-experts claims (most of the paleo community) raw dairy is very good for you.  If you research you'll find that raw dairy contains many factors that are very hard to find in todays environments in an easy assimilable way.  To state that Eskimos don't consume it is the samething as saying that none of us eat polar bear or seal either.  And how many cultures had available cod liver oil?  Price, is no different than today's health community that prescribes many supplements for this or that (except his advice/supplements work).  CLO and butter oil(dairy) were both used by Price to great effect.  I think his research is far more benign than you're willing to give credit for. 

Do the research and then lecture us on the problems with raw dairy, if you can find them.  And just why should I trust all the pseudo-experts crawling out of the woodwork to sell books on the paleo or prehistoric diet when in fact most of it is just made up and sensationalized.

If you can find a good source of grass-fed raw dairy, then great if you can't doesn't mean it's bad for you. 

[cherimoya_kid]

<<Dairy is not a good food for most of us.>>

You're making sensational statements without proper research.  First it's a real stretch to conclude how Price did or did not represent dairy, including the foundation.  You'll have to dig much deeper to find some sort of conspiracy regarding raw dairy,etc.

The issue with dairy is pasteurized, plain and simple.  Proclaiming that all peoples have issues with dairy is again without merit since all of WAPF regards raw consumption only which if you did the research you'd soon discover that those who had problems on pasteurized dairy can and do easily consume raw dairy with no problems.

Regardless of the history, usage, and pseudo-experts claims (most of the paleo community) raw dairy is very good for you.  If you research you'll find that raw dairy contains many factors that are very hard to find in todays environments in an easy assimilable way.  To state that Eskimos don't consume it is the samething as saying that none of us eat polar bear or seal either.  And how many cultures had available cod liver oil?  Price, is no different than today's health community that prescribes many supplements for this or that (except his advice/supplements work).  CLO and butter oil(dairy) were both used by Price to great effect.  I think his research is far more benign than you're willing to give credit for.  

Do the research and then lecture us on the problems with raw dairy, if you can find them.  And just why should I trust all the pseudo-experts crawling out of the woodwork to sell books on the paleo or prehistoric diet when in fact most of it is just made up and sensationalized.

If you can find a good source of grass-fed raw dairy, then great if you can't doesn't mean it's bad for you.  

I myself have had so-so experiences with raw dairy.  I still eat it, but I might stop, depending on my blood test results over the next few months/years.  However--

 You may want to read some of TylerDurden's posts about his bad experiences with raw dairy. Let me clue you in--he's about to rip you a new one, and not gently. It's going to hurt.  Welcome to the rawpaleo forum.  We're not always gentle, but...we know our stuff.

[TylerDurden]

Under normal circumstances, I would indeed start ripping the previous posts advocating raw dairy, especially given the fact that it is THE no1 health-issue among the vast majority of RVAFers re certain truly horrific health-problems re hormone-disruption, magnesium-deficiency etc. etc.. However, this is the primal diet forum of the rawpaleoforum board, so I'm prepared to be gentle for now. Outside that forum, I will be 100% thunderous in my denunciation of AV's and Weston-Price's notoriously dodgy pro-raw dairy theories. I view these 2 gurus as satanic figures.

[cherimoya_kid]

Under normal circumstances, I would indeed start ripping the previous posts advocating raw dairy, especially given the fact that it is THE no1 health-issue among the vast majority of RVAFers re certain truly horrific health-problems re hormone-disruption, magnesium-deficiency etc. etc.. However, this is the primal diet forum of the rawpaleoforum board, so I'm prepared to be gentle for now. Outside that forum, I will be 100% thunderous in my denunciation of AV's and Weston-Price's notoriously dodgy pro-raw dairy theories. I view these 2 gurus as satanic figures.

I have to agree that raw dairy does seem to have caused some tooth problems for me...nothing like what's happened to you from eating it, but it's not that great for my teeth, relative to scallops/clams, or probably even grass-fed meat, or any other animal product, probably.

[TylerDurden]

I have to agree that raw dairy does seem to have caused some tooth problems for me...nothing like what's happened to you from eating it, but it's not that great for my teeth, relative to scallops/clams, or probably even grass-fed meat, or any other animal product, probably.

  This is the sort of thing I generally hear from long-term RVAFers. At first, a number of them protest that they do OK or fine on small amounts of raw dairy, but eventually, they invariably admit, in the long-term,  that raw dairy does some harm along the way.

[van]

First,  I'm  off dairy, even though I have over 15 goats now for many years.   Half the truth of dairy is that without the right gut flora you won't digest the lactose.  But those bacteria can be built up by eating small amounts and supplementing with probiotics.  I even did implants with extremely high counts of many different forms of probiotics.  Could say more if anyone is interested.   The next half,  is is your milk coming from either cow or preferably goats eating  GREEN grass and weeds, bushes, etc.  And not just grass that may be brown,  cut, processed.   Most dairy consuming cultures almost always culture their milk in some way or another,  hence, cheese, yogurt, kefir etc.....   It is VERY hard to meet all these requirements, yet when milk was used as in Switzerland all the requirements were met routinely.  For example, when winter came and green grass and summer had passed, the mountain people dried up their animals till they gave birth in spring when the grasses were green again.  They relied on their cultured cheeses and butter over the winter. It's only in 'our' attempts to shortcut the process that we've messed with natures formula that has historically built some pretty strong individuals with the milk collected from animals.

[roony]

  This is the sort of thing I generally hear from long-term RVAFers. At first, a number of them protest that they do OK or fine on small amounts of raw dairy, but eventually, they invariably admit, in the long-term,  that raw dairy does some harm along the way.

What about long term use of raw kefir?

[TylerDurden]

What about long term use of raw kefir?

Even in that case, I've heard of people complaining of side-effects over the years.

[cherimoya_kid]

I love raw kefir.  I eat it maybe 3-4 days a week.  I'm sure it's not for everyone, though.

[NaturalHealthDoctor]

First,  I'm  off dairy, even though I have over 15 goats now for many years.   Half the truth of dairy is that without the right gut flora you won't digest the lactose.  But those bacteria can be built up by eating small amounts and supplementing with probiotics.  I even did implants with extremely high counts of many different forms of probiotics.  Could say more if anyone is interested.   The next half,  is is your milk coming from either cow or preferably goats eating  GREEN grass and weeds, bushes, etc.  And not just grass that may be brown,  cut, processed.   Most dairy consuming cultures almost always culture their milk in some way or another,  hence, cheese, yogurt, kefir etc.....   It is VERY hard to meet all these requirements, yet when milk was used as in Switzerland all the requirements were met routinely.  For example, when winter came and green grass and summer had passed, the mountain people dried up their animals till they gave birth in spring when the grasses were green again.  They relied on their cultured cheeses and butter over the winter. It's only in 'our' attempts to shortcut the process that we've messed with natures formula that has historically built some pretty strong individuals with the milk collected from animals.

I have to tell you that as a Physician, I have tried raw grass fed milk with hundreds of lactose intolerant patients and up to this point every single on eof them had no complaints with raw dairy.  Lactase does occur naturally in raw milk.  I have even had people with so called milk allergies do fine with raw dairy.  That is my experience, I have heard different stories from others. 

[TylerDurden]

I have to tell you that as a Physician, I have tried raw grass fed milk with hundreds of lactose intolerant patients and up to this point every single on eof them had no complaints with raw dairy.  Lactase does occur naturally in raw milk.  I have even had people with so called milk allergies do fine with raw dairy.  That is my experience, I have heard different stories from others.  

 I have come across plenty of people who've had lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy. Some couldn't even handle the minimal lactose in raw butter. But there's also the issue of casein-intolerance, problems with the hormones in raw dairy, and the awkward calcium/magnesium ratio(which has led to magnesium-deficiency in some of those who claimed to be fine on raw dairy)

[Brother]

  This is the sort of thing I generally hear from long-term RVAFers. At first, a number of them protest that they do OK or fine on small amounts of raw dairy, but eventually, they invariably admit, in the long-term,  that raw dairy does some harm along the way.

I find this pretty hard to believe since I know atleast a couple of RAF bodybuilders who drink a lot of it, has done so for years and who are doing very well on it. Or rather, not so much milk as raw cream and butter. I would not want to cut mine entirely since my evergy levels and strength are higher when I have it in my diet. My only problem that I have with it, is that I am not that keen on the taste of milk. Vince Gironda, Frank zane, Armand Tanny et all. These early BB guru's was with few exceptions (like LaLanne, Bill pearl) all raw carnivores and all heavy milk drinkers. All of them got to see old age (zane still is) and they all kept doing the iron game untill the end in good health.

It is a curious thing. Dairy.

[TylerDurden]

I find this pretty hard to believe since I know atleast a couple of RAF bodybuilders who drink a lot of it, has done so for years and who are doing very well on it. Or rather, not so much milk as raw cream and butter. I would not want to cut mine entirely since my evergy levels and strength are higher when I have it in my diet. My only problem that I have with it, is that I am not that keen on the taste of milk. Vince Gironda, Frank zane, Armand Tanny et all. These early BB guru's was with few exceptions (like LaLanne, Bill pearl) all raw carnivores and all heavy milk drinkers. All of them got to see old age (zane still is) and they all kept doing the iron game untill the end in good health.

It is a curious thing. Dairy.

I didn't suggest all those with raw dairy were like that just many of them. As for raw carnivores mention, I have my doubts as few bodybuilders, even the raw-eating ones, were that rawpalaeo, with many such as Lalanne actually being cited as being vegetarian mainly etc.(eg:-
 "Jack LaLanne begins each and every day with 50 grams of soy protein. The Jack LaLanne diet is not completely vegetarian, but he doesn't eat chicken, red meat or white sugar. He gets most of his protein from egg whites, soy protein and occasionally fish.

The Jack LaLanne diet is not a low-carb diet, but he does stick strictly to natural grains such as brown rice and whole wheat.

LaLanne also eats at least ten fresh, raw vegetables a day. He hasn't had dessert since 1929 and never eats between meals or after 9 p.m."
 taken from:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne

I don't doubt that a few people are genetically adapted to raw dairy and might well live till old age(but probably with brittle bones like many dairy-drinkers) -plus, building up enough muscle prevents falls which are the prime reason why older people suffer accicidents and live less long as they make the mistake of not building up their muscles.. There are plenty of SAD-eaters who live till old age, anyway, so diet isn't a factor re lifespan as such.

[Brother]

Thanks for clearing that up TD. As for bodybuilders. Bill Pearl and Lalanne was both vegetarians, but both seems to forget that while they where building muscle, both of them ate red meat and LaLanne even drank blood. Check out Armand Tanny for an iconic all raw BB'er.  

edit: for further reading: http://www.hulsestrength.com/history-bodybuilding-nutrition/.html

[majormark]

I don't doubt that a few people are genetically adapted to raw dairy and might well live till old age(but probably with brittle bones like many dairy-drinkers)..

How did you came to this conclusion?

Do you have an estimate on how many people you've seen (on internet or in person) reporting brittle bones while drinking raw milk?

[cliff]

How did you came to this conclusion?

Do you have an estimate on how many people you've seen (on internet or in person) reporting brittle bones while drinking raw milk?

Seriously, I see you with this dairy propaganda all the time tyler.  I understand it didn't work for you and may have caused health declines but guess what it actually does work for some people.  The propaganda you spew is akin to the vegans, come on dude.

[raw-al]

Seriously, I see you with this dairy propaganda all the time tyler.  I understand it didn't work for you and may have caused health declines but guess what it actually does work for some people.  The propaganda you spew is akin to the vegans, come on dude.

Thanks for that Cliff,

Tyler,
What is point in ragging on dairy constantly? There is no doubt that modern milk production and cattle breeding has had a deleterious effect on the currently available dairy as well as the fact that dairy as one poster said nowadays is available 12 months of the year which is not anything approaching normal, however the same can be said about meat production.

Ancient societies probably didn't have a lot of milk in their diet although no one here can say anything for sure.

I realize that living in a large urban area where I understand you do you, may not be familiar, but farm animals are not grown in anyway that can be even remotely compared with the animals that a paleo society presumably lived on regardless of what you have been told by your food sources. They are all overfed in a metered way according to their farmers "methods" on a limited diet based on being stuck in a small space and kept in warm cozy barns out of the weather all winter and away from any predators or natural culling. Even if your meat is grassfed and chemical free, it ain't natural by any stretch.

I hear you and others talking about getting oils and supplements and foods mailed to you, stuff trucked great distance. Dah... that's certainly the way paleo man lived. Sounds to me there is a certain amount of indoctination into a religion going on here.

Milk happens to be available, tasty to a lot of people and nutritious (despite your incredibly exaggerated claims).

There are some people who have a hard time tolerating meat and eggs and just about every imaginable fruit, vegetable, grain etc. That doesn't mean that everybody should give up meat, eggs, milk and every imaginable fruit, vegetable, grain etc.

Personally I can tolerate small amounts of meat and I am not going to force feed myself because TD is convinced we all should eat like him.

Nowadays with globalization, food breeding and travel we all eat diets that would make our ancestors gag. The foods our ancestors ate in most cases no longer exist. They have been bred out of existence.

[TylerDurden]

How did you came to this conclusion?

Do you have an estimate on how many people you've seen (on internet or in person) reporting brittle bones while drinking raw milk?

Not specifically re raw milk but there are studies linking dairy-consumption to osteoporosis. As regards raw milk, it's complicated as people experience a very wide variety of symptoms, with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc.

My reason for citing the brittle bones issue re raw dairy is that it was openly admitted by some long-term Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet yahoo group that they deliberately ate magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency. These were people who did fine with raw dairy as regards having no allergies. Plus, a sizeable proportion of those who do badly on raw dairy have issues re teeth etc. Can't be sure re exact estimates as no real count has been made of RVAFers in general etc.  Once one includes both those who do badly on raw dairy plus all those who lie to themselves and pretend that issues with raw dairy are solely due to "detox", the figures become even higher.

[TylerDurden]

Seriously, I see you with this dairy propaganda all the time tyler.  I understand it didn't work for you and may have caused health declines but guess what it actually does work for some people.  The propaganda you spew is akin to the vegans, come on dude.

Not mere  propaganda, it is a simple fact that raw dairy is THE food most commonly reported by RVAFers as causing minor to life-threatening health-problems.

[TylerDurden]

Raw-al, your points are seriously flawed. Your comment re raw milk being more healthy in the Palaeolithic is irrelevant as people in the Palaeolithic era never drank raw milk to any extent, given no domestication at the time. Besides, blaming all issues on modern intensive-farming methods is absurd when most of those who buy raw dairy get it from farms which avoid intensive farming such as organic farms, grassfed meat farms etc.

Citing examples re meat-intolerance is also irrelevant as raw-dairy-issues are far more reported than issues with raw carbs or raw meats or raw veggie-juice or whatever. Issues with raw meats are incredibly rare, while issues with raw dairy are all too common. Which is why it is essential to make this clear so that people can avoid months or years of hell re experimentation before they finally realise that raw dairy is a disaster for their health.