Author Topic: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here  (Read 7442 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« on: October 28, 2014, 07:26:27 am »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2809900/World-War-Three-NO-effect-global-population-study-claims.html


The only thing that gives me some solace is that their notion that WW3 would involve casualties consisting of the combined total of WW1 and WW2 casualties is highly unlikely. I mean, if all ABC weapons were used by all countries, I could easily expect  for a 99%+ extinction of all human beings thus allowing regrowth of species currently  doomed to extinction. What we humans need is a return to palaeolithic principles such as survival of the fittest. If we had to endure the same "laws of the jungle" as wild animals, we would be a healthier species, both physically and mentally, and perhaps even contribute environmentally in a positive way  to this planet.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 01:16:56 am by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Brad462

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 10:05:31 am »
Let's hope and pray it doesn't come to that.  And survival of the fittest isn't my principle.  What happened to love thy neighbor? 
I'm actually a really nice guy, once you get to blow me.

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 03:27:06 pm »
"Love thy neighbour" is not a survival strategy and is not really a solid part of Nature.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 03:46:48 pm »
You know that "survival of the fittest" isn't the only rule that applies in the wild, especially if you're talking about "survival of the biggest/ strongest". Wisdom, charism (social skills), knowledge, they also contribute to the survival of the group, as much as strength or speed. That's why the oldest female cat is usually the clan leader,  and I'm sure we can find such examples of Alpha males/ females not necessarily being the strongest members of the group, in other species.

Remember a time when elders where actually valued by society for their life experience  :P?

Of course nowadays It's different, moral/ social/ life values of our Grandparents, and society as a whole, needs to be reconsidered. I mean, don't count on your grandparents to tell you about raw paleo diet and stuff  :D
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 04:34:58 pm by JeuneKoq »

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2014, 04:13:26 pm »
"Love thy neighbour" is not a survival strategy and is not really a solid part of Nature.
"Love thy neighbour" is a VERY important survival strategy  :o!!!!
When two solitary male adolescent lions cross each other's way, they will stick together and start displaying behaviors associated with very strong friendship. It can even get to the point of gay love, before they finally find some females or another clan of lions. This "love" urges the two lions to stick together and look after one another, with more ardor and commitment than if they were simply acquaintances.
Alone, these lions would've had a much smaller chance of surviving.

Thus, "love thy neighbour" can sometimes be looked upon as a very important survival tactic.

note: a natural survival tactic rarely is the work of the conscious mind, as we can see in this situation. One lion doesn't decide to love another lion. It's all very intuitive.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 04:18:56 pm by JeuneKoq »

Offline nummi

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 06:12:28 pm »
"Love thy neighbour" is not a survival strategy and is not really a solid part of Nature.
It actually is. You think all this we have, including our own lives and survival, came from individual effort? It came from working together. If there never was "love thy neighbour" in actual practice none of us would even exist!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 06:41:06 pm »
It actually is. You think all this we have, including our own lives and survival, came from individual effort? It came from working together. If there never was "love thy neighbour" in actual practice none of us would even exist!
I disagree. I reckon survival of the fittest was a bigger impulse, at least  in palaeo times. I agree, though, that civilisation requires far more of the "love thy neighbour" guff  in order to survive.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 06:59:23 pm »
I disagree. I reckon survival of the fittest was a bigger impulse, at least  in palaeo times. I agree, though, that civilisation requires far more of the "love thy neighbour" guff  in order to survive.
Tell me how these two scenario ends:

-A physically strong, lone lion attacks 4 not-so-strong hippos (granted they stick with each other, and instead of running away in fear when one of them gets attacked, they fight back). Who's likely to win?

- 4 not-so-strong lions attack a single strong hippo. Who's likely to win?


"Love thy neighbour" is either as strong an impulse, or stronger, than being the individual fittest. Because two 80% forces combined is stronger than one single 100% force. Plus you have the undeniable favor of attacking from several angles. That's only one of the many reasons why, when confronted to a danger exterior to the clan, number counts for more than individual strength.

reminder : hippos DO kill lions when they need to defend their lives!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:00:45 pm by JeuneKoq »

Offline Iguana

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 08:02:52 pm »
Yes, obviously cooperation makes you stronger and resistant, more fit, and thus it gives you more chances to survive. Cooperation is even common between different species of animals and I fail to see why it wouldn't have been the same in paleo times.

There's no antagonism at all between survival of the fittest and strong social links / cooperation between neighbors. On the contrary these work together, reinforcing each other. Stupid modern humans should relearn that, something which has certainly been lost with agriculture and animals domestication in Neolithic times.  :(
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 08:43:31 pm »
Survival of the strongest may be a more appropriate phrase. Male lions incidentally routinely kill the offspring of other defeated  male lions in order to get the female lions pregnant with their own offspring. They also have  rivalries within the group  where they kick out the losers from their  group.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline nummi

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 08:53:49 pm »
I disagree. I reckon survival of the fittest was a bigger impulse, at least  in palaeo times. I agree, though, that civilisation requires far more of the "love thy neighbour" guff  in order to survive.
There is nothing to disagree or agree with, as it is obvious - the truth of it is right in front of you and me and everyone else. So if you cannot recognize it, never mind what should follow, then the question is "why can't you recognize it?"
So, why can you not recognize the simple truth that among the species on earth "love thy neighbour" is fundamental to survival?

Strength of one or another is absolutely irrelevant, as both are absolutely necessary! You remove either, and leave the other, and eventually it leads to total extinction. So, obviously, there even isn't a question "which one is 'stronger'?" because both are necessary.

This also begs another question - why are you concentrating on the completely wrong aspects (that in actual truth have nothing to do with the reality of how our world works)?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2014, 06:08:53 am »
There is nothing to disagree or agree with, as it is obvious - the truth of it is right in front of you and me and everyone else. So if you cannot recognize it, never mind what should follow, then the question is "why can't you recognize it?"
So, why can you not recognize the simple truth that among the species on earth "love thy neighbour" is fundamental to survival?

Strength of one or another is absolutely irrelevant, as both are absolutely necessary! You remove either, and leave the other, and eventually it leads to total extinction. So, obviously, there even isn't a question "which one is 'stronger'?" because both are necessary.

This also begs another question - why are you concentrating on the completely wrong aspects (that in actual truth have nothing to do with the reality of how our world works)?
Well, I see your point in that most but not all species, however deadly, try to look after their young  in some way so as to better spread their DNA. So, love thy neighbour could be seen as being a useful  and indeed  much-needed trait, it is just that I view it as being far less effective re survival  than the survival of the fittest notion.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2014, 07:06:44 am »
So many ways for the world to go... who is to really know....

Many of the natural laws which before the rise of man governed over life upon this planet have been broken. Man has worked in cooperation with his tribesmen, and now continues to work within the global village to decouple from natures way and gain the ultimate advantage in the game of survival.

Perhaps these growing imbalances caused by mankind's relentless effort to control his environment to its own will and luxury, is detrimental to the overall well being of the planet. Perhaps the next phase of human overgrowth may lead to the destroying what we sentimentally refer to as "humanity" as well as everything precious in nature with it. If so then so be it, who are we to stop it?

Though I purpose a more positivist view, that a human overgrowth of great magnitude will in time elicit the response of nature to bring things back to balance naturally without need for conscious interference. There was a great time of calamity early in earths history when oxygen producing microbes took over and completely changed the earths atmosphere causing massive die-offs of other primitive lifeforms, but from the decay of countless dead lifeforms there rose up new forms of life which quickly re-balance the ecosystem and transformed this planet into the haven for life it is.  Now let us apply the evolution of biology to the evolution of consciousness( for as is above so is below) It may take the emergence of billions of enlightened organisms who reach a point of crisis in order to act as a catalyst for the next quantum leap in the evolution of our species, which is the evolution of consciousness.

The next stage of evolution has yet to be written and the possibilities are endless. Imagine a group of intelligent beings billions in number that can tune into higher levels of perception and  perhaps even master the ability to alter their own genetic expression by sheer power of will. For this to happen it may take the death of billions before nature can find the proper solution to bring us back in balance, But those billions of humans(and the trillions of organisms we have consumed along the way) would not have lived nor died in vain and through the efforts of a collective humanity, the dreams, aspirations, creativity and love of "life" will live on so long as humans are still free to evolve "with minimal obstruction."

The population crisis which may lead to a "global catastrophe" that may spark this quantum evolution in consciousnesses will not occurs if the population control protocols are put into place. The point of crisis where there is no other way out but to evolve will not be reached and what we will have is a Malthusian world full of cowardly, slowly degenerating, corporate slaves who lack the spirit of life needed to evolve, and will allow themselves to be culled at the whims of a machine.  In this case the world would end with a whimper.

Consider the irony of the Twelve monkeys scenario, in which the future scientist who try to prevent the annihilation of humanity by a misrepresented threat, through direct intervention, are actually the cause of the annihilation they were attempting to prevent. 

What I also see not being represented in these discussions is the ideas about the power of the collective human mind. The total power of the collected consciousnesses of 9 billion human minds which are becoming more and more entangled into some kind of pantheistic matrix that is beyond anyone to ever comprehend is a universe in itself, and any talk of culling off excess population should take into consideration the effects that such interventionism would have on the universal mind of man. In this world of population control there is the very real possibility that mankind will be shackled and ruled over by some kind of artificially contrived machine men with machine minds who will use the cooperate slave state system( now being built) to run everyone into the ground without care for our biological bodies or the delicate balance of our genetic integrity or the earths ecosystems. This so called remedy of population control may in fact further decouple the human race from its umbilical roots may and will lead to a future world where life as we know it will not exist.

Or perhaps some deep seated primordial instinct will reactivate in mass at the critical moment and with the cooperation of an entire planet of interconnected, and awakened people, a spark will set fire to the minds of men and a shift in the mass consciousness will lead us into the age of Aquarius.

But alas how can anyone know for sure what the future of mankind will have in store.






















« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 07:39:34 am by sabertooth »
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Offline nummi

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2014, 03:17:25 pm »
Well, I see your point in that most but not all species, however deadly, try to look after their young  in some way so as to better spread their DNA. So, love thy neighbour could be seen as being a useful  and indeed  much-needed trait, it is just that I view it as being far less effective re survival  than the survival of the fittest notion.
No, you don't see the point, obviously never have either, for if you did you wouldn't write such apologetic nonsense trying to "excuse" yourself and thus avoid the issue. You do not see the point, so don't lie and say that you do. You don't, you don't even try.
Not once did I say anything specifically about the young. Plus, you are completely missing the point of "both are absolutely essential". Which one is more effective or stronger is 100% irrelevant.
I was trying to point out the flawed "reasoning" of yours by shedding directions from logic onto your nonsense and showing how you bring out things that are irrelevant and actually don't accord reality, but obviously you lack the faculties to notice this.
You've been posting such illogical and messed up nonsense here for quite some time now, and its not limited to just one or a few areas... you've got the world figured out into quite a mess in your mind. Would be nice if you noticed it yourself... I expect people to have at least some inkling of logic and "common sense", or such, but you persistently are avoiding those from coming into effect in yourself as you demonstrate through the nonsense you keep posting without correcting yourself. People correct their mistakes when they notice them - it's one aspect of who we are, we do not like to make mistakes if we can help it. So I suppose the problem might lie in "why can you not notice yourself"?

From someone who eats raw meat... I expect far more mentally, for one would not be so small and narrow and short minded for many obvious reasons (as in fact I see others here exhibit of not being). But you are anomalous, and not in any good way (far too many signs of actually being a "shill").

-------------------------------------
Anyway, on topic, the article is absolute nonsense for the obvious reason that it leaves out, well, everything actually relevant and actually truthful, and there's a lot of it.
World wars are not some "natural things that simply occur", they are all, each and every one, designed decades in advance with specific goals! If the goal is not population reduction by 90% or more, or whatever, then it won't happen either.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2014, 03:39:52 pm »
Well, now you are certainly trolling!  :P l)

The reference to the young was merely an illustration on my part,  not a  direct reference to your own past  "nonsense" comments. Considering the vast number of absurd conspiracy theories you clearly do believe in, given past posts,  you really should have a close look at your own illogic.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2014, 04:18:37 pm »
nummi,

Tyler is no shill.  Tyler aka Geoff Purcell is the primary instigator / global moderator of the collective raw paleo diet yahoo groups and this forum.  (He started this forum and continuously manages this forum.)

Tyler actually believes in this stuff and other ideas.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 04:31:09 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2014, 07:49:24 pm »
Survival of the strongest may be a more appropriate phrase. Male lions incidentally routinely kill the offspring of other defeated  male lions in order to get the female lions pregnant with their own offspring. They also have  rivalries within the group  where they kick out the losers from their  group.

I see what you mean. In some species (if not most), being the strongest assures you high status within the group, therefor your chances of matting and passing on your genes are higher, especially when part of a specie where only the Alpha is allowed to reproduce. This is the case for wolfs. But how do humans determine their Alpha male/female?

According to wikipedia, on Alpha male/female : "Alphas may achieve their status by means of superior physical prowess and/or through social efforts and building alliances within the group."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(ethology)

So there is strength, but there's also social bonding, alliances, number, "love thy neighbour".

Given the fact that composing a clear picture of human's natural, intuitive social ranking system is a nearly impossible task, I give you instead some portraits of Alpha individuals in species close to ours, and the way these individual reach this position:

-The chimpanzees:
"The alpha male is the highest-ranking male that controls the group and maintains order during disputes. In chimpanzee society, the 'dominant male' sometimes is not the largest or strongest male but rather the most manipulative and political male that can influence the goings on within a group. Male chimpanzees typically attain dominance by cultivating allies who will support that individual during future ambitions for power. The alpha male regularly displays by puffing his normally slim coat up to increase view size and charge to seem as threatening and as powerful as possible; this behavior serves to intimidate other members and thereby maintain power and authority, and it may be fundamental to the alpha male's holding on to his status."

-The bonobos :
"Most studies indicate that females have a higher social status in bonobo society. Aggressive encounters between males and females are rare, and males are tolerant of infants and juveniles. A male derives his status from the status of his mother. The mother–son bond often stays strong and continues throughout life. While social hierarchies do exist, rank plays a less prominent role than in other primate societies."
Nothing said about who's the Alpha male/ female however. Probably because it doesn't matter that much to them  ;)

I'm very aware that this does not ultimately show how important social linking is compared to strength in human communities regarding social ranking, but given the fact that we are highly social animals, with a sex drive not only aimed towards sole reproduction, but also pleasure and social bonding, our natural capacity to express ourself through speech...


Now, regarding dangers that are exterior to the clan's own internal affairs: How is plurality a far less effective survival trait than individual strength!? Of course, both are needed, but it is very, very obvious that one surpasses the other, when taken from a same reference point ( not 2 mices vs 1 elephant, but 1 very strong lion against two slightly weaker lions). Within these criterions, plurality is advantageous not only when fighting back an aggressor. It's also much more effective when searching for food, or hunting.



« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 03:32:48 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline sabertooth

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2014, 03:34:48 am »
Human beings inherently possess a mixed bag of traits which have evolved through and been finessed over the generations into the specimens we are today. Our ancestors at one time or another where forced to be fierce and fit as well as kind and compassionate, depending on whatever the emerging environment required. This flexibility of our characteristic human traits has been a great advantage and continues to serve those who can use such great powers wisely

Much of what I feel to be true in regards to human nature is speculative musing of an esoteric mind, but much of what I believe seems feasible enough to my own mind to share.....

Great rifts between these opposing sides of human nature can be seen to rise and fall throughout our evolution, they are as present in the homo sapiens of today as they were in our primitive ancestors. Perhaps not long after our split from the chimps and bonobos, our ancestors developed a strong taste for raw flesh, which lead them to use primitive weapons to kill and eat whatever they could, including other subgroups of primates. At the same time there was a huge sociological evolution which extremely altered the degree by which we viewed and interact with others of our own kind. This lead to much stronger egalitarian tendencies of kinship, brotherhood and sisterhood. We must have inherited both the capacity for male dominance hierarchy of the chimps, as well as the free love feminine matriarchal traits of the bonobos, and its only a question of environmental conditioning to determine which traits become active and which remain latent.

Constant shifts and upsets of the balance between our benevolent bonobo nature and our cannibalistic male dominance chimp nature happened within the paleolithic era. During that time the survival of the fittest instinct as well as the survival of those with the friendliest disposition, were equally important to many of our ancestral tribes people.( There may even be other factors much more important, such as survival of the sexiest, which through highly evolved sexual selection has made humans so much more beautiful than the other primates. That increased sexiness could be at the heart of the population issue, but perhaps that is best left for another discussion.)

I believe that our tendency for peace and love may have prevailed into the neolithic age had it not been for one primary game changer. Which in my opinion is the development of highly advanced weaponry fashioned and used primarily by men. Once slings, spears, knifes, arrows, armor, ect were introduced it then became possible for roving bands of sex crazed barbarians with their hellion offspring and snaggeltoothed women to terrorize the more peaceful earth-mother clans of the world. The only way to survive the attacks of violence perpetrated the by male dominance tendency, now backed by deadly weaponry, was more of the same( fight fire with fire). So the peace loving troops eventually where wiped out or had to develop male dominated hierarchies of their own,  in order to defend from such invasions...... thus in the game of life, dominated by the fittest(and best armed) our paleolithic ancestors had to forfeit some of their friendliness in order to survive.

This is an extreme illustration and I am sure that many of our ancestors were able to live peaceful lives out on the frontiers, unmolested by savagery, and perhaps some of us alive today are more able to identify with the more tender side of humanity, than others.... but as a general phenomenon barbarism must have had a profound effect upon our evolving psychological make up. Our collective experiences regarding general tendencies of violence, scarcity, threat of invasion,etc could explain why such an advanced civilization as America spends close to half of its wealth on a military industrial complex! Such conditioned fears inherited by the human collective subconscious( both real and imagined) are at core of much of the population control psyop propaganda being pushed by the controlled media.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 04:55:50 am by sabertooth »
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2014, 04:18:55 am »
Earlier when I was talking about "love thy neighbour" as being a necessary survival trait, I should've specified that I was referring more particularly to the "associate with your neighbour" side of it. So not the philosophical, formulated thought of "love will save us all!" way.
However let us be reminded that in nature, forming "alliances" as a survival, and socially-boosting strategy, happens in a way that has little to do with conscious act. What I mean by this is that the friendship feeling one has for another person, or love, is an unconscious expression of this "associate with thy neighbour" survival instinct. At least in part of it.

So the love you share with your family, and with your friends, has something to do with your unconscious mind forging bonds with other beings to ensure your own survival, through collaboration and mutual assistance. There's more to it in the deep, but at least that's one side of it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 04:32:54 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline Brad462

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2014, 05:37:06 am »
"Love thy neighbour" is not a survival strategy and is not really a solid part of Nature.
Sure it is.  Survival of the fittest might be true from a biological standpoint, but it is amoral.  Even people like Richard Dawkins acknowledge the moral ambiguity of SOTF.  The movie I am watching just started talking about survival of the fittest and God.  Cool coincidence.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: A sad riposte to the depopulation conspiracists here
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2014, 06:57:58 am »
The Survival of the fittest meme stems from an outdated view of biology, we need to forward more progressive explanations focused on how  the interconnections and relationships between organisms and their environment shape life on a level much more dynamic than the two dimensional view proposed by  natural selection and survival of the fittest.

The problem is that I have yet to find a catchphrase that would effective replace the Darwinian terminology.
"Survival of the symbiotic", isn't a powerful enough a term to satisfy mans egoistic striving for greatness.

"Survival of the loveliest"Survival of the delicate"Survival of the ethereal" A rose by another name is still a rose after all.

Flowers for example cannot be described as being fit, they are as frail as frail can be, but they do not need to be fit to survive, they have devised a way of producing sweet nectar and fruiting seed pods that nourish the animals and fertilize the soil which is symbiotically beneficial to many life forms. For the life bearing gifts of their fruits the animals and insects spread pollen and seeds giving the flowering plants a huge reproductive advantage. This far and wide pollination form of reproduction has allowed for a quickening of adaptive progress which in turn supports the process of symbiotic evolution in the other organisms reliant on the flowering plants for sustenance. In this way symbiotic relationships are formed in a way that there is no need for overt competition, the plants spread their nourishing seeds , rich leaves and fruiting bodies prolifically and freely throughout the environment, without care for who receives the gift, without fear of being preyed upon or taken advantage of, these ethereal and frail flowering plants have developed friendships and partnerships with the other lifeforms which have allowed them to persist, thrive, and evolve in situations that have driven many other more antagonistic forms of life to extinction.

In this view of evolution, organisms co-evolve along lines of mutual cooperation and compromise more so than that of competition and strife  . Yes when certain organisms get out of balance natural selection is still at work to bring things back into balance, like when the plant eating insects become to numerous then the predatory insect population increases until balance is restored, but this in no way makes natural selection or competition the driving force of the process of evolution, natural selection being only part of what maintains the delicate and interconnected web of life.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 07:30:43 am by sabertooth »
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

 

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